Is there a common CTE focus point or final aiming point?

[AtLarge]

... After you pivot and settle into the shot, when you are ready to take the shot ...Where exactly do you focus prior to executing the shot? What are you looking at? ...

For an answer to your question, please ignore the ongoing debate about the nature and value of CTE. For your question, let's just accept that once you pivot to center CB, you have put the stick on the line of aim that you want. So where do you then look?

Hal Houle taught that you should not look up toward the OB, but just continue to look at center CB and stroke straight through it on the line determined by pivoting to center CB. So that's a CB-last-look approach.

But some people, probably the vast majority, are uncomfortable with the last look being at the CB. They feel it is better to look up toward the OB. So what should they do? They should find a target based on where the stick is pointing (or where the stick will be sending the CB) after the pivot. That is -- pivot to center CB then look up to see exactly where the stick is pointing (you could use the center or an edge, e.g.) or where the CB will be sent, and find a target. The target could be a point on the OB, or an edge of the OB, or a point on the table, or a point on a nearby ball, or a point on a rail, or a certain "eclipsing" of the OB by the CB. Then take a couple warm-up strokes using that target (and center CB) and shoot.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Pat, every long term player who has ever heard of common fractional aiming are using 1/4, 1/2, 3/4 at the obect ball and the center of the cueball.

CB center to OB 1/4 or 3/4 = CB edge to OB 1/4 or 3/4 (CTE aimpoint A or C).
CB center to OB edge = CB edge to OB center (CTE aimpoint B).

The alignments on the left side of the "=" are geometrically identical with the alignments on the right. Whatever the differences in how they're described, they're the same common fractional alignments.

You might say they're used differently, but then you're talking about the "visuals" and "pivots" that are CTE's equivalent to "fidgeting, guessing and feel". The only clearly defined aiming elements in CTE are the same common fractional alignments used in any fractional method.

pj
chgo

 

[Cornerman]

CB center to OB 1/4 or 3/4 = CB edge to OB 1/4 or 3/4 (CTE aimpoint A or C).
CB center to OB edge = CB edge to OB center (CTE aimpoint B).

I'll let someone weigh in on this, but I am surprised that any system that claims a connection with Hal Houle would use a fractional aimpoint at the Object Ball.

The alignments on the left side of the "=" are geometrically identical with the alignments on the right.

You've again got caught up on a paper argument. One of the strengths of the Houle systems is to make a clear definition of the object ball aimpoint specifically because it is difficult if not impossible to find that mystical point on a ball X feet away. By sight, it's easier to see an object ball edge than any other point. Saying they're geometrically the same is meaningless since that's not the point of why the methods were invented.

You might say they're used differently, but then you're talking about the "visuals" and "pivots" that are CTE's equivalent to "fidgeting, guessing and feel".

That's simply not true. The visuals are objective reference points. The pivot is just a pivot since the user has chosen to start his aimline somewhere other than the final stroke line. They have to pivot to get over there. You're insisting that this is fidgeting and guessing is BS that doesn't help any meaningful discussion.

The only clearly defined aiming elements in CTE are the same common fractional alignments used in any fractional method.

pj
chgo

You're wrong. I know common fractional alignments as well as you do, and they're not the same. If you can't get away from that then there really isn't much more of a discussion. The whole of Hal Houle's systems was to get away from common fractional alignments, but still use the centers and edges as reference points.

 

[randyg]

For an answer to your question, please ignore the ongoing debate about the nature and value of CTE. For your question, let's just accept that once you pivot to center CB, you have put the stick on the line of aim that you want. So where do you then look?

Hal Houle taught that you should not look up toward the OB, but just continue to look at center CB and stroke straight through it on the line determined by pivoting to center CB. So that's a CB-last-look approach.

