is it our falt the is no money in pool?

[sjm]

SJM,

Now you sound like the Gremlin. It looks like he has made a believer out of you. He has been pushing stats for as long as he has been here. You want stats. The men can't even give their scores.

Oh well it just looks like pool is played by a bunch of dummies. The pros pay the big bucks to participate in a tournament while the spectators get to see their performance for free. How dumb is that? Especially when the same top guns always win the big bucks.

As a spectator I think that is pretty good.

Please don't change it.

LOL

Jake

Point well taken, Jake, don't mean to ruin it for avid spectators like you and me. As for the Gremlin comment, ouch! Rest assured, there's just about nothing he and I agree on, and even though I consider it something of an honor to be hated by him, I'll never return that hate. I do hope this is the last time I'll ever post anything that causes you to compare me to Gremlin. It's something I'll certainly strive for, and if I come up short in that pursuit, I'm sure I'll find it quite humiliating.

 

[pete lafond]

I love to play and watch pool, and I think that it is a beautiful game that requires great skill and knowledge to be played at the highest level. But lets be honest. If a non player watches Efren Reyes run a rack of 9 ball on TV, he will probably not be that impressed by his ability because Efren will make it look easy. Most non players would likely think, with a little instruction, that they could make 9 balls in a row. How hard could that be? They do not know enough about the intricacies of the game to appreciate what Efren is doing on the table. A dunk from the free throw line is impressive not matter how ignorant you are about basketball.

As far as most popular individual sports are concerned, they have personalities that people get to know and identify with. Tennis had John McEnroe, and currently has the Williams sisters among others. Golf has Tiger Woods. People can turn on their TVs every weekend and see these people compete against one another. They come to know the players' personal quirks. Look at NASCAR. What people really get into with NASCAR is the clash of personalities between the drivers. They want to see Dale Jr. whip Jeff Gordon or see if Tony Stewart will get into it with the person who put him into the wall at the last race. My point is, they are interested in in for something beyond just the driving. Pool does not market its players or its sport. Consequently, mainstream America does not know anything about what's going on between the players. So they don't appreciate the Allison Fisher battles with Karen Corr. Knowing the history that the two players share adds a lot to the excitement of their matches.

The main point of my original post was that pool does not market itself adequately and that the public, especially young people, are not exposed to the beauty of the game. So why do they think people are going to follow it?

I understand your point and I do agree with the importance of it. Please, this only my opinion. Much like newly elected presidents set trends with - clothes - religion - food, and how baseball after losing popularity picked up during the home run race of named players- it’s people that cause people to move and change. Phase 1 - market the players, Phase 2 - market billiards. Create an interest in someone and you'll see heads turn. People want heroes and then people want to knock them down again. It's just all part of it. In your head imagine the most repulsive person you have ever meet, now imagine them selling lipstick - doesn’t work does it? Now, picture lipstick being sold in a commercial without a person. Just a tube with some words or maybe an UNFAMILIAR voice in the back ground. Again doesn't work well. Now take an accomplished person, somebody who has really achieved something significant or someone hot. It works. It does not matter whether its lipstick, clothes or billiards that they are selling.. And it doesn’t matter if their attractive or not. Worst case the commercial makes a funny out of it and we all accept. We need to glorify some expert players, make them rich and then have them sell lipstick (billiards). Again I'll take any criticism; my only interest is to see success in billiards.

 

[mark tadd]

Mark,

I replied on CCB and will do so here. If all you have to do is 'be available' then you are relying on others to give you a chance to make you money.

What if all the big money tournaments are invitationals (example; Allen Hopkins invitational 16 player Skins game this month $180,000 purse) what about you? With all your time and effort invested and you love of the game, you can't play in this event.

Allen Hopkins is a perfect example of a player making "things happen" rather than sitting around "being available". Hopkins Expo and tournaments.

Grady Mathews also makes 'things happen' (lots of big added tournaments over the last 10 years.
Charlie Williams also makes 'things happen' UPA org. Dragon Promotions (big added tournaments)
Buddy Hall and Steve Miserck also make 'things happen'. (Senior tour with lots of money added)


What are you going to do, or what would you suggest other pro pool players do to make 'things happen'

This is what I was referring to when I asked the question.

If you don't think I am passionate about this sport/game, you are wrong. I have done a lot to promote pool and contribute to the advancement of players, tournaments and leagues.

If you ever get a chance to visit Hard Times Billiards in Sacramento, CA. Please stop by and say hello, I am sure we could talk about the current state of pool and its future for a very long time.

well i think my original post summed it up. it seems you are trying to find a loop hole, but you wont be able to. all the guys you mentioned have been in the game for as long as many people that post here have been alive. they have credit so can make some thing happed but are limited to somethings.
they are making things happed withing their realm , but thats not adding money in the game FOR ALL. how does what all the people you mentioned put money in the pros pocket? a seniors tour ? though im glad its going but hardly helps the seniors or non seniors. im glad they are doing it but basically all it is doing is giving seniors somrthing to do. does 16th place pay 20,000? i think not the only person that makes money are the people that run it and the winner . which wont be the same winner all the time. the only person that makes money at the expo is allen. i think it great that he is smart enough to have been sucessful in his buisiness, but all that does is give pool players and non pool players some more pool ware to but. you may as well have made your point with people who own pool rooms cause its the same comparison. ypur grasping at straws and quickly drowning what have i done well i dont own a pool room which would only make me money not players. i dont have a tour which would make me some money. i dont have a part in the expo which would only make me money. as a matter of fact i havent been aroun in 9 years . bottom line is all this stuff you mentioned does not make pool touring pros money just a service which cost money unless these people you mentioning are adding huge amounts of money to the pool community you have only mentioned buissineses but what does that have to do with adding more money to pool tournys as a whole? no doubt we need these supplies but it isnt helping make pool richer just the people who own them. thats no different than if a pool player quit pool and became a lawyer . good for him but how does that help the touring pro unless he needs a lawyer. some pool supplies and sticks i see now days are very expensive. dont know how that helps us............thats all we need are more pro shops? more tours? just played in a bar table tourny . $5 green fee $60 entery fee. $4500 in the pot.
including added monet first prize......... $850?....... the way the divide the money in some of these tournys is nuts. i understand the reasoning but its tough to make money for the player. they did it for the same reason they changed to texas express. how does all these points you made make the touring pro money? also i think you taking my BEING AVAILABLE out of context or not understanding what i mean by it. first as i said in my original post is you need to have the skills first. jon doe that runs a rack once every other day cant do what allen is doing with 180,000 tourny? im assuming your are saying this is allens tourny ? or is he just running it. did he literly go out and get a sponser all by himself? or did they find him because he had the available skills? either way he earned the spot because hes got the skills.
you said i cant play in it? only 16 players max? ok how does that help the touring pros? and even then they are not all going to win. why not 128 players? well i dont know what else to say i think you are not giving a very convincing argument . to me you gave examples of buissines men making money . doesnt help touring pros make a living only a few as always and mostly the buissinesmen.....

 

[jjinfla]

Mark,

How would you suggest the money be awarded? Just be divided among the top three finishers?

If tournaments were all run that way, and there was no handicapping, then how many lower level players would bother to enter? It would be a certainity that the best players would always win. And without the lower level players there would be no money for prizes. Most of them are just donating their entry fee anyway and know they have little or no chance to win it all.

Now this applies to all types of tournaments. No matter the type of tournament, bar, amateur, pro, half of the entrants are in the lower half of the skill level of that particular tournament and really have no chance to finish in the top three.

In the example you give if $4,500 is collected in fees from the players and $4,500 is paid out in prize money, then tell me how a TD or a pool room owner makes money on that? The pool room owner is losing table rental for the whole day. To me it is a big loss for pool room owners. Especially if most of the players are not spending money over the bar because all they are doing is drinking water or soda.

Jake

 

[piglit]

...a seniors tour ? though im glad its going but hardly helps the seniors or non seniors. im glad they are doing it but basically all it is doing is giving seniors somrthing to do. does 16th place pay 20,000? ...

Are you that warped? How is it that you can say that the 15th best loser should get 20k?!

Did you know that there are MILLONS of people out there that work all year to make 20k? It's called the $10/hr job.

To think a pool player should be entitled to a shot at making that in a week, or even a weekend, shows you are not like the average person (as if the level of pool you play wasn't enough of an indication...!).

-pigi

 

[pete lafond]

Are you that warped? How is it that you can say that the 15th best loser should get 20k?!

Did you know that there are MILLONS of people out there that work all year to make 20k? It's called the $10/hr job.

To think a pool player should be entitled to a shot at making that in a week, or even a weekend, shows you are not like the average person (as if the level of pool you play wasn't enough of an indication...!).

-pigi

They do not win 15th palce every week. And what is wrong if a pro gets paid by sponsor $10,000 just to show up to a tounament and how about $20,000 for 15th place. I hope I can see this happen. Pay the pro pool players. I want to see the top 15 palyers have an opportunity to make at least $500,000 / year to millions. Now we are talking.

