Is it time for a Class Action against eBay?

[our_auctionguy]

I pose this question out of being truly at my wit's end with eBay's lack of response to scams running on eBay when they have been notified by numerous eBay members with solid evidence a specific auction is a most certain scam.

As we all know, Ripped or copied auctions where the scammer simply posts a copy of a previous auction are one of the easiest to prove are scams. Unfortunately, eBay turns a blind eye to these and others, even after several people report them and it is obvious they are a scam. eBay's response is that unless the original auction seller or buyer comes forward, they will not remove the auction. eBay has that fixed too, they make it nearly impossible to contact the original lister or buyers unless you are involved with the transaction. Secondly, why is eBay not doing the legwork to turn these up and relying primarily on the member community? Also, after being notified of the scams, I question whether eBay makes any concerted effort to contact the original auction parties of copied auctions for confirmation one way or another. If they do, I am sure it is only by email, when all they have to do is make a phone call to expedite communications in an attempt to stop fraud. I say hit'em where it hurts to make them wake up and smell the coffee.

My solution is lawyers, guns, and money. Get the interest of some class action law firms and let them find the people who have been ripped off because of eBay's lack of performing due diligence to protect the buyers in these cases. Not everyone is as sharp as us, so I am sure there have been many thousands of unfortunate losers on eBay.

I know the word lawyer leaves a foul taste in some people's mouth similar to the inside of a pecan shell. But, hey! eBay won't change unless they are forced to. The purpose of class actions is to turn BIG SHIPS.

Also, I hear it coming. Someone is gonna reply, "Anyone doing business on eBay is a Loser". Please help save the dolphins!

 

[cueaddicts]

The solution is simple....everybody quit using it.

 

[hejests]

Ebay is a lot like a flee market. They give you the structure (ability to search, list, etc... the way a flee market gives a building and kiosk space) but what happens at the indivisual sale level isn't really their responsibility. When you go to a flee market, you know to be cautious with what you're buying. It's buyer beware, and it's the same with ebay.

Its very easy to spot a false auction. Ebay gives you the tools to do just that (ie we have the ability to look at feedback, search for similar products etc).

If people get scammed with false auctions, it's really out of ignorance, lack of due diligence, or over eagerness to get a "great" deal.

I've bought a ton of stuff off ebay and I've never gotten scammed because I'm careful. I look at feedback and selling volume/history. If something looks a lil fishy I ask to call the guy to talk about it, so I have a name and number, not just email. Every so often I pass on something I'm interested in because something doesn't sit right with me.

Just like a flee market... Caveat Emptor.

 

[DawgAndy]

I'm done with the 'Bay. See my post in the Barenbrugge thread. If I'm going to spend any serious amount of money, it'll be with an established dealer. Cues, wood, equipment whatever. To me, the deal of a lifetime isn't worth getting ripped off 10 other times.

I think the OP point is that Ebay isn't doing enough to stop the scams. I've reported 2 recently and were told that by Ebays standards they were ok. When in fact I know they weren't.

 

[our_auctionguy]

I agree with some of your points except that I have had to do some major searching to find copied auctions where both the user account had been ripped from someone in good standing, and the items were taken from another's previous auction. In those cases, the auction looked completely legit with recent buyer feedback etc. Once eBay was notified, they pulled the auctions only when they could verify the account had been ripped but only then. My account was ripped (God knows how?) and nearly 20 auctions were posted using my account. If the original account holder cannot be reached, they let the auction continue. My only clue was all the email questions I was receiving about the items I was supposedly listing. I do not believe that when eBay is contacted about a fraud that they have no responsibility and it is strictly caveat emptor on the bidders. In a flea market, you are dealing directly with the seller and not through an intermediary like an auctioneer. Sotheby's takes great care in making sure they auction authenticated items and if one were accused of being a fraudulent counterfeit before the auction, don't you think they would be held repsonsible if they allowed buyers to bid and pay for it and it turned up to be a counterfeit? Responsibility starts to shift to the auctioneer once a question of fraud arises and they have been duly notified with supporting evidence. Why? Because they have a vested interest in the auction outcome called commission and fees. eBay leans in the direction of fee recovery and not buyer protection. IMO, That needs to change.

 

[hejests]

I don't think it can. What differentiates ebay from a sotheby's or most other auction houses is the volume of transactions and the dollar value of the average transaction. With the sort of volume ebay deals with, it's going to be extremely difficult to put policing in place that involves a human being involved and remedying something. They have a whole bunch of automated checks and balances (which they add to progressively), but human involvement is really problematic. They have literally millions (if not 10 of millions) of auctions going at any given time.

It's hard for most ppl to grasp just how complicated human involvement becomes when you're dealing with that much volume. But here's an comparrison...

I'm a software developer, and I work primarily on trading systems for large banks. The industry as a whole is moving towards the STPing (straight through processing) of trades. Basically this means from the point a trade is booked to the point its cleared between the two parties and funds are exchanged, no human involvement, everything gets processed automatically (straight through). We're not there yet, but it's the ideal state. Why? Because of volume. It's impossible to handle the processing of crazy trading volume when you need to involve ppl in the process. Volume changes everything.

Can they put more checks and balances in place, sure, but for ebay to be ebay and field the volume that it does those checks are going to be more technology based than ppl based. This also translates into their policies and where and what they're willing to get involved in. They don't want to be involved in auctions, sales, scams. They supply the lions, gladiators and arena... and walk away.. that's their model.

It comes back to caveat emptor because I don't see it changing any time soon.

 

[our_auctionguy]

I don't think it can. What differentiates ebay from a sotheby's or most other auction houses is the volume of transactions and the dollar value of the average transaction. With the sort of volume ebay deals with, it's going to be extremely difficult to put policing in place that involves a human being involved and remedying something. They have a whole bunch of automated checks and balances (which they add to progressively), but human involvement is really problematic. They have literally millions (if not 10 of millions) of auctions going at any given time.

It's hard for most ppl to grasp just how complicated human involvement becomes when you're dealing with that much volume. But here's an comparrison...

I'm a software developer, and I work primarily on trading systems for large banks. The industry as a whole is moving towards the STPing (straight through processing) of trades. Basically this means from the point a trade is booked to the point its cleared between the two parties and funds are exchanged, no human involvement, everything gets processed automatically (straight through). We're not there yet, but it's the ideal state. Why? Because of volume. It's impossible to handle the processing of crazy trading volume when you need to involve ppl in the process. Volume changes everything.

Can they put more checks and balances in place, sure, but for ebay to be ebay and field the volume that it does those checks are going to be more technology based than ppl based. This also translates into their policies and where and what they're willing to get involved in. They don't want to be involved in auctions, sales, scams. They supply the lions, gladiators and arena... and walk away.. that's their model.

It comes back to caveat emptor because I don't see it changing any time soon.

I am a senior systems analyst also, and was involved in managing international telecommunications IT operations where my company supplied the hardware, software, and international call center support staff for calling card provisioning for telecommunications companies in 20+ countries mostly in Europe and Asia in the latter part of the 90's. Our systems were co-located in these country's CO switches and we were held contractually responsible for most fraudulent losses for international call use passing through their switches even when the fraud originated in their country and was due to their telephone company's inability to provide us the needed data called ANI to help block the fraud. We called it "the cost of doing business" even though we were unable to prevent some of it due to the outdated telephony infrastructure of their networks. We made every attempt to stop fraud and was quite successful except in rare cases where we were blindsided by a vendor's software change or some other problem. So, I know a little about the compexities eBay has to manage.
Again, I say that with proper and timely notification of a potential criminal act, such as auction fraud on eBay, eBay has a duty to do more than let it run. Turning a blind eye is not responsive and I would bet in a court of law, a jury would agree that when their inaction causes others financial harm, that could be construed as willful negligence, and they could have done more.
The issue I have raised here is simply a question of responsibility once the issue of fraud has been shown beyond a simple accusation with undeniable proof. It isn't black and white.

Oh, and on this board, AZBilliards is truly out of the way with no vested interest in the sales just like a free posting board in a super market provided as a service convenience. This is community policed, and it is truly caveat emptor. The funny part is we all support eBay every time we transact something with a fellow AZer here with Paypal. eBay owns Paypal. Small world.

 

[runscott]

...Oh, and on this board, AZBilliards is truly out of the way with no vested interest in the sales just like a free posting board in a super market provided as a service convenience. This is community policed, and it is truly caveat emptor. The funny part is we all support eBay every time we transact something with a fellow AZer here with Paypal. eBay owns Paypal. Small world.

You are right, but efforts have been made to improve this board and to police it, which is why, while out of control, it's not as out of control as some other forums. Having said that, it wouldn't be difficult to add a few checks and balances to make this subforum safer and more pleasant to do business in. Rather than have free-form 'for sale' posts, a form could be created with a few basic areas like: 'ferrule width', 'damage', 'weight', 'balance point', 'shaft roll', 'butt roll', 'modifications', 'shafts original?', 'refinish by original maker?'. It could even be allowable to put 'unknown' as a value, but at least require items that cause problems with transactions, to be addressed in the selling post.

 

[hejests]

Again, I say that with proper and timely notification of a potential criminal act, such as auction fraud on eBay, eBay has a duty to do more than let it run. Turning a blind eye is not responsive and I would bet in a court of law, a jury would agree that when their inaction causes others financial harm, that could be construed as willful negligence, and they could have done more.

That's the underlying question right there, what's ebay's duty in all this. What responsibility do they actually have with regards to fraudulant users and does that responsibility involve policing or can they just simply add more warnings to their terms of service? I'll be bet you it's a pretty complicated legal question. I'm thinking it's probably an extremely grey zone because the law is still way behind with regards to dealing with identity theft issues properly and there are probably all sorts of jurisdiction issues dealing with online auctions. That's my 2 cents worth.

Paypal is bloody brilliant though, a money making machine.

 

[bagofpaper]

The solution is simple....everybody quit using it.

That is the solution. Nothing better than a simple one.

 

[runscott]

That is the solution. Nothing better than a simple one.

Yes, that is always the simplest solution to any problem - just avoid it.

 

[asiasdad]

I pose this question out of being truly at my wit's end with eBay's lack of response to scams running on eBay when they have been notified by numerous eBay members with solid evidence a specific auction is a most certain scam.

As we all know, Ripped or copied auctions where the scammer simply posts a copy of a previous auction are one of the easiest to prove are scams. Unfortunately, eBay turns a blind eye to these and others, even after several people report them and it is obvious they are a scam. eBay's response is that unless the original auction seller or buyer comes forward, they will not remove the auction. eBay has that fixed too, they make it nearly impossible to contact the original lister or buyers unless you are involved with the transaction. Secondly, why is eBay not doing the legwork to turn these up and relying primarily on the member community? Also, after being notified of the scams, I question whether eBay makes any concerted effort to contact the original auction parties of copied auctions for confirmation one way or another. If they do, I am sure it is only by email, when all they have to do is make a phone call to expedite communications in an attempt to stop fraud. I say hit'em where it hurts to make them wake up and smell the coffee.

My solution is lawyers, guns, and money. Get the interest of some class action law firms and let them find the people who have been ripped off because of eBay's lack of performing due diligence to protect the buyers in these cases. Not everyone is as sharp as us, so I am sure there have been many thousands of unfortunate losers on eBay.

I know the word lawyer leaves a foul taste in some people's mouth similar to the inside of a pecan shell. But, hey! eBay won't change unless they are forced to. The purpose of class actions is to turn BIG SHIPS.

Also, I hear it coming. Someone is gonna reply, "Anyone doing business on eBay is a Loser". Please help save the dolphins!

PAYPAL needs tort action as badly as Ebay.

 

[DJKeys]

Agreed.

The solution is simple....everybody quit using it.

That is the way to get real results.