is it our falt the is no money in pool?

[mark tadd]

is it our fault there is no money in pool?

response to people at billiard digest who seems to think its the pool players responsibiliy to get more money in the game. tell me if you agree or dissagree with answer given.

















If your an example of a Champion Pool Player, then you are also an example of why this game doesn't get more money from bigger sponsers.

What have YOU or any pool player done to EARN MORE money than the current prize levels?


SacTown Tom (Was In Cincy)

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well ive put my time in the game . ive stired up action wherever ive ever gone. just being a player counts for something doesnt it? no players means no tourneys or pool rooms for that matter . played many tourneys and much expenses per year. its not the pool players responsibility to get more money in the game . we just need to be available and thats a fact. how much do you make running tournys? if you say it charity work then how do you make 700 a month playing pool? gambling? so pool players are making you 700 a month by showing up.and having the skills to show up or no 700 a month right. so what have you done to make it better for them? you do it for free well someones making money if you do it for free. if you get paid then its your responsibility to make it better for them. tiger doesnt do anything to promote golf except make a showingand having skills and the sponsers make him the money same in all sports as well as actors. the bottom line is their are more games americans like more than pool. a baseball does nothing to promote baseball. it cant talk. it is popular because of what it is and what it does and is in demand. i dont blame copper for not being able to be as popular as a diamond. it is what it is and is and will never be as popular as a diamond or gold. but diamonds and gold never said a word to promote it self. it just sparkles and shines and does what it is supposed to do. the people speak and say we want diamonds and gold and will take a little copper thus diamonds are popular and high priced and in demand with out a word out of their shiny mouth. and copper of little value. and pool vs. golf the people have spoke. bottom line is pool is not in demand in america and may never be. case closed so dont blame the players hope this helps .

 

[larrynj1]

sniff, sniff

 

[JoeyInCali]

There is no money in pool b/c some rotten people destroyed any intergrity the sport had left.
There is no more betting lines in Vegas for pool.
Players dump games like it's not a big deal.
Don Mackey screwed the pro-tour. He also cancelled the men's tv coverage by ESPN then.
I remember going to the World 8-Ball in Vegas years ago. One of Don's henchmen was scalping tickets himself. Pretty classless. Way to support your fans. Buy all good tickets to the finals then scalp them.

 

[mark tadd]

There is no money in pool b/c some rotten people destroyed any intergrity the sport had left.
There is no more betting lines in Vegas for pool.
Players dump games like it's not a big deal.
Don Mackey screwed the pro-tour. He also cancelled the men's tv coverage by ESPN then.
I remember going to the World 8-Ball in Vegas years ago. One of Don's henchmen was scalping tickets himself. Pretty classless. Way to support your fans. Buy all good tickets to the finals then scalp them.

there has been dumping in many sports and still is but that does not stop the public its in demand. mackey ? my point exactly sponsors fault

 

[JustPlay]

There will never be any big money in pool and if there is, it is not here in America. Too little of playing surface. Not enough excitment to the game to bring the sponsorship and general public to the matches and to tv.

 

[cut shot]

Don't know about this but, my Mom who knows zip about pool... stated while watching Archer play " go Johnny Go" I fell off the couch!

There will never be any big money in pool and if there is, it is not here in America. Too little of playing surface. Not enough excitment to the game to bring the sponsorship and general public to the matches and to tv.

 

[Tom In Cincy]

.its not the pool players responsibility to get more money in the game . we just need to be available and thats a fact.

Mark,

I replied on CCB and will do so here. If all you have to do is 'be available' then you are relying on others to give you a chance to make you money.

What if all the big money tournaments are invitationals (example; Allen Hopkins invitational 16 player Skins game this month $180,000 purse) what about you? With all your time and effort invested and you love of the game, you can't play in this event.

Allen Hopkins is a perfect example of a player making "things happen" rather than sitting around "being available". Hopkins Expo and tournaments.

Grady Mathews also makes 'things happen' (lots of big added tournaments over the last 10 years.
Charlie Williams also makes 'things happen' UPA org. Dragon Promotions (big added tournaments)
Buddy Hall and Steve Miserck also make 'things happen'. (Senior tour with lots of money added)


What are you going to do, or what would you suggest other pro pool players do to make 'things happen'

This is what I was referring to when I asked the question.

If you don't think I am passionate about this sport/game, you are wrong. I have done a lot to promote pool and contribute to the advancement of players, tournaments and leagues.

If you ever get a chance to visit Hard Times Billiards in Sacramento, CA. Please stop by and say hello, I am sure we could talk about the current state of pool and its future for a very long time.

 

[Sargo]

There will never be any big money in pool and if there is, it is not here in America. Too little of playing surface. Not enough excitment to the game to bring the sponsorship and general public to the matches and to tv.

Maybe it's because there are so many established games that pool has to compete with. And these games are "easier" to learn. Everyone can hit or throw a baseball, shoot a basketball, or run with a football, whereas the basic part of pool, potting a ball, is so difficult to learn and the skill is perceived as a secret that needs to be discovered or learned from others.

 

[sjm]

Allen Hopkins is a perfect example of a player making "things happen" rather than sitting around "being available". Hopkins Expo and tournaments.

Grady Mathews also makes 'things happen' (lots of big added tournaments over the last 10 years.
Charlie Williams also makes 'things happen' UPA org. Dragon Promotions (big added tournaments)
Buddy Hall and Steve Miserck also make 'things happen'. (Senior tour with lots of money added)

What are you going to do, or what would you suggest other pro pool players do to make 'things happen'

Great post, Tom. Before going on, I'll note that my comments pertain to mens pro pool only.

Success is not just about marketing, it's about having a product good enough to sell. It's easy to blame those who are unable to market the game in a way that ensures the best pros a large income. It's also easy to overlook the superb efforts of guys like Charie Williams, and other difference makers in our sport.

Some of those that do nothing to advance the quality of the pro pool product fail to realize that the product itself needs to get better, and the product is the players. A simple concept in life is that if you don't respect yourself, don't expect respect from others. Though they play wonderfully, far too many pros just don't conduct themselves with enough self-respect to be taken seriously. Take a look at how many pros present themselves. Far too many of them dress in a slovenly way, use foul language, enagage in poor sportsmanship, and go to great lengths to demonstrate that they are not the most logical banner-carriers for America's great corporations and their products.

In every corporate marketing department, it is understood that product development is as important as promotion. Pool must take notice of this.

 

[pete lafond]

Great post, Tom. Before going on, I'll note that my comments pertain to mens pro pool only.

Success is not just about marketing, it's about having a product good enough to sell. It's easy to blame those who are unable to market the game in a way that ensures the best pros a large income. It's also easy to overlook the superb efforts of guys like Charie Williams, and other difference makers in our sport.

Unfortunately marketing is EVERYTHING. Even lousy products perform well as a result of good marketing and great products have failed as a result of poor marketing. Look at presidential candidates - not one of them are great in themselves. They rely very heavily on marketing to promote their popularity, they are a product. The secret to marketing billiards is to market the great players. It's in doing this that the game becomes promoted. Good marketing can make this game very compelling. We all appreciate those that have helped the game, like Charlie Williams and such. Great efforts however they do not have the financial means to create the needed impact. If there is such a thing as governing body over pool - it's their job not to be cheap and shot-y. There is too much fragmentation and lack of entrepreneurial spirit.

 

[sjm]

Unfortunately marketing is EVERYTHING. Even lousy products perform well as a result of good marketing and great products have failed as a result of poor marketing.

Pete, I agree with most of what you wrote, but all I said was that product development is part of the marketing picture. I'm sure you'll concede that, on average , making a proudct better makes it easier to market. I just feel that in pool, we'll do our best if we remain committed to both product development and promotion.

 

[Rude Dog]

Somebody mentioned in an earlier post that the public likes numbers, i.e., averages, wins and losses, percentages, stuff like that. If the non player had something to study about pool players like a baseball fan does when he picks up the sports page to look at box scores, pool may have a bigger interest level. Is there a way to put this into the tournaments that the pros play so when the fan comes to see them play, they can see how their favorite player stacks up to the rest of the field? Just an idea, see if someone can run with it if it hasn't been tried already. Peace.

 

[sjm]

Somebody mentioned in an earlier post that the public likes numbers, i.e., averages, wins and losses, percentages, stuff like that. If the non player had something to study about pool players like a baseball fan does when he picks up the sports page to look at box scores, pool may have a bigger interest level. Is there a way to put this into the tournaments that the pros play so when the fan comes to see them play, they can see how their favorite player stacks up to the rest of the field? Just an idea, see if someone can run with it if it hasn't been tried already. Peace.

That's a great idea, Rude Dog. Even a players match record year to date would be very nformative. Also nice to know would be each player's match record against the current opponent.