 

[Williebetmore]

And what is wrong if a pro gets paid by sponsor $10,000 just to show up to a tounament and how about $20,000 for 15th place. I hope I can see this happen. Pay the pro pool players. I want to see the top 15 palyers have an opportunity to make at least $500,000 / year to millions. .

Pete,
I guess I would have to disagree. Let me look at the short list of professions that I would like to see make good money - doctor, fireman, policeman, soldier, teacher, farmer, construction worker. These are people who produce something valuable, or provide a valuable service to society. Lawyers, entertainers, athletes - not on my list.

I cringe when I hear people say, "well if you don't like high paid athletes, you don't have to go to their games." Unfortunately, when the local grocery chain advertises on the Pacers and Colts telecasts, that cost is passed directly to all the consumers, whether they are fans or not. The sponsors you want to see kick in big dollars will just pass the cost on to me, whether I like it or not.

Pool is a great sport, play it if you love it - don't expect it to make you rich.

 

[pete lafond]

Lets break this down from a Business standpoint...(which it is)

I understand accounting quite well. My point isn't to squeeze out money were it does not exists.

1. Players are not employees. They can be better viewed as independents. Do not reduce them.

2. I want players to make so much money, they are fat and rich. Just like any other well noted sports hero. It's good for the game.

3. The pros are the reason why many of us play the game. If the game had zero notoriety, believe me there would be even fewer players. Pay them. Figure it out - there is no magic here. See my earlier article about promoting the game. I hope I'm not the only one with these thoughts, because if I am there will be another 50 years before this game gets the recognition it deserves.

Thanks

 

[pete lafond]

Pete,
I guess I would have to disagree. Let me look at the short list of professions that I would like to see make good money - doctor, fireman, policeman, soldier, teacher, farmer, construction worker. These are people who produce something valuable, or provide a valuable service to society. Lawyers, entertainers, athletes - not on my list.

How many people of these positions that you know are in the top of their field? Take the TOP. Doctor - 1 million a year plus, fireman - these are on the scale of civil servants and are not money generators, no need to state, policeman - same as fireman, solder - same again, teacher - top universities they get paid well. Farmer -if he did not expand off- shore then he's just a businessman that lost an opportunity, the top ones make millions, construction worker - owns a big company and lots of bucks will follow. Again you need to take the people at the top of their field and not everyone. I am in no way stating that all pool players that play should make a bunch. Restrict to pros, and make people qualify as pro before entering an event. If you are going to attack an industry, attack Hollywood. What about Oprah. She has no value. The woman has average intelligence. People actually watch her show. And talk about twisted. Most the working class is working when she's on TV. She is getting paid by the non-working class. They figured that out too. There are other senseless talk shows on TV as well. I just randomly picked her. - I don't get jealous about this. And Hollywood, this is a class by itself. Most people can act just as easily as they can. They have the technology to manufacture a good product. Hollywood even closes the door to family and friends, this is a closed environment. At least in sports you have to be good to be at the top, otherwise you don’t win. The money spent on pros salaries is so minute when you buy a product. You pay much more in the taxes when buying that product. .

 

[!Smorgass Bored]

It's not my fault that there's no money in pool.... I'm losing as fast as I can.

 

[JLW]

I think in the end it all comes down to economics. Pool players do not make large sums of money because they do not generate the same kind of revenue that other athletes do. Go into a local bar or restaurant and ask someone if they know who Efren Reyes is. Or Allison Fisher. Or even Willie Mosconi, for God's sake. Then ask if they know who Kobe Bryant is, or Tiger Woods. If pool tournaments got NBA or NFL or PGA ratings, pool players would get NBA and NFL and PGA type salaries. Take the example someone brought up of Oprah. She makes the enormous amount of money she makes because of the even more enormous amount of money she generates. If you knew that you could give me $1000 and I would give you $10,000 in return, would you do it? Why does Jim Carrey make more money than Robert DeNiro? Because his films make more money. Worth as an actor has nothing to do with it. It's all about the return on the Studio's investment. I don't think there's any way professional pool players will ever make large sums of money until the game is marketed better and consumers begin to follow the game more.

 

[bruin70]

players aren't responsible for making the game appealing. they play, they aren't businessmen. however, they are part of pool's image.

pool is a small game in a big sport society. no one wants to watch two guyz walk around a 9' playing area, doing what looks like an easy thing to do. but they'll watch jeanette bend over the table.

and 9ball is too easy for the pros, and they make it look easy. make the game harder or play 8ball. the general public doesn't play 9ball, they play "stripes and solids". 8ball is a better game anyway.

 

[JustPlay]

Like billiard industry has stated before, This is as good as it gets. If we are lucky another Camel like tour may pop up in the future, but that is it. The other night (Sun. Nov. 14, 04) Walter Ray Williams Jr., won another bowling title and won $40,000 without a frame being edited for time. The first step for pool is to have LIVE TV time, not taped and played at a later date matches.....

 

[pete lafond]

players aren't responsible for making the game appealing. they play, they aren't businessmen. however, they are part of pool's image.

pool is a small game in a big sport society. no one wants to watch two guyz walk around a 9' playing area, doing what looks like an easy thing to do. but they'll watch jeanette bend over the table.

and 9ball is too easy for the pros, and they make it look easy. make the game harder or play 8ball. the general public doesn't play 9ball, they play "stripes and solids". 8ball is a better game anyway.

It is not up to the pool players to market themselves, except through excellent play which is a different marketing layer. Did someone say they were supposed to? How could anyone even read into something like this? That would not any sense at all. Billiards needs a governing body that markets the players, not the players marketing themselves. Now that makes sense. And - If you think that people want to see Jennet Lee bend over because she's a woman you really are missing a lot. Think about it. It's much more than that, and at least some are marketing exactly what I spoke about earlier.

 

[pete lafond]

I was not trying to reduce them...just saying it like it is...Calling them independents is fine...But the Independents are still being hired and payed by someone...

I want the pros to make a zillion dollars as well...As they make more money it will get more ameatures involved that will strive to be pros as well...and the talent pool will get deeper and deeper...However it will not happen overnight..It will take many years...a lot of good organization amonge the owners and ALL the Indepentent contractors... I said in an earlier post somewhere that Men's pro pool is on its way to recovery...If The owners can not be greedy and stab the players in the back...and the players can not be greedy and stay together and not split the tours so to speak...It will gain momentum again....

Unfortunatly....It may take some MAGIC to get it done...Thats what it took for Basketball....(MAGIC AND BIRD) Golf (Jack and Tiger) Tennis (Macenroe and Connor) Football (Jim Brown and Johnny Unites) Womens pool (Allison and Karen) ....and owners that recognized and capitalized on the marketing of them....

Very, very well said. However, everyone seems to think that we need to wait for opportunities and to seize them. Rather we need to create or our own opportunities and run with them. Unfortunately there is too much fragmentation, no direction and this all requires an entrepreneurial governing body with a vision.

 

[bruin70]

And - If you think that people want to see Jennet Lee bend over because she's a woman you really are missing a lot. Think about it. It's much more than that, and at least some are marketing exactly what I spoke about earlier.

i don't know if people WANT to see jl,,,but it is what they remember. and maybe it's just good marketing. in a boring game with no public interest, the women have become more high profile than the men.

and if it's good marketing, then what are the women marketing if it's not themselves. it's certainly not the game, because joe public cannot differentiate between the mens and womens game. so the women are marketing themselves., whether they care to admit it or not. yup,,,,,joe public wants to see jl bend over.

 

[mark tadd]

Pete,
I guess I would have to disagree. Let me look at the short list of professions that I would like to see make good money - doctor, fireman, policeman, soldier, teacher, farmer, construction worker. These are people who produce something valuable, or provide a valuable service to society. Lawyers, entertainers, athletes - not on my list.

I cringe when I hear people say, "well if you don't like high paid athletes, you don't have to go to their games." Unfortunately, when the local grocery chain advertises on the Pacers and Colts telecasts, that cost is passed directly to all the consumers, whether they are fans or not. The sponsors you want to see kick in big dollars will just pass the cost on to me, whether I like it or not.

Pool is a great sport, play it if you love it - don't expect it to make you rich.

what does your not liking sports heros making more than a fireman have to do with the way things are in realty? i agree i think many professions deserve more than sports figures. but in this day and age its not like that therefore we have a shot to make as much as lawyer.

 

[pete lafond]

i don't know if people WANT to see jl,,,but it is what they remember. and maybe it's just good marketing. in a boring game with no public interest, the women have become more high profile than the men.

and if it's good marketing, then what are the women marketing if it's not themselves. it's certainly not the game, because joe public cannot differentiate between the mens and womens game. so the women are marketing themselves., whether they care to admit it or not. yup,,,,,joe public wants to see jl bend over.

(You understand almost half of it. I'll settle for that.)

With regard to boring, have you ever been in a bar when someone really good is shooting? I mean kicking butt. All of the sudden people who don't even play pool stop and begin watching with interest. Why? Most likely someone who does play mentions that the individual shooting is really good - spikes everyone’s interest to watch. Sorry, I can't buy boring. Are you a skydiver, cliff diver,..? I appreciate your opinion. Maybe you’re just discouraged or simply a negative person. My opinion, I think discouraged is more like it. Given that, I understand.

 

[Williebetmore]

what does your not liking sports heros making more than a fireman have to do with the way things are in realty? .

MT,
It just makes the point that any athlete or entertainer is not ENTITLED to the money they are making (based on their production of goods and/or services). I agree with you that they would be silly not to take what is offered, and make whatever the market will bear. But, having said that, it is the mark of sick society when athletes and entertainers make that much more than the working man (at least that is the opinion of Gibbon in "The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire").

 

[Zagiflyer]

No money in professional pool?

I've often wondered, and it's been the subject of discussion at the pool hall where I play, why there isn't more money for the top players in this sport. Anybody who has played the game seriously for any lenght of time realizes the tremendous difficulty involved in playing the game at anywhere near the top level. It's a great,difficult game that is widely played so you would think that there would be more money involved. If you look at individual sports that have wide appeal (and I don't mean sports like auto racing where almost nobody can afford to actually participate) it seems that golf and tennis would be the 2 most comparable sports to professional billiards. Both of these sports offer a lot more money to the top practitioners than billiards, what accounts for the difference? I have some theories:

In order for there to be a lot of money in the game you need to generate corporate sponsorship. The corporations are generally looking for a sport with either a huge following that appeals to a large range of people (football, basketball, baseball) or a sport with a more limited but wealthier audience like golf and tennis. I would theorize that that the success of professional golf and tennis is a result of the "country club effect" or "WASP effect." Lots of people play golf and tennis and pool; but if you had to compare the 3 games I would say that the average income of the typical golf/tennis palyer is much higher than that of the average pool player. Lots of rich older people play golf and tennis but you don't see many of them in pool halls, additionally, I believe that golf and tennis have a larger appeal to women than pool. Maybe the WPBA can change that. Like it or not, pool is more of a "blue collar" game and tennis/golf are more "white collar" games which is more attractive to advertisers selling expensive things. If you were to walk into your average golf/tennis/country club then walk into your local pool hall you would see a difference and that difference is what attracts advertisers to golf and tennis and keeps them away from pool. It's unfortunate that it is this way especially when you consider the beauty of pool as a game when it's played seriously. The game deserves a more classy reputation than it currently has.

Another problem I see with pool is that is difficult for a large number of people to see it live and in-person. The actual playing field for pool (4.5 X 9 ft) is very small when compared to a tennis court or a golf course. The practical number of people that can be situated around a pool table and have a good view of the action is limited. I've seen pictures of pool tournaments and exhibitions from the late 19th and early 20th century and they were played in miniture stadiums with tiered bleachers on all sides of the table. It would be neat if we could ever get back to that, but in practice I wonder how many people can actually see the action in that type of venue.

I also think that pool is not very well understood by most people, even people who have played the game. There are lots of people who "play pool" but only a small percentage of them really understand the rules of the games let alone the more subtle skills like position play, english and strategy. I also find it unusual that the most widely played professional game is 9-ball, while 8-ball is probably the game that the most players are familiar with due to it's prevelance in bars and home games. I'm not arguing the relative merits of the games because they are all great (if I had my way the pros would still play straight pool in tournaments but this would kill the mass-market appeal and make the game all but unwatchable except for hardcore pool fans who really understand what's involved) I would think that 8-ball palyed with special balls without numbers (7 identical solids and 7 identical stripes plus a black ball) would be very easy for most viewers to follow because everyone has played 8-ball.

Lastly, I think that there is simply too much competition out there. There are so many games and sports that compete for people's attention that it's hard to break off enough "business" for a successful, visable and highly sponsored pro billiards tour. I hope that some day we get to the level where the top 25 or so pros can earn good livings (including paid expenses and travel) and have sponsorship that enables a pro series to be well advertised and attended. It would also help if we had a "hero." I believe that Steve Mizerak in the old Miller Light commercials was the last time a pro player was recognizable to the general public. Our sport needs a Tiger Woods, an articulate, presentable top player to attract fans and advertisers.