Is there a fundamental way to position

[midnightpulp]

yourself when shooting with English?

This is something I've never considered or have yet read about.

I was practicing this shot tonight and hitting it quite well, until my lower peripheral vision caught the cue shaft swerving toward the left during my warm up strokes.

CueTable Help

It wasn't a stroke issue, but a result of pivoting the cue into the spot (lower left of course) on the cue ball. It totally psyched me out and I begin missing the shot. It looked like I would steer the cue ball too far left, so I started to overcompensate, resulting in too full of a hit. I fixed the situation by only focusing on the cue ball and not paying attention to the lower movement of the cue. I did experiment with moving my bridge hand slightly over, so the cue movement would appear straighter. Didn't really feel comfortable with that.

This optical "event" only occurs on longer shots.

That said, I'd like to ask if it's more fundamentally sound to pivot your cue tip over, or to re-position your bridge hand to where you want to hit the ball?

I'm probably over-intellectualizing, but I was really amazed how something so simple threw me completely off a shot I had nailed, just minutes before.

 

[Gerry]

I have been guilty of looking for or seeing something that isn't there. It's a habit of just trying to make sure nothing is wrong IMO. It took me a LONG time to understand how bifocal vision works and can fool you easily. Just get down over a ball and close one eye.....then switch eyes.....freaky huh?

So, now, I basically pay attention to the object ball and if it's going where I'm aiming. If not I tell myself to overcut or undercut. Granted, I'm lucky in the sense that I do the SAME exact thing wrong all the time, so I know what to do to adjust.

Gerry

 

[av84fun]

yourself when shooting with English?

This optical "event" only occurs on longer shots.

That said, I'd like to ask if it's more fundamentally sound to pivot your cue tip over, or to re-position your bridge hand to where you want to hit the ball?

I'm probably over-intellectualizing, but I was really amazed how something so simple threw me completely off a shot I had nailed, just minutes before.

I'm not a student of back-hand english so the following comment disregards that technique.

IMHO, any angling of the cue relative to the vertical plane of the cb is incorrect. In other words, if the cb was a flat circle, the cue should approach it in a perpendicular fashion.

So, you need to account for the fact that you don't intend to strike the cb on its vertical centerline by setting up your body to account for that offset and then deliver a stroke perpendicular to the ball.

There are certainly exceptions to that rule among top pros...but not many. Bustamante has a SIGNIFICANT "loop" in his stroke but that technique is not recommended for mortal man. (-:

Try setting up the shot with white ring binder reinforcer circles. Put the cb and ob on two of them and place a third on the extended perpendicular line that the cue would travel on during the follow through.

Set up so your body position so that you can deliver a perpendicular stroke to the intended cb offset position (low left in your example) and after the shot, monitor whether your shaft is directly over the white ring.

Finally, note that simply repositioning your bridge position is not the way to go. You should position your entire stance as well.

I think when you see pros get up off their stance and reset themselves, in many cases they have done so because they don't feel that their stance conforms to the above.

Regards,
Jim

 

[midnightpulp]

I'm not a student of back-hand english so the following comment disregards that technique.

IMHO, any angling of the cue relative to the vertical plane of the cb is incorrect. In other words, if the cb was a flat circle, the cue should approach it in a perpendicular fashion.

So, you need to account for the fact that you don't intend to strike the cb on its vertical centerline by setting up your body to account for that offset and then deliver a stroke perpendicular to the ball.

There are certainly exceptions to that rule among top pros...but not many. Bustamante has a SIGNIFICANT "loop" in his stroke but that technique is not recommended for mortal man. (-:

Try setting up the shot with white ring binder reinforcer circles. Put the cb and ob on two of them and place a third on the extended perpendicular line that the cue would travel on during the follow through.

Set up so your body position so that you can deliver a perpendicular stroke to the intended cb offset position (low left in your example) and after the shot, monitor whether your shaft is directly over the white ring.

Finally, note that simply repositioning your bridge position is not the way to go. You should position your entire stance as well.

I think when you see pros get up off their stance and reset themselves, in many cases they have done so because they don't feel that their stance conforms to the above.

