For the past month I have been considering joining a pool league. I can't decide what one to join and I have heard good and bad things about all. I was in a local pool tournament last week and I ended up shooting very well. A few of the people I spoke with said in APA with the way I was shooting I might be rated a 7. What is the rating scale? Then they talked about how I might not want to join and shoot like I did in the tournament because I would not win as much money. I don't know it was just all confusing to me. They said there are a lot of "sandbaggers" in leagues. If I join and play like I did the tournament (pretty darn good) do I not have a chance to win money or go to vegas?
Is it worth it to join a league?
- Thread starter Digger0038
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The rating scale in APA goes up to 7 in 8-ball. People like to say there are a lot of sandbaggers because it gives them a foolproof excuse when they lose(and think they shouldn't have).
If you want to hang out with friends, play some pool, help others and have a good time, try out the APA. If you want to concentrate on your own game and get more money back, join BCA. Otherwise, just stick with your tournaments.
You can hang out with friends, play some pool, help others and have a good time in the BCA, VNEA, TAP, and any other league out there. There will always be sandbaggers, pressure to sandbag, and poor winners and losers no matter what league you join. Figure out what you want to do, then do it.
Where in Florida?
Wesley Chapel.
No !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I was playing in $10 buy-in weekly tournaments for six months, having fun and meeting people. Then I decided to give a league a try just to see what it was about. I joined the APA, playing 8-ball. Playing on a team produces more comradery then a tournament. It also produces more pressure to perform (and even just to show up for the night instead of sitting in when something happens to be on TV). I decided I liked that and 90% of my competitive pool has been league play for the last year.
Regarding the leagues, I played APA for a season, then my team spun off and started our own in-house league in a bar. In the APA, BCA, etc... you travel around to different pool halls each week. An in-house league stays at the same place and is not associated with a national league like APA/BCA.
About Vegas. This lure does not entice me. I love Las Vegas, love playing Blackjack and Craps, and have been to Las Vegas dozens of times. However, the odds of your team making it to Vegas are very slim. The benefit of the in-house league I play in is that all the money is awarded back to the players at the end of the season, based on how their team did. The bar makes money from all the drinking going on every league night.
From what I've heard, BCA has more serious players then APA. There are serious players in APA too; it's just that the percentage is higher in BCA. Depending on your location you may find an APA or BCA "masters" league. Those are not handicapped and from what I hear they are just about all serious APA 6/7 style players.
I suggest you give a league a try for a season and see how you like it.
Regarding the leagues, I played APA for a season, then my team spun off and started our own in-house league in a bar. In the APA, BCA, etc... you travel around to different pool halls each week. An in-house league stays at the same place and is not associated with a national league like APA/BCA.
About Vegas. This lure does not entice me. I love Las Vegas, love playing Blackjack and Craps, and have been to Las Vegas dozens of times. However, the odds of your team making it to Vegas are very slim. The benefit of the in-house league I play in is that all the money is awarded back to the players at the end of the season, based on how their team did. The bar makes money from all the drinking going on every league night.
From what I've heard, BCA has more serious players then APA. There are serious players in APA too; it's just that the percentage is higher in BCA. Depending on your location you may find an APA or BCA "masters" league. Those are not handicapped and from what I hear they are just about all serious APA 6/7 style players.
I suggest you give a league a try for a season and see how you like it.
Don't play league , especially APA , if your hoping to win money or trips to Vegas.
You definitely come out ahead NOT playing league.
Play league for the fun, the camaraderie and other social aspects.
Serious competition , winnings to input ratio and other more 'serious' aspects , play Tournys and/or Local tour events.
You definitely come out ahead NOT playing league.
Play league for the fun, the camaraderie and other social aspects.
Serious competition , winnings to input ratio and other more 'serious' aspects , play Tournys and/or Local tour events.
Ohh, about sandbagging... I only played one APA season. I can't say I saw sandbagging, but I was not really looking for it either. The APA "Equalizer" handicapping system seems to be designed to drive most players to around a 50% win rate (or at least 40-60% range). The least skilled players will be much lower and the terrific players will be winning 80% of their matches even if they are SL7. I posted an analysis of the data from my league last spring:
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=271656
With that said, I suspect that the teams making it to Las Vegas are either sandbagging, are lucky, or just happen to have players that are ranked lower then their actual skill for some fluke reason. I hear people say "on my team I have a real solid SL3 player that kicks ass." This makes no sense to me. If they are real solid they would be rated higher. That leads me to believe that the SL3, SL4 players that make it to Vegas could reasonably be rated higher. But I'm talking out of my hat; there are plenty of guys on this forum that have many more years of APA experience then I do.
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=271656
With that said, I suspect that the teams making it to Las Vegas are either sandbagging, are lucky, or just happen to have players that are ranked lower then their actual skill for some fluke reason. I hear people say "on my team I have a real solid SL3 player that kicks ass." This makes no sense to me. If they are real solid they would be rated higher. That leads me to believe that the SL3, SL4 players that make it to Vegas could reasonably be rated higher. But I'm talking out of my hat; there are plenty of guys on this forum that have many more years of APA experience then I do.
