vinmaps
POOL CLASS *****istrator
Your input is sorely needed; not by me, but for the sake of Pool!
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http://www.mgtmotorsports.com/Feedback/showthread.php?t=399
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http://www.mgtmotorsports.com/Feedback/showthread.php?t=399
Is the USPPA Handicapping System credible?
- Thread starter vinmaps
- Start date
most of the time its accurate
depends on the pool room, I played a guy once in Reno a long time ago who was rated 17, he broke and ran out, a real 17 shouldnt be able to run more than 3 balls in a row, its impossible to play that bad, the guy that ran out on me was moving the rock around just fine, all the players in that room were WAY underrated-it was a fix. other than that room all the places I went to were pretty close and accurate when compaired to each other, a 75 would be the same +/- 5 points room to room, the Reno scam was just that. i beat the guy but didnt win the tournment, they had me in as a 60 because i wasnt rated which was like being rated 150 , and i never played like that.
depends on the pool room, I played a guy once in Reno a long time ago who was rated 17, he broke and ran out, a real 17 shouldnt be able to run more than 3 balls in a row, its impossible to play that bad, the guy that ran out on me was moving the rock around just fine, all the players in that room were WAY underrated-it was a fix. other than that room all the places I went to were pretty close and accurate when compaired to each other, a 75 would be the same +/- 5 points room to room, the Reno scam was just that. i beat the guy but didnt win the tournment, they had me in as a 60 because i wasnt rated which was like being rated 150 , and i never played like that.
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Usppa
Wow, this is a giant can of worms here. There's been so much controversy about the USPPA rating system and questionable tournaments. First, I have to say Tony Annagoni is a great guy and he really does dedicate a lot of time and energy to keeping pool alive and kicking. I truly think that he and the rest of the USPPA staff do what they can to keep everything fair for everyone.
Ok... having said that I have to say in MY experience there are definitely some flaws in the system. It's just too difficult to supervise every pool room tournament to make sure it's on the up and up as well as individual sandbagging. And unfortunately I see a lot of good players are leaving because of it. There's been articles written about some players and open letters to a pool magazine and plenty of arguing back and forth.
Unfortunately, here in California we just don't have a multiple tournament tours available so we gotta make due with what we have. I'd be interested in seeing the turn out if the USPPA ran some 'Open' tournaments. I, for one, would definitely participate.
Wow, this is a giant can of worms here. There's been so much controversy about the USPPA rating system and questionable tournaments. First, I have to say Tony Annagoni is a great guy and he really does dedicate a lot of time and energy to keeping pool alive and kicking. I truly think that he and the rest of the USPPA staff do what they can to keep everything fair for everyone.
Ok... having said that I have to say in MY experience there are definitely some flaws in the system. It's just too difficult to supervise every pool room tournament to make sure it's on the up and up as well as individual sandbagging. And unfortunately I see a lot of good players are leaving because of it. There's been articles written about some players and open letters to a pool magazine and plenty of arguing back and forth.
Unfortunately, here in California we just don't have a multiple tournament tours available so we gotta make due with what we have. I'd be interested in seeing the turn out if the USPPA ran some 'Open' tournaments. I, for one, would definitely participate.
I think the USPPA rating system is the most accurate way to judge the "speed" of a player. Sandbagging does take place, but it's not as rampant as I've seen in the APA.
There is always gonna be problems when you handicap pool. The USPPA seems to do it the best, from what I've seen.
There is always gonna be problems when you handicap pool. The USPPA seems to do it the best, from what I've seen.
yeah, cuetech's got it... there's no foolproof system. A lot of systems work pretty well if everyone's honest and there's a lot of games. With limited games and attempts to manipulate it, every system fails.
Maybe one way to help counteract sandbagging is to count league semis and finals higher than regular matches. So if you dogged it just to get into the finals, then used your true speed to win the money... well you got away with it once, but those few games at your true speed might put a huge hurting on your handicap for next year.
Maybe one way to help counteract sandbagging is to count league semis and finals higher than regular matches. So if you dogged it just to get into the finals, then used your true speed to win the money... well you got away with it once, but those few games at your true speed might put a huge hurting on your handicap for next year.
vinmaps said:
The USPPA Handiapping system has been going along successfully for many years. I'm sure the pissing and moaning has gone on just as long. It is the nature of the beast. I heard many years ago about the great handicap system in Arizona. I recently saw a post critical of the same system. I haven't played in the USPPA System in years, but when I did, I understood it was really designed for developing players. I still won my share of tournaments because the lower handicap players usually didn't play up to speed when they got near the finals. The two players who recently placed one/two at the tournament at Hard Times are Hard Times regulars who practiced almost daily for hours getting ready for the tournament. Did they have an advantage? Sure, but they worked for it. These tournaments give you a chance for a big payday under competition at game you love to play. There will always be complainers and knockers. It is part of life and part of pool and if the USPPA wasn't there to complain about, the complainers and knockers would find something else. For the sake of pool, be happy you have something to play in and complain about. John Henderson
I am not a fan of the USPPA, I think that the system is decent. I just not am not a fan of handicapped tournaments. I would rather play in the open fields, even though I know I am usually in the lower 50% of the field. I tried to get into playing in the USPPA tournaments, but I just really wasn't into it. The worst part about it is having to hang out and keep score after you lose. I also work early in the mornings and staying up until 2am to play a final match is not worth $150 to me. Just my preferrence, but I would rather just play in the open tournaments on the weekends, also brings out my best game when I am playing better players than me with no spot.jrhendy said:
jrhendy said:
John, Its awalys worked good in Great American when Gene had it and now Tony, they run it on the square, we did in Modesto, its a decent system, but it seems the farther away from sacramento you go the worse the sand bagging gets, I did see a few rooms in LA in the earily 90's run it on the square, I agree its better than nothing, i'm not knocking it, in fact the oppsite, i dont like the sand baggers,
Hard Times Bellflower
This was one of the only rooms in Socal where USPPA was going that strong. I heard during the same time in Sacramento and the Bay Area were having USPPA tournaments like this every night of the week.