But some people, probably the vast majority, are uncomfortable with the last look being at the CB. They feel it is better to look up toward the OB. So what should they do? They should find a target based on where the stick is pointing (or where the stick will be sending the CB) after the pivot. That is -- pivot to center CB then look up to see exactly where the stick is pointing (you could use the center or an edge, e.g.) or where the CB will be sent, and find a target. The target could be a point on the OB, or an edge of the OB, or a point on the table, or a point on a nearby ball, or a point on a rail, or a certain "eclipsing" of the OB by the CB. Then take a couple warm-up strokes using that target (and center CB) and shoot.

That's not what Hal taught me. I focus on a point around the object ball last.
randyg

 

[champ2107]

I'll let someone weigh in on this, but I am surprised that any system that claims a connection with Hal Houle would use a fractional aimpoint at the Object Ball.



You've again got caught up on a paper argument. One of the strengths of the Houle systems is to make a clear definition of the object ball aimpoint specifically because it is difficult if not impossible to find that mystical point on a ball X feet away. By sight, it's easier to see an object ball edge than any other point. Saying they're geometrically the same is meaningless since that's not the point of why the methods were invented.



That's simply not true. The visuals are objective reference points. The pivot is just a pivot since the user has chosen to start his aimline somewhere other than the final stroke line. They have to pivot to get over there. You're insisting that this is fidgeting and guessing is BS that doesn't help any meaningful discussion.

You're wrong. I know common fractional alignments as well as you do, and they're not the same. If you can't get away from that then there really isn't much more of a discussion. The whole of Hal Houle's systems was to get away from common fractional alignments, but still use the centers and edges as reference points.

do yourself a favor and walk away lol you can bring up as many points as you want. He is selective at what he will answer and will fall back on FEEL and FRACTIONAL as soon as you make a point he can not deal with and that will happen very often lol

 

[Cornerman]

do yourself a favor and walk away lol you can bring up as many points as you want. He is selective at what he will answer and will fall back on FEEL and FRACTIONAL as soon as you make a point he can not deal with and that will happen very often lol

Thanks for the tip, but Pat and I have known each other for a very long time (in internet years). We've run this route before. Unlike others however, Pat and I wouldn't have any issues breaking bread together. Chinese takeout even.

 

[AtLarge]

That's not what Hal taught me. I focus on a point around the object ball last.
randyg

That'll work. Let me qualify what I said about Hal. What he said to me (and at least a couple of other people I'm aware of), is that with his CTE method, just look at the CB last after pivoting to the shot line.

I think you've said you use kind of a hybrid of CTE and SAM, Randy, so you need to look up to the OB (although you could still look at the CB last even with your method if you wanted to, which you don't).

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Me:
CB center to OB 1/4 or 3/4 = CB edge to OB 1/4 or 3/4 (CTE aimpoint A or C).
CB center to OB edge = CB edge to OB center (CTE aimpoint B).

Fred:
I'll let someone weigh in on this, but I am surprised that any system that claims a connection with Hal Houle would use a fractional aimpoint at the Object Ball.

I didn't invent them. They're the "aimpoints" clearly designated for CTE.

Me:
The alignments on the left side of the "=" are geometrically identical with the alignments on the right.

Fred:
You've again got caught up on a paper argument. One of the strengths of the Houle systems is to make a clear definition of the object ball aimpoint specifically because it is difficult if not impossible to find that mystical point on a ball X feet away. By sight, it's easier to see an object ball edge than any other point.

This is irrelevant to the simple fact that the alignments are all common major fractions of CB/OB overlap.

Saying they're geometrically the same is meaningless since that's not the point of why the methods were invented.

How the methods operate is what's relevant here, and CTE's operation beyond designating these ball fractions is undefined (i.e., fidgeting and guessing).

Me:
You might say they're used differently, but then you're talking about the "visuals" and "pivots" that are CTE's equivalent to "fidgeting, guessing and feel".

Fred:
That's simply not true.

Is too.

The visuals are objective reference points.

"The visuals" are an undefined composite view of two reference lines (the fractional alignments) that undoubtedly varies from user to user.

The pivot is just a pivot since the user has chosen to start his aimline somewhere other than the final stroke line. They have to pivot to get over there.

The "pivot" is a euphemism for placing the cue wherever the shooter deems correct (supposedly based on the "visual", whatever that is). This is emphasized by the "graduate" version of CTE: Pro1, which even dispenses with most of the pretense of "system mechanics".

You're insisting that this is fidgeting and guessing is BS that doesn't help any meaningful discussion.

Your insisting that it isn't is BS that doesn't help any meaningful discussion.

The whole of Hal Houle's systems was to get away from common fractional alignments, but still use the centers and edges as reference points.

Whatever that means.

pj <- would like to break bread (or whatever) again
chgo

 

[dr_dave]

I use all available visual information available to me including the contact point.

The truth comes out ... Joey uses DAM!

Thank you for the endorsement. Your check's in the mail (or is it).

Regards,
Dave

 

[champ2107]

Thanks for the tip, but Pat and I have known each other for a very long time (in internet years). We've run this route before. Unlike others however, Pat and I wouldn't have any issues breaking bread together. Chinese takeout even.

ok, if you think you will have an actual grown up discussion with him your sadly mistaken :thumbup: you will only hear "this is how it is" repeated many times and your points will be ignored lol, good luck and keep your windows open! :grin:

 

[JoeyA]

The truth comes out ... Joey uses DAM!

Thank you for the endorsement. Your check's in the mail (or is it).

Regards,
Dave

Fortunately, I use CTE/Pro1 as my main method for aiming and shooting. I also look at lanes, contact points, rails, layouts, etc.

 

[Cornerman]

The "pivot" is a euphemism for placing the cue wherever the shooter deems correct (supposedly based on the "visual", whatever that is). This is emphasized by the "graduate" version of CTE: Pro1, which even dispenses with most of the pretense of "system mechanics".

This among the rest of your paragraphs doesn't make any sense unless your talking about some other systems. Either there is a simple breakdown in communication or your purposefully being difficult. I do know that you're pretty far away just by this one paragraph.

Maybe it's time to quit. The systems were built so that youre not guessing. If you're guessing then you're not following the system. The visuals are clear and you shouldn't fidget. Missing is okay. You miss then you go to the next click of the system. Each and every of these systems have clicks or steps or points (for you point-of-lighters).

It's not as hard as people have made it seem. And it's not as mystical as you're making it seem.

The good news is that for those I see who want to learn how I aim, I've got the word "visual " to use now as the non- guessing objective reference as a start point.

 

[dr_dave]

The truth comes out ... Joey uses DAM!

Thank you for the endorsement. Your check's in the mail (or is it).

Fortunately, I use CTE/Pro1 as my main method for aiming and shooting. I also look at lanes, contact points, rails, layouts, etc.

From you previous post, its sounds like you use DAM for actual aiming (i.e., deciding on the CB shot line necessary to pocket the OB), and use a CTE/Pro1-type pre-shot routine to help visually guide your alignment and sighting.

Sounds DAM good to me.

I think all good shooters have a consistent and purposeful pre-shot routine and use all visual information available to them to help aim, align, and sight a shot.

Regards,
Dave

 

[champ2107]

its a very easy to use cte/pro1 and then actually pin point the contact point after the pivot. i have done this many times when ever i wanted too. I have found out the system puts you pretty much on the contact point every time and i would say any mistake is user made. This system is a great teacher on how to get to the contact point with out using your imagination or instead of lining up points and guessing at if the ob point is there then i should hit it with the cb here, etc and then praying lol its like being an instinctive shooter using pro1 lol your youth wont be wasted in a pool hall shooting a million balls before you can just fire away.

 

[plfrg]

For an answer to your question, please ignore the ongoing debate about the nature and value of CTE. For your question, let's just accept that once you pivot to center CB, you have put the stick on the line of aim that you want. So where do you then look?

Hal Houle taught that you should not look up toward the OB, but just continue to look at center CB and stroke straight through it on the line determined by pivoting to center CB. So that's a CB-last-look approach.

But some people, probably the vast majority, are uncomfortable with the last look being at the CB. They feel it is better to look up toward the OB. So what should they do? They should find a target based on where the stick is pointing (or where the stick will be sending the CB) after the pivot. That is -- pivot to center CB then look up to see exactly where the stick is pointing (you could use the center or an edge, e.g.) or where the CB will be sent, and find a target. The target could be a point on the OB, or an edge of the OB, or a point on the table, or a point on a nearby ball, or a point on a rail, or a certain "eclipsing" of the OB by the CB. Then take a couple warm-up strokes using that target (and center CB) and shoot.

Thanks for the answer, I appreciate it.

It's interesting that some look at the CB as the last reference. I'm sure they could do it but not sure how effective it would be in the long run. In golf they look at the ball and are very successful when putting/swinging but there is an extra complication with pool with the second ball. I've also read a book on putting that mentioned looking at the pocket during the stroke as opposed to the ball which was an interesting twist for golfers.


I think my original question was pretty much answered at this point so hopefully we can let this thread fade off into the sunset... I returned from work today and almost pissed my pants reading some of the pings on this thread. lol. The next time I decide to start a thread and put CTE in the title I will hold my breath under water for 15 minutes straight. If I make it without passing out I will then walk over hot coals for another 15 minutes. Then I will consider repeating the steps above until I convince myself I really, really need the answer to my question. :smile:

 

[champ2107]

there will be no decent cte help threads as long PJ is aloud to roam free on this board lol he cant distinguish between someone just asking for simple help and a cte debate thread. Its unfortunate but the mods he gets mad at let him behave like a obsessed nut on here. :thumbup:

 

[pablocruz]

Thanks for the answer, I appreciate it.

It's interesting that some look at the CB as the last reference. I'm sure they could do it but not sure how effective it would be in the long run. In golf they look at the ball and are very successful when putting/swinging but there is an extra complication with pool with the second ball. I've also read a book on putting that mentioned looking at the pocket during the stroke as opposed to the ball which was an interesting twist for golfers.


I think my original question was pretty much answered at this point so hopefully we can let this thread fade off into the sunset... I returned from work today and almost pissed my pants reading some of the pings on this thread. lol. The next time I decide to start a thread and put CTE in the title I will hold my breath under water for 15 minutes straight. If I make it without passing out I will then walk over hot coals for another 15 minutes. Then I will consider repeating the steps above until I convince myself I really, really need the answer to my question. :smile:

I'm one of those guys that looks at the cueball last! Maybe I can answer your question! CTE-Pro-one sets the bridge directly on the ghostball line! The pivot point must also be on this line or the shot doesn't go! There's really only one aim line which is the objectball-ghostball line through center cueball! The only adjustment or "feel" as others have called it is to adjust while moving into bridge position!!

 

[Jdale]

i don't understand a single idea here
aim at ghost ball
aim at cue ball pivot into
after 55 years of playing i have no idea what is being discussed

I agree, after 55 years of playing myself I'm trying to figure out how these aim systems allow for the applied english to reach the desired position for the next shot.
Dale

 

[JoeyA]

From you previous post, its sounds like you use DAM for actual aiming (i.e., deciding on the CB shot line necessary to pocket the OB), and use a CTE/Pro1-type pre-shot routine to help visually guide your alignment and sighting.

Sounds DAM good to me.

I think all good shooters have a consistent and purposeful pre-shot routine and use all visual information available to them to help aim, align, and sight a shot.

Regards,
Dave

Nah, that dam stuff aint worth a damn.

 

[JE54]

Aiming CTE

Joey, when your using all the different ways to check your correct aim. Would you think that it takes you long too shoot ? I'm wondering if I'm taking too long or rushing because I don't want to take too long.
With CTE, when shooting a shot to the left, do you come in from the A or B side or the CTEL to determie the visuals? I'm just using that as an example, realizing that you would come in from the exact opposite if you were shooting a cut to the right using C or B.