Winning money or going to Vegas are not things that matter a lot to me. We lived in Nevada prior to moving here to Florida. Money and Vegas are just what people in the APA were telling me about. I don't really know anyone here in Florida so just getting out 1 or 2x a week to meet people and play pool sounds fun to me. Plus hopefully meeting people that are better than I am so I can learn more would be a good thing also.
Every Year it's the same thing ... Do I join or not ? ... I have been reluctantly saying Yes, but I hope I have the courage to say NO next time ... There are so many Loser P.O.S. players in our League, I don't know how we actually keep it going from week to week ... Filthy / Stinky Bars (dried Puke on the Floor), Stinky Players (must be allergic to soap & water), Loser Dopers (lots of those), and totally crappy Tables & Balls.
God Help Me IF I ever say Yes again !!!
God Help Me IF I ever say Yes again !!!
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Then I'd say yes. I did the same thing and it got me out of the house on a weekly basis(or more to practice with people I met) and I still know those people years later. Also, with the APA system keeping track of your records and having ratings, it gives you a chance to see where you're at. It's one night a week for 3 or so months. If you don't like it or don't think that it's worth it, you can always go back to what you're doing now. Since I didn't get out very often or try different places, it helped with that a little, too.
If you are looking to make any money at pool, doing it in a League can be tough. However, If you want to set aside one night a week where you know you can go out, play pool with friends and just have a good time. League is perfect. I personally like to play league because it allows me to take a couple of "pool vacations" to Vegas to play in the tournaments each year.
Unless you want to just hang out and play the walk in ball bangers and the occasional hustler, I'd suggest joining a league and have some fun. It may take a while to find your niche, but you'll have a good time along the way. You can still do the tourneys and go for the money games, but while in league you'll play a wider range of people with different styles and skills. And just because someone might be a lower level, they still might know something you don't.
Here is the APA handicap scale for 8-ball. The scale runs from 2 to 7. My first APA capatain told me the skill levels roughly corresponds to many balls you make per inning on average. Around my area some C+ players in 9-ball are SL7, and B's are definitely 7s.
http://www.poolplayers.com/equalizer.htmls
Have you talked to the league operators or reps to see how you fit? In my area, I have a choice of in-house 8-ball, advance 9-ball, and APA leagues. I'm fortunate my area attracts enough players to structure leagues for beginners and advanced players. The 8-ball league and handicap is geared towards beginners, and 90% would be classed as D's in 9-ball league.
The APA 8-ball league in my area would fall between the two leagues because of range the APA handicap scale. The APA handicap scale for 8-ball doesn't measure any higher than 7. So, I've seen an SL 7 (who is a C+) match even against a SL 7 (who's open level) in even race.
In areas where there isn't a choice of leagues, handicaps, and tournaments, you're likely to encounter this situation where all the local players are squeezed into narrow scale because the local league is the only game in town (literally). Think of a rural 1 room school house versus a school district with separate elementary, intermediate, high schools.
http://www.poolplayers.com/equalizer.htmls
Have you talked to the league operators or reps to see how you fit? In my area, I have a choice of in-house 8-ball, advance 9-ball, and APA leagues. I'm fortunate my area attracts enough players to structure leagues for beginners and advanced players. The 8-ball league and handicap is geared towards beginners, and 90% would be classed as D's in 9-ball league.
The APA 8-ball league in my area would fall between the two leagues because of range the APA handicap scale. The APA handicap scale for 8-ball doesn't measure any higher than 7. So, I've seen an SL 7 (who is a C+) match even against a SL 7 (who's open level) in even race.
In areas where there isn't a choice of leagues, handicaps, and tournaments, you're likely to encounter this situation where all the local players are squeezed into narrow scale because the local league is the only game in town (literally). Think of a rural 1 room school house versus a school district with separate elementary, intermediate, high schools.
If you don't like the national league operations, there are places that have local leagues, usually in "real" pool rooms, you basically play for a cut of the money put into it, like a long team tournament. Fred (cornerman) is in Florida and I'm sure he can help you find something good there. Florida is (or was) a great place for pool, at least when the Seminole tour was there, not sure how things are going there now.
I never played in the APA, but every handicapped league will have people who dump to keep their rating lower so they can win in the playoffs and finals. I don't think I have EVER seen a place that did not have this happening, heck, even local leagues I have seen where the LO has not raised people up that were obviously playing too well for their rating. You'd have 2 players matching up even in a gambling match because they know they play even, then go play in their league matches and one is 2 levels under the other.
Right now I am in a USAPL league, but it's mostly for my son to also play in, plus the fact that for $7 I can play in a good competitive match (it's a Masters division so the players are invite only and are all about a B or higher level), and can practice for a couple of hours for no table time cost. The "Vegas Trip" part is really secondary for me.
From the rules that are used, the USAPL and the BCA leagues are better than the APA.
I never played in the APA, but every handicapped league will have people who dump to keep their rating lower so they can win in the playoffs and finals. I don't think I have EVER seen a place that did not have this happening, heck, even local leagues I have seen where the LO has not raised people up that were obviously playing too well for their rating. You'd have 2 players matching up even in a gambling match because they know they play even, then go play in their league matches and one is 2 levels under the other.
Right now I am in a USAPL league, but it's mostly for my son to also play in, plus the fact that for $7 I can play in a good competitive match (it's a Masters division so the players are invite only and are all about a B or higher level), and can practice for a couple of hours for no table time cost. The "Vegas Trip" part is really secondary for me.
From the rules that are used, the USAPL and the BCA leagues are better than the APA.
I've played extensively in both APA and VNEA. Both have their good points.
The best chance to win a trip/cash is VNEA since it is run by people who get their payback from having tables in the locations and sharing in the revenue that those tables generate. The money that the players pay in each week goes toward the cost of the trip/cash prizes (although some areas charge a small admin. fee usually 10%). This is why a league of 12 teams can give out a trip each of 3 yearly sessions, a 3 in 12 chance of winning. In addition, if your team wants to pay their own way and go to the Vegas tournament, they can. The format is very player friendly and is not as open to sandbagging. Teams tend to stay together for many sessions. The format allows for an earlier finish each league night.
APA is much harder to win. The format is one that seems to encourage teams to sandbag since they have to break up when their overall handicaps go up. The league is a business intended to generate income for the operator so the payback to the players is much lower. The number of trips given to teams ratio is therefore much lower. About 1 in 30. You can only enter the Vegas tournament by winning the trip although as an individual you could go and play in the mini tournaments. Most APA charters are well run and provide a positive playing experience although the nights tend to finish very late.
The best chance to win a trip/cash is VNEA since it is run by people who get their payback from having tables in the locations and sharing in the revenue that those tables generate. The money that the players pay in each week goes toward the cost of the trip/cash prizes (although some areas charge a small admin. fee usually 10%). This is why a league of 12 teams can give out a trip each of 3 yearly sessions, a 3 in 12 chance of winning. In addition, if your team wants to pay their own way and go to the Vegas tournament, they can. The format is very player friendly and is not as open to sandbagging. Teams tend to stay together for many sessions. The format allows for an earlier finish each league night.
APA is much harder to win. The format is one that seems to encourage teams to sandbag since they have to break up when their overall handicaps go up. The league is a business intended to generate income for the operator so the payback to the players is much lower. The number of trips given to teams ratio is therefore much lower. About 1 in 30. You can only enter the Vegas tournament by winning the trip although as an individual you could go and play in the mini tournaments. Most APA charters are well run and provide a positive playing experience although the nights tend to finish very late.
Dave,
I have not read the thread so excuse me if I'm being repetitive.
At one time I was in four(4) leagues a week, both APA & BCA. It became a 2nd. job. In the beginning, when it was in just one(1) it was fun. I did it because I love playing & it was a guaranteed way to play at least once a week. So, when asked I joined another one to get to play twice a week, then 3 & then 4. Then I droped 1, & then another 1, & another 1 til I was out.
I got out, not because I no longer liked to play but because of the places you wind up playing at with terrible tables, balls, & situations, the petty people that are just doing it for a resaon to get out & drink & really know nothing about playing the game, etc. It got old & tiring.
That was neary 20 years ago & I just got back in an individual money league at the Hall closest to my house. I know where & on what equipment I will be playing on every week & I will be playing against 'pool players'. Plus the rules are much better than APA or BCA.
I would suggest you learn from my experience & get into a house league if possible. If not then get into a BCA league where you will be based out of a Hall. That way you know what you will be playing on better non coin equipment 1/2 the time.
I hope this helps you make your decision.
Best Regards to You &
I have not read the thread so excuse me if I'm being repetitive.
At one time I was in four(4) leagues a week, both APA & BCA. It became a 2nd. job. In the beginning, when it was in just one(1) it was fun. I did it because I love playing & it was a guaranteed way to play at least once a week. So, when asked I joined another one to get to play twice a week, then 3 & then 4. Then I droped 1, & then another 1, & another 1 til I was out.
I got out, not because I no longer liked to play but because of the places you wind up playing at with terrible tables, balls, & situations, the petty people that are just doing it for a resaon to get out & drink & really know nothing about playing the game, etc. It got old & tiring.
That was neary 20 years ago & I just got back in an individual money league at the Hall closest to my house. I know where & on what equipment I will be playing on every week & I will be playing against 'pool players'. Plus the rules are much better than APA or BCA.
I would suggest you learn from my experience & get into a house league if possible. If not then get into a BCA league where you will be based out of a Hall. That way you know what you will be playing on better non coin equipment 1/2 the time.
I hope this helps you make your decision.
Best Regards to You &
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