I used to play at Hard Times in Bellflower in their Wednesday night tournaments, back in the early 90's. They would get 64 players, everytime on a Wednesday night! The 9-Ball on the snap pot was always $1500 also.Fatboy said:
This was one of the only rooms in Socal where USPPA was going that strong. I heard during the same time in Sacramento and the Bay Area were having USPPA tournaments like this every night of the week.
vinmaps
POOL CLASS *****istrator
Interesting...sounds like political advice.
But what about the truth? What's happening to the data we pay for and spend time to collect after we've just lost a match and need to get to work early the next day? Do we need these X's and S's?
As citizens of this great country, should we demand to know the truth about our tax dollars, or, for the sake of life, should we be happy to play in the United States and complain about taxes?
jrhendy said:
But what about the truth? What's happening to the data we pay for and spend time to collect after we've just lost a match and need to get to work early the next day? Do we need these X's and S's?
As citizens of this great country, should we demand to know the truth about our tax dollars, or, for the sake of life, should we be happy to play in the United States and complain about taxes?
i ran them in my room until last month.(we closed down). i tried my best to keep peoples averages up to par.one example is a gentleman that for years played at around 120 speed. he comes in and signes up, i look his average up and hes like a 75 !!i wouldnt let him play at that. once you have been to that level, it is there. i sat down with tony last year at the reno tourney, and made a suggestion. maybe add to the score sheet what balls each player made. it needs to be more indepth.nothing on there shows us who made most of the shots. now i know that ball count doesnt matter in nine ball, but if they added this to the system, it might keep sand bagging down. im a perfect example. my rating has stayed around a 60 speed since i bought my pool hall. because i work the place and play, focus and concentration in my place was always my enemy. when i made it to reno i always did well in the tourneys because id play right around a 75 speed. hopefully it will rise now that im playing elsewhere. just my two cents worth!!
jrhendy said:
According to John Lewis, its the most proven and workable system he has ever seen or worked with. It gives players a chance to compete on a level playing field with the likes of Archer and the gang, I don't know of any other system that does. Yours truly, the kick pool champion of the world, IMOM
Good article. I don't understand the mechanics of the USPPA system. When I lived in Calif. the rumor was that no one really understood how it worked, but that there was this little black box sequestered away somewhere; and "it" knew...vinmaps said:
The averages seemed fairly accurate to me. I never played in a room that kept USPPA rankings, although I would have liked to. We had NPL, which was infinitely easier and understandable. The problem with NPL was that it was near perfect. In other words the mid-level players seemed to have the best chance to win.
What I liked about the USPPA was that the worst spot was 8-3; whereas in NPL it was 7-2, and in the long form, 9-2. So in USPPA, there was a tendency for the better players to win; which in my view is the way it should be.
My sense is, that since TA took it over, it has become much better run, and more straightforward. Poolplayers are never going to be satisfied-- no matter what system is used.
Doc
vinmaps
POOL CLASS *****istrator
It's all about Data
In any endeavor, data collection takes time and money and is required to determine a certain outcome. Put aside how long the USPPA has been successful, or your feelings for the people involved, and ask yourself this question: If the data collection pocess that cost each player $2 and a half-hour of their time resulted in a far from perfect output, AND a better output was achieved that required no data collection, would you eliminate the original process and go with the newer one? Would pool--and the USPPA, for whom I run the 2 40+ player tournaments per week--not benefit greatly by ecstatic players that would celebrate the fact that those frickin' scoresheets were history by enrolling in USPPA tournaments everywhere? This isn't accounting for the logistic pain in the Butt it is to schedule scorekeepers with matches, etc... Does anyone lose by eliminating the sheets?--the USPPA can easily design an alternative revenue program.
In any endeavor, data collection takes time and money and is required to determine a certain outcome. Put aside how long the USPPA has been successful, or your feelings for the people involved, and ask yourself this question: If the data collection pocess that cost each player $2 and a half-hour of their time resulted in a far from perfect output, AND a better output was achieved that required no data collection, would you eliminate the original process and go with the newer one? Would pool--and the USPPA, for whom I run the 2 40+ player tournaments per week--not benefit greatly by ecstatic players that would celebrate the fact that those frickin' scoresheets were history by enrolling in USPPA tournaments everywhere? This isn't accounting for the logistic pain in the Butt it is to schedule scorekeepers with matches, etc... Does anyone lose by eliminating the sheets?--the USPPA can easily design an alternative revenue program.
Usppa
If the USPPA was confusing then, maybe there was good reason.
Because the operator/owner didn't know what they were doing. The controversy does distract from the deeper problems that were underlying.
This thread is not nearly as bad today as it was then, it could be worse, they could've discussed Charlie Williams.
If the USPPA was confusing then, maybe there was good reason.
Because the operator/owner didn't know what they were doing. The controversy does distract from the deeper problems that were underlying.
This thread is not nearly as bad today as it was then, it could be worse, they could've discussed Charlie Williams.
seriously???