Regards,
Jim

Thanks Jim.

Actually when I re-position my bridge hand, I do shift my body over to the position relative to where I'm striking the CB. Forgot to mention that Usually, I don't even line it up with center ball and make the adjustment. I just step into the full shot. I find this works better.

I guess it was uncomfortable since I've simply been pivoting my cue tip over.

Funny game. I can make this shot 10 times in row if I just bend down and shoot without thinking. However, I want to KNOW what I'm doing, because when I encounter this type of shot, which requires some stroke and finesse, in a pressure situation, I'm gonna start thinking and analyzing, whether I like it or not. And when your brain starts messing with your intuition, that's when doubt starts creeping in.

Also it's worth saying this only occurs on lower outside English. I have no problems when I go lower inside, high right, high left, etc...

Will practice this shot again with your recommedations and report back.

PS. Yea, a lot of the Filipino players' strokes look loopy. I think this is because of the "Carabao English" technique a lot them use, where they steer the cue stick to generate exaggerated English.

 

[tpdtom]

Loopy strokes from the great Filipino players aside, it seems that most players pivot rather than make a parallel movement. Most players are also unaware that they do it. Jim is absolutely correct that you can easily check your stroke and it's repeatable straightness with stick-on donuts from any office supply store. The aforementioned 3-ring binder reinforcement things. You simply start one in the middle of the back of the intended corner pocket, one in the middle of the jaws, one 12 inches out, one 12 inches further. These need to be perfectly straight and to continue beneath your cue and behind you on a diagonal line across the table into the corner pocket. Use a chalk line. In golf parlance, from the 3 hole to the 6 hole. You or your friend, especially with a camcorder, can check how straight your stroke is. There are also many other excercises such as shooting the cueball over the spots on the table to the center diamond on the short rail and seeing if you can make it come back to the tip of your cue where it ended on your follow through.

Since you know that you're swerving your hand, and you obviously want to correct it, why not take a lesson from one of our BCA qualified instructors? These things are what they do. They can analyze that stroke and send you home with new tools to correct your little oddities, no matter how great or small. There are quite a few of the little fellas around here. Just ask...Tom

 

[midnightpulp]

Loopy strokes from the great Filipino players aside, it seems that most players pivot rather than make a parallel movement. Most players are also unaware that they do it. Jim is absolutely correct that you can easily check your stroke and it's repeatable straightness with stick-on donuts from any office supply store. The aforementioned 3-ring binder reinforcement things. You simply start one in the middle of the back of the intended corner pocket, one in the middle of the jaws, one 12 inches out, one 12 inches further. These need to be perfectly straight and to continue beneath your cue and behind you on a diagonal line across the table into the corner pocket. Use a chalk line. In golf parlance, from the 3 hole to the 6 hole. You or your friend, especially with a camcorder, can check how straight your stroke is. There are also many other excercises such as shooting the cueball over the spots on the table to the center diamond on the short rail and seeing if you can make it come back to the tip of your cue where it ended on your follow through.

Since you know that you're swerving your hand, and you obviously want to correct it, why not take a lesson from one of our BCA qualified instructors? These things are what they do. They can analyze that stroke and send you home with new tools to correct your little oddities, no matter how great or small. There are quite a few of the little fellas around here. Just ask...Tom

Yeah, I was totally unware and the shot was going in rountinely. Then my eyes caught the movement of the stick and it bugged it me out.

Since getting back into the game a month ago, I've been real analytical about everything. I intend to do it right this time around. I became a pretty good B+ player in my teens just playing racks of 9 ball against myself, but that is hardly the way to go.

I intend to get an instructor, but can't afford one at the moment.

Thanks for the reply.

 

[DaveK]

Yeah, I was totally unware and the shot was going in rountinely. Then my eyes caught the movement of the stick and it bugged it me out.

My friend this is a great reason to read The Inner Game of Tennis. It will explain to you your "self 2" (that's who was making the shot over and over) and your "self 1" (the voices in your head that messed up the shot over and over). The book is very inexpensive online, and is a quick and easy read. The lessons it contains are priceless to a competitive game player, imo. No, you cannot borrow mine

Dave

 

[midnightpulp]

My friend this is a great reason to read The Inner Game of Tennis. It will explain to you your "self 2" (that's who was making the shot over and over) and your "self 1" (the voices in your head that messed up the shot over and over). The book is very inexpensive online, and is a quick and easy read. The lessons it contains are priceless to a competitive game player, imo. No, you cannot borrow mine

Dave

Since registering here, I've heard a lot about that book. Will pick up a copy.

I think that's why aiming systems are so fascinating to a lot of people. When you're under pressure, every aim point looks wrong, so we look for somthing absolutely logical and concrete to fall back on.

It's also why dead stroke is so beautiful. You're just operating, without analyzing, trusting yourself, seeing all those hours of practice being automatically employed.

 

[av84fun]

Usually, I don't even line it up with center ball and make the adjustment. I just step into the full shot. I find this works better.

Right, that's the way to do it. But once you're down if it just doesn't FEEL right, then back off and start your approach to the shot all over again. That is a PRO move.

[QUOTEI guess it was uncomfortable since I've simply been pivoting my cue tip over. [/QUOTE]

Right...Don't do that. (-:

Funny game. I can make this shot 10 times in row if I just bend down and shoot without thinking. However, I want to KNOW what I'm doing, because when I encounter this type of shot, which requires some stroke and finesse, in a pressure situation, I'm gonna start thinking and analyzing, whether I like it or not. And when your brain starts messing with your intuition, that's when doubt starts creeping in.

That is the age old question...how much to actively "think" and how much just to "catch a gear" and shoot entirely instinctively. There are world champions that approach the game both ways and there is CLEARLY a danger to over-thinking.

But I think there is a middle ground. All shots are important but there are often KEY shots that spell the difference between running out and selling out...and often, they are actually easy shots that we tend to take for granted. Reyes recently missed a BABY cut on the 8 Ball.

So on those KEY shots, it would be wise to take enough time to TOTALLY COMMIT to the shot. Ironically, on longer/tougher shots where aim cannot be as precise due to the limitations of human vision, it might be better just to shoot instinctively since over-thinking and tightening up on such shots will so often lead to disaster.

Also it's worth saying this only occurs on lower outside English. I have no problems when I go lower inside, high right, high left, etc...

Using low cueing...on either side...increases the tendency to curve the cb (curve varies with the downward angle of the cue all other things being equal). The fact that you have more problems with inside vs. outside low might be something you want to test.

Depending on your stance, of outside = left you MAY be cueing at more of an angle relative to the perpendicular than you do when shooting outside right...or vice versa.

My GUESS is that you take more of a "swipe" at the cb (i.e. you are crossing your chest) when outside is left than when it is right. Try it out and see.

PS. Yea, a lot of the Filipino players' strokes look loopy. I think this is because of the "Carabao English" technique a lot them use, where they steer the cue stick to generate exaggerated English.

Right! I have NO CLUE how they pull off some of their shots. Watch Busta or Reyes. They will take their warm ups with the tip actually scratching along the cloth...stroke through with center ball or high..BUT THE TIP ENDS BACK DOWN ON THE CLOTH on the follow through!

Dont' try that at home folks!!

(-:

 

[Russ Chewning]

I'm not going to argue about whether back hand english (your swooping into the english contact point) is right or wrong, but I'll give you a little story I heard from a top WA state player.

A B player asked the good player (let's call him J.D. ) how he was able to put su much inside english so smoothly onto the CB, and here is what J.D. showed him:

He told him, "Aim your shot as if you are going to shoot it along the center of the CB (top center, center center, low center)... Decide how much english you want to apply, then veer your tip into that contact point. It allows you to aim the shot without having to compensate for the deflection. This is how Tang Hoa shoots it. This is how Earl Strickland does those three rail, inside-english follow shots."

He then proceded to demonstrate. When discussing it a little later, another player, Brad Gowin from Portland was there, and overheard J.D. say that on a certain backwards cut into the side pocket, he could make the CB scratch in the far corner pocket, consistently.

Brad insisted he couldn't get it that far from the angle he was shooting the OB into the side. J.D. wanted to bet him whatever he wanted right then and there he could get it AT LEAST that far.

When Brad wouldn't back up his mouth, J.D. hit it again, so smooth he got TWO DIAMONDS further than the scratch. Looking at the angle the OB ball had into the side, you'd have bet your house he couldn't have gotten there.

It may be technically possible to do it with a parallel stroke, but I have not personally seen it. I have tested this back hand english method, and have been able to get the CB to do things I just cannot get it to do when aiming parallel.

Take my story with a grain of salt.

(MMMMMM mmmmmmm.. Salty story!)

Russ

 

[klockdoc]

I'm not going to argue about whether back hand english (your swooping into the english contact point) is right or wrong, but I'll give you a little story I heard from a top WA state player.

A B player asked the good player (let's call him J.D. ) how he was able to put su much inside english so smoothly onto the CB, and here is what J.D. showed him:

He told him, "Aim your shot as if you are going to shoot it along the center of the CB (top center, center center, low center)... Decide how much english you want to apply, then veer your tip into that contact point. It allows you to aim the shot without having to compensate for the deflection. This is how Tang Hoa shoots it. This is how Earl Strickland does those three rail, inside-english follow shots."

He then proceded to demonstrate. When discussing it a little later, another player, Brad Gowin from Portland was there, and overheard J.D. say that on a certain backwards cut into the side pocket, he could make the CB scratch in the far corner pocket, consistently.

Brad insisted he couldn't get it that far from the angle he was shooting the OB into the side. J.D. wanted to bet him whatever he wanted right then and there he could get it AT LEAST that far.

When Brad wouldn't back up his mouth, J.D. hit it again, so smooth he got TWO DIAMONDS further than the scratch. Looking at the angle the OB ball had into the side, you'd have bet your house he couldn't have gotten there.

It may be technically possible to do it with a parallel stroke, but I have not personally seen it. I have tested this back hand english method, and have been able to get the CB to do things I just cannot get it to do when aiming parallel.

Take my story with a grain of salt.

(MMMMMM mmmmmmm.. Salty story!)

Russ

I agree with you, Russ. I use the shot below and several others to get maximum english on certain shots. I have to admit, I do not use this system exclusively, but see the benefits in certain situations.

This shot I set up straight in and aim one tip above center.Then when I shoot the shoot, I apply left english.

If I parallel aim,I get too much deflection and miss the shot.

CueTable Help

 

[midnightpulp]

I'm not going to argue about whether back hand english (your swooping into the english contact point) is right or wrong, but I'll give you a little story I heard from a top WA state player.

A B player asked the good player (let's call him J.D. ) how he was able to put su much inside english so smoothly onto the CB, and here is what J.D. showed him:

He told him, "Aim your shot as if you are going to shoot it along the center of the CB (top center, center center, low center)... Decide how much english you want to apply, then veer your tip into that contact point. It allows you to aim the shot without having to compensate for the deflection. This is how Tang Hoa shoots it. This is how Earl Strickland does those three rail, inside-english follow shots."

He then proceded to demonstrate. When discussing it a little later, another player, Brad Gowin from Portland was there, and overheard J.D. say that on a certain backwards cut into the side pocket, he could make the CB scratch in the far corner pocket, consistently.

Brad insisted he couldn't get it that far from the angle he was shooting the OB into the side. J.D. wanted to bet him whatever he wanted right then and there he could get it AT LEAST that far.

When Brad wouldn't back up his mouth, J.D. hit it again, so smooth he got TWO DIAMONDS further than the scratch. Looking at the angle the OB ball had into the side, you'd have bet your house he couldn't have gotten there.

It may be technically possible to do it with a parallel stroke, but I have not personally seen it. I have tested this back hand english method, and have been able to get the CB to do things I just cannot get it to do when aiming parallel.

Take my story with a grain of salt.

(MMMMMM mmmmmmm.. Salty story
Russ

That's how I've always aimed on those types of shots. With regard to the shot I first posted, when I parallel aim, the cue ