Is it possible for a cue repair person to fit a taper roll out in a shaft?

J

justinb386

Banned
Maybe I should put this question in the "ask cue maker" section, but I thought I would get a faster reply from posting here.

I have a Joss cue that has some taper roll out in the shaft (with the roll out being seen when the shaft is rolled, but the tip staying flat on the table).

I am assuming that this happens when ever a shaft gets tapered down to a longer taper length.

I assume that the shaft is still straight, because the tip stays flat on the table when it is rolled, but the taper roll out can be seen all the way down the tapered down shaft (when it is rolled on a pool table).

I am curious if a taper roll out can be fixed (some how) by re tapering the shaft (I am guessing it is not possible, but am just curious).

I am also curious if most players consider this type of issue (with a taper roll out) to be a problem (thinking of the taper roll out to be a warp in the shaft), or do most players expect most cues to at least have some taper roll out in the shaft?

Sorry if my questions are stupid.

I get a lot of silly questions in my head.

I just want to be sure that most players do not consider a taper roll out to be a warp in the shaft.

If the tip stays flat on the table when the shaft is rolled (together, or apart), then that means the shaft is straight, right?

Thanks for your opinions about this type of issue on shafts.
 
First, a small roll if the tip doesn't leave the table won't affect your playing beyond that you know its there and bugs the crap outta ya. I can sympathize.

I'm pretty anal when it come to my equipment but a few of my shafts have a small roll and I don't allow it to bother me. Now, a ding in your bridge hand space is a different animal.

Laminated shafts can be straightened quite easily.

I built a warp taker outter jig that I use surgical tubing/steam with. I have had anywhere from great to varying degrees of success with it.

Wood has a mind of its own. It might gain a small roll, you can remove it for a certain length of time and it may find its comfort zone again and roll, or it may stay straight forever.

I have it on text file on my other computer but if you were to do a search on AZ for taper roll, shaft warps etc, Craig Rittel (Manwon) wrote a decent article on taking out taper rolls with steam.

It was a little trick that was taught to him by a Japanese wood worker.

This is something that you can do at home.

Maybe some of the other posters that seem to be good at using the Search Function can dig that old post up for you. Craig hasn't been around for some time, other wise he would be available. Maybe he still reads here so he might see this.

Wish I could help you more on this but that is why I make text files. Its OAMP. Old age memory problems and I can't remember exactly the procedure that Craig outlined. My new PC isn't hooked up yet. I'm sure that the post is in the archives somewhere on AZ, just have to do a bit of archeology.

Also, don't be shy to ask your question in the Ask the Maker forum. They don't usually bite as there are no such things as Stupid questions, just stupid answers. There is a difference between a small roll that maybe occurred when hand sanding to final size and an actual warp that you know, just happened for whatever reason. But thats just my small opinion. I have had an entire cue, (2) shaft and all go major banana shape on me from one day to the next.
One was a cheap break cue and it still breaks the same, straight or banana so I didn't worry about it.

Terry.
 
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Thanks for your helpful reply. I will look for that thread you referred to. So a taper roll out is considered a warp? I know that there is also another method that players use to test the straightness of a cue, and not sure if it is better. One player showed me a method where you roll the cue on the rail, with the butt on the table, and if the shaft wobbles at all (in the air), then it is considered warped. Is this a method that most players use to test the straightness of a cue? Just curious, because if that is true, then any taper roll out would make the cue appear to be warped (I think) using the rail roll method. Thanks.

Blue Hog ridr said:
First, a small roll if the tip doesn't leave the table won't affect your playing beyond that you know its there and bugs the crap outta ya. I can sympathize.

I'm pretty anal when it come to my equipment but a few of my shafts have a small roll and I don't allow it to bother me. Now, a ding in your bridge hand space is a different animal.

Laminated shafts can be straightened quite easily.

I built a warp taker outter jig that I use surgical tubing/steam with. I have had anywhere from great to varying degrees of success with it.

Wood has a mind of its own. It might gain a small roll, you can remove it for a certain length of time and it may find its comfort zone again and roll, or it may stay straight forever.

I have it on text file on my other computer but if you were to do a search on AZ for taper roll, shaft warps etc, Craig Rittel (Manwon) wrote a decent article on taking out taper rolls with steam.

It was a little trick that was taught to him by a Japanese wood worker.

This is something that you can do at home.

Maybe some of the other posters that seem to be good at using the Search Function can dig that old post up for you. Craig hasn't been around for some time, other wise he would be available. Maybe he still reads here so he might see this.

Wish I could help you more on this but that is why I make text files. Its OAMP. Old age memory problems and I can't remember exactly the procedure that Craig outlined. My new PC isn't hooked up yet. I'm sure that the post is in the archives somewhere on AZ, just have to do a bit of archeology.

Also, don't be shy to ask your question in the Ask the Maker forum. They don't usually bite as there are no such things as Stupid questions, just stupid answers. There is a difference between a small roll that maybe occurred when hand sanding to final size and an actual warp that you know, just happened for whatever reason. But thats just my small opinion. I have had an entire cue, (2) shaft and all go major banana shape on me from one day to the next.
One was a cheap break cue and it still breaks the same, straight or banana so I didn't worry about it.

Terry.
Click to expand...
 
I found Craig's post for you.


Ok as promised this is the method I was taught to straighten a shaft, be prepared it's long post:

“How to straighten a pool cue shaft”


First let me say all warped shafts can not be straightened, the following points of interest are things that may point to internal stress in the wood that has not been relieved, or methods of poor handling that can result in a shaft causing stress to wood objects. However, all or none of what I have listed below could have been the cause of a shaft warping. Shafts warp due to wood that has not been properly stress relieved. Now this internal stress can be natural which is normal for all wood once it is cut and when it is being processed. Or it can be man made by abuse or by improper handling / treatment of the wood by some one using one of the following methods.


1. Turned to finished size to fast. (Such as taking a 1 inch dowel and turning it to finished size in a afternoon)

2. Shafts that have excessive non-straight grain. (Sometimes this can be used to identify a problem and sometimes shafts like this will stay straight forever)

3. Shafts that have been exposed to unstable conditions such as, high temperatures or low temperatures. ( Leaving your cue in your automobile summer and winter can cause a shaft to warp, along with many other problems, but wood is wood and sometimes this will not have an effect concerning a shaft warping. However, it will cause expanding and contraction that will cause inlays to pop, materials to expand or to shrink which will cause many types of damage.)

4. Shafts that were exposed to excessive amounts of moisture for extended periods of time. (This is very easy to understand keep all items that are made from wood dry, moisture will cause swelling and as it dries shrinkage which in most cases will damage any pool cue.)


Things you will need to straighten a shaft:

1. Lead Pencil
2. Flat Surface
3. A single burner Electric Stove
4. A method to hang the shaft with the cues butt attached
5. A method or device that you can use to bend the shaft


The first step to making a warped shaft straight again is finding the highest point of the warp. Now keep this in mind, in some cases when a shaft warps the internal stress will cause it to bend at more than a single location, so you will have to fix one bend at a time. I have seen and fixed shafts that had multiple bends ( 3 or 4) and while this seems like a situation where a shaft can not be fixed that is not always the case, so the key is patients, this is something you will need a lot of LOL. The best way to find the high point is to roll the shaft on a flat level surface such as a pool table, but any flat surface will work. Now this is not the method I would use to check a shaft for straightness, I would recommend placing the shaft between centers on a lathe and spinning it, then using a dial indicator to determine how much movement there is. But most do not have a lathe so rolling the shaft on a flat surface is an alternate method that anyone can do to find the high point of the warp. Next mark the high point of the warp with a pencil so that you can find it before you make your first bend of the shaft ( The first bend should be done without heat so I call it a Cold Bend)

Once you have found the high point of the shaft and marked it you are ready to make your first bend. Hold the shaft flat to the surface you are bending it upon and lift up on the joint side of the shaft, holding the marked area flat to the table. Then roll the shaft and see if the marked high point is still the high point. In many cases it will move a little because what you thought was the high point may not have been, or there may have been more than a single area that warped. It may take a couple of bends until you get the shaft as straight as possible bending it cold, then hang the shaft with or without the butt attached for 24 to 48 hour’s.

After it has hung for one of the times listed above check the shaft for straightness and to see if any of the original warp may have returned. Either way it is time to roll the shaft and again find the high point and mark it with a pencil. Then heat up your single burner electric stove, when it is fully heated holding the shaft about 2 to 3 inches from the mark on both sides place the marked area above the coil of the electric single burner stove, and keep the shaft a good distance away from burner so that it does not mark the shaft. If you are too close you will know it because it will burn your hands, that is why you are holding it two to three inches on either side of the mark. When the wood and your hands start to get warm place the shaft on the flat surface and bend it again. Again this may take a couple of times but the shaft should straighten out for the most part at this time then hang it again for 24 to 48 hour’s. After that time has passed again check the shaft by rolling it on the same flat surface you have been using to check and see if the warp has returned.

If there has been any movement, again mark the high point and get out your Electric stove and heat the shaft as mentioned before, At this point after a few bends along with heating the shaft it should be straight, but to be on the safe side again hang it for a minimum of 24 hour’s. If the wood doesn’t move your good to go, if it moves at this point it is most likely the best it will ever get and to my knowledge there is nothing else that can be done to correct the problem.
 
One thing that I forgot to mention, OAMP again, is that the slightest amount of chalk, dirt etc, on the face of your shaft or butt joint can make the shaft roll a bit.

Before you start bending, have a look. You can clean the face with a Magic Eraser, alcohol on a paper towel or even your finger nail.

You could also have a repair man face both joints for you.

You'd be amazed that just a tiny bit of dirt on the face can make the shaft roll a bit funny.

If it just a credit card/dime width, its nothing to worry about. You could try a cold bend first and see. Straightening a laminated shaft is just done with a cold bend.

I've had to do both my Predator shafts numerous times.
 
roll

the Jacoby tool for taking out taper rolls works perfectly. easy to use. anybody can do it. the roll stays fixed.
 
i'm still trying to figure out just what the hell "taper roll" is,
and who it was that first coined that phrase.

he should go down in billiard history for being creative and inventive

betcha it was a guy selling a cue with a WARPED shaft;)
so, just say it's warped a little, a lot, whatever and be done with it

a warp is a warp is a warp




 
BHQ said:
i'm still trying to figure out just what the hell "taper roll" is,
and who it was that first coined that phrase.

he should go down in billiard history for being creative and inventive

betcha it was a guy selling a cue with a WARPED shaft;)
so, just say it's warped a little, a lot, whatever and be done with it

a warp is a warp is a warp




Click to expand...

For real.

Its warped and nothing else but warped.

Some can be fixed by number of different methods. Some of those will stay fixed and some will not. There are no guarantees other than the fact that a small to medium warp affects nothing.
 
While taper roll may actually be the same as warped, it does seem to provide a term that differentiates between a tip that leaves the table and one that doesn't, a critical distinction in determining a shaft's suitability for use.

As you might guess; as long as the ferrule stays straight, that's good enough for me.

I say don't worry about it and be happy it isn't worse. In me experienc, wood goes where it wants to. You might end up fixing tha shiit over and over again, for 0 functional improvement.
 
justinb386 said:
Maybe I should put this question in the "ask cue maker" section, but I thought I would get a faster reply from posting here.

I have a Joss cue that has some taper roll out in the shaft (with the roll out being seen when the shaft is rolled, but the tip staying flat on the table).

I am assuming that this happens when ever a shaft gets tapered down to a longer taper length.

I assume that the shaft is still straight, because the tip stays flat on the table when it is rolled, but the taper roll out can be seen all the way down the tapered down shaft (when it is rolled on a pool table).

I am curious if a taper roll out can be fixed (some how) by re tapering the shaft (I am guessing it is not possible, but am just curious).

I am also curious if most players consider this type of issue (with a taper roll out) to be a problem (thinking of the taper roll out to be a warp in the shaft), or do most players expect most cues to at least have some taper roll out in the shaft?

Sorry if my questions are stupid.

I get a lot of silly questions in my head.

I just want to be sure that most players do not consider a taper roll out to be a warp in the shaft.

If the tip stays flat on the table when the shaft is rolled (together, or apart), then that means the shaft is straight, right?

Thanks for your opinions about this type of issue on shafts.
Click to expand...

Have always been curious to the difference in a so-called taper roll and a warp?
 
BHQ said:
i'm still trying to figure out just what the hell "taper roll" is,
and who it was that first coined that phrase.

he should go down in billiard history for being creative and inventive

betcha it was a guy selling a cue with a WARPED shaft;)
so, just say it's warped a little, a lot, whatever and be done with it

a warp is a warp is a warp




Click to expand...

I didn't read the other post before I made mine, and I agree with you. Its just a nice way of saying warped with words that confuse that fact.
 
RRfireblade said:
For real.

Its warped and nothing else but warped.

Some can be fixed by number of different methods. Some of those will stay fixed and some will not. There are no guarantees other than the fact that a small to medium warp affects nothing.
Click to expand...

I asked a well known cue builder, could a shaft be straightened and he claimed a warped shaft cannot be straightened and stay that way.
 
BHQ said:
i'm still trying to figure out just what the hell "taper roll" is,
and who it was that first coined that phrase.

he should go down in billiard history for being creative and inventive

betcha it was a guy selling a cue with a WARPED shaft;)
so, just say it's warped a little, a lot, whatever and be done with it

a warp is a warp is a warp




Click to expand...

The non concentric joint = taper roll and has been explained over and over. It means either the pin is not in the center of the butt and the back few inches of the shaft was turned to match the butt. Or it means the shaft threads were not put in dead center and the back few inches of the shaft was turned to match the butt. Either way Taper Roll is not a warp, but will cause the shaft to show daylight as it is rolled. If it has that type of roll it will not be taken out by a repairman.

I heard the phrase from a retailer in the 1970's. The term has been abused to include warps, but I repeat "Non-Concentric joint installation = Taper Roll" and is not a warp.
The mis-match in front and back shaft tapers creates the illusion of a warp.
 
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Unless you are selling the cue it really doesn't matter. I have shafts that have a slight taper roll or warp that play as good as anything or better, even the straightest shaft I own. Of course there is a point when too much is too much- in that case I would get a new shaft made with the old ringwork.
 
Yeah, I assumed that taper roll outs happen when ever a shaft gets tapered down to a longer taper. When you receive a brand new Joss shaft from the factory, it usually has very little taper roll out. If you taper that shaft town, to give it a longer taper, then that gives the appearance of what is called a taper roll out when the shaft is rolled. So, people need to know that a taper roll out is not the same as a warp. I do not think you can warp a shaft by getting it tapered down to have a longer taper, and I assume that is what gives a shaft a taper roll out. So just as long as the tip and ferrule stay flat on the table when the cue (and the shaft) is rolled, then that cue should be considered straight, right? A taper roll out that was caused by a shaft being tapered down (to give it a longer taper) should not be considered a warp, right? Thanks for your replies. I just wanted to know about other players opinions on this, and the proper way to test a cue for straightness.

cueman said:
The non concentric joint = taper roll and has been explained over and over. It means either the pin is not in the center of the butt and the back few inches of the shaft was turned to match the butt. Or it means the shaft threads were not put in dead center and the back few inches of the shaft was turned to match the butt. Either way Taper Roll is not a warp, but will cause the shaft to show daylight as it is rolled. If it has that type of roll it will not be taken out by a repairman.

I heard the phrase from a retailer in the 1970's. The term has been abused to include warps, but I repeat "Non-Concentric joint installation = Taper Roll" and is not a warp.
The mis-match in front and back shaft tapers creates the illusion of a warp.
Click to expand...
 
Well, I am trading in the Joss for a Meucci, and was just trying to explain to the person (that is offering me the trade) about the taper roll out. I just want to try to be as honest as possible. I hope that I am not wrong about taper roll outs, but I really do not know the facts about them.

Schwinn said:
Unless you are selling the cue it really doesn't matter. I have shafts that have a slight taper roll or warp that play as good as anything or better, even the straightest shaft I own. Of course there is a point when too much is too much- in that case I would get a new shaft made with the old ringwork.
Click to expand...
 
What you said makes sense, but a taper roll out can also happen if the thicker part of a shaft gets turned down at all to lengthen the taper of the shaft, right? Thanks for your reply. This stuff is interesting to me.

cueman said:
The non concentric joint = taper roll and has been explained over and over. It means either the pin is not in the center of the butt and the back few inches of the shaft was turned to match the butt. Or it means the shaft threads were not put in dead center and the back few inches of the shaft was turned to match the butt. Either way Taper Roll is not a warp, but will cause the shaft to show daylight as it is rolled. If it has that type of roll it will not be taken out by a repairman.

I heard the phrase from a retailer in the 1970's. The term has been abused to include warps, but I repeat "Non-Concentric joint installation = Taper Roll" and is not a warp.
The mis-match in front and back shaft tapers creates the illusion of a warp.
Click to expand...
 
backplaying said:
I asked a well known cue builder, could a shaft be straightened and he claimed a warped shaft cannot be straightened and stay that way.
Click to expand...

It IS possible and it has been done, I have proof in my own collection, more than one that has held up for years (Last time they were checked). ;)

But as I said it can't be guaranteed so no I would not bet on it.

Wood gets "bent" into shapes in many other wood working disciplines and the principles are no different.
 
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