Example of pre match stats in match between Player A and B

Player A 2004 Match Record 46-33
Player B 2004 Mach Record 25 - 44
Head to head in 2004, Player A leads 3 - 2.



It is a stats crazy world, and I agree that fans would like this.

 

[pete lafond]

Pete, I agree with most of what you wrote, but all I said was that product development is part of the marketing picture. I'm sure you'll concede that, on average , making a proudct better makes it easier to market. I just feel that in pool, we'll do our best if we remain committed to both product development and promotion.

Yes development is important. Here are my thoughts;
You need to begin at “almost” ground zero.
First and foremost billiards requires a strong and committed governing body. Let’s call it the B-Team for simplicity (Billiards team). The B-team should posses’ strong organizational skills, knowledge for defining specific goals and most importantly a vision for the future. Vision - how they perceive billiards to be recognized in 2 years, 3 years and so forth by the masses. It's like planning to build a company or even a house. It is this clear vision which includes, how people will react, what it looks like, what color it is, levels of enthusiasm, pull through opportunities, push through opportunities, on and on and on. And having these in place is the enabler to developing a formalized plan. This plan has a component called marketing, and marketing forms this vision into the masses minds so that they now perceive this as reality. It is not an easy task and there are many other facets to it, though it is achievable. And if done successfully a new economy evolves. Billiard suppliers, rooms, pros, and everyone benefits immensely. You won't need to worry about stats and cards, they will just start appearing.
I remember in the late 70's when I used to play pool with Auther ("Babe") Cranfield and he explained that pool does not have the right public recognition. I was saddened with thoughts of this great player, probably the best straight pool player that ever lived, would never see the truth and fairness in his abilities in a hailed gamed. He passed away. Tell a non-pool player of his great achievements in billiards, what thoughts do you think jump in their heads - smoke filled rooms, a gamblers game, drop-outs,,. Does he deserve this? Do you deserve this?
If you think that this whole thing is unrealistic, then nothing will ever happen because the desire and belief doesn’t exist.

 

[JLW]

Just a few random thoughts....

Pool does basically nothing to promote itself. I see a few commercials during the tournaments on ESPN, but aside from that, I NEVER see pool advertised on TV.

Pool is player oriented. Unlike baseball, basketball, football, etc., pool is about individuals rather than cities. If you live in Boston, you probably felt some compulsion to root for the Red Sox in the playoffs this year. If you're not really into pool, why would you care who wins some tournament in Reno?

Young people aren't introduced to pool in the same way that they are other activities. For example, how many high schools have pool teams? Odds are, if you play pool, it's because someone in your family did.

Pool does not showcase the type of athletic prowess that impresses people. Anyone who plays pool knows who difficult it is to play at the highest level, but the average person who watches a pool match does not have the knowledge necessary to understand how talented some of the players are. Pool is a lot like chess. It is a very cerebral game in many respects. However, if I see Jordan dunk from the free throw line, I am impressed.

Any thoughts?.....

 

[sjm]

Yes development is important. Here are my thoughts;
You need to begin at “almost” ground zero.
First and foremost billiards requires a strong and committed governing body. Let’s call it the B-Team for simplicity (Billiards team). The B-team should posses’ strong organizational skills, knowledge for defining specific goals and most importantly a vision for the future. Vision - how they perceive billiards to be recognized in 2 years, 3 years and so forth by the masses. It's like planning to build a company or even a house. It is this clear vision which includes, how people will react, what it looks like, what color it is, levels of enthusiasm, pull through opportunities, push through opportunities, on and on and on. And having these in place is the enabler to developing a formalized plan. This plan has a component called marketing, and marketing forms this vision into the masses minds so that they now perceive this as reality. It is not an easy task and there are many other facets to it, though it is achievable. And if done successfully a new economy evolves. Billiard suppliers, rooms, pros, and everyone benefits immensely. You won't need to worry about stats and cards, they will just start appearing.
I remember in the late 70's when I used to play pool with Auther ("Babe") Cranfield and he explained that pool does not have the right public recognition. I was saddened with thoughts of this great player, probably the best straight pool player that ever lived, would never see the truth and fairness in his abilities in a hailed gamed. He passed away. Tell a non-pool player of his great achievements in billiards, what thoughts do you think jump in their heads - smoke filled rooms, a gamblers game, drop-outs,,. Does he deserve this? Do you deserve this?
If you think that this whole thing is unrealistic, then nothing will ever happen because the desire and belief doesn’t exist.

Bravo, Pete. As you say, it's about having a vision, and really getting committed to that vision. As you further note, marketing is a huge part of how that vision can be realized.

And yes, the loss of Babe Cranfield, one of the all time greats, was very sad.

 

[pete lafond]

Just a few random thoughts....

Pool does basically nothing to promote itself. I see a few commercials during the tournaments on ESPN, but aside from that, I NEVER see pool advertised on TV.

Pool is player oriented. Unlike baseball, basketball, football, etc., pool is about individuals rather than cities. If you live in Boston, you probably felt some compulsion to root for the Red Sox in the playoffs this year. If you're not really into pool, why would you care who wins some tournament in Reno?

Young people aren't introduced to pool in the same way that they are other activities. For example, how many high schools have pool teams? Odds are, if you play pool, it's because someone in your family did.

Pool does not showcase the type of athletic prowess that impresses people. Anyone who plays pool knows who difficult it is to play at the highest level, but the average person who watches a pool match does not have the knowledge necessary to understand how talented some of the players are. Pool is a lot like chess. It is a very cerebral game in many respects. However, if I see Jordan dunk from the free throw line, I am impressed.

Any thoughts?.....

Boston doesn’t have a golf team, or tennis team, or.. They are individual sports. Billiards is a beautiful game and has a luxury other sports or games do not have. Example, imagine people actually watching it with a favorite in mind, guessing what the next move might be, getting excited about a terrific shot or position, or even a safe or a kick. See the new guy enter the pros and working his way to be king. It has what other sports have and even more. It is just that the masses don’t know it.

 

[JustPlay]

Maybe it's because there are so many established games that pool has to compete with. And these games are "easier" to learn. Everyone can hit or throw a baseball, shoot a basketball, or run with a football, whereas the basic part of pool, potting a ball, is so difficult to learn and the skill is perceived as a secret that needs to be discovered or learned from others.

Excellent Point! How many fathers & mothers sit around with other parent(s)taking about how there sons or daughters are doing in pool. Practially zero. It's more along the lines of golf, tennis, football, baseball, basketball or soccer.

 

[JLW]

Boston doesn’t have a golf team, or tennis team, or.. They are individual sports. Billiards is a beautiful game and has a luxury other sports or games do not have. Example, imagine people actually watching it with a favorite in mind, guessing what the next move might be, getting excited about a terrific shot or position, or even a safe or a kick. See the new guy enter the pros and working his way to be king. It has what other sports have and even more. It is just that the masses don’t know it.

I love to play and watch pool, and I think that it is a beautiful game that requires great skill and knowledge to be played at the highest level. But lets be honest. If a non player watches Efren Reyes run a rack of 9 ball on TV, he will probably not be that impressed by his ability because Efren will make it look easy. Most non players would likely think, with a little instruction, that they could make 9 balls in a row. How hard could that be? They do not know enough about the intricacies of the game to appreciate what Efren is doing on the table. A dunk from the free throw line is impressive not matter how ignorant you are about basketball.

As far as most popular individual sports are concerned, they have personalities that people get to know and identify with. Tennis had John McEnroe, and currently has the Williams sisters among others. Golf has Tiger Woods. People can turn on their TVs every weekend and see these people compete against one another. They come to know the players' personal quirks. Look at NASCAR. What people really get into with NASCAR is the clash of personalities between the drivers. They want to see Dale Jr. whip Jeff Gordon or see if Tony Stewart will get into it with the person who put him into the wall at the last race. My point is, they are interested in in for something beyond just the driving. Pool does not market its players or its sport. Consequently, mainstream America does not know anything about what's going on between the players. So they don't appreciate the Allison Fisher battles with Karen Corr. Knowing the history that the two players share adds a lot to the excitement of their matches.

The main point of my original post was that pool does not market itself adequately and that the public, especially young people, are not exposed to the beauty of the game. So why do they think people are going to follow it?

 

[jjinfla]

SJM,

Now you sound like the Gremlin. It looks like he has made a believer out of you. He has been pushing stats for as long as he has been here. You want stats. The men can't even give their scores.

Oh well it just looks like pool is played by a bunch of dummies. The pros pay the big bucks to participate in a tournament while the spectators get to see their performance for free. How dumb is that? Especially when the same top guns always win the big bucks.

As a spectator I think that is pretty good.

Please don't change it.

LOL

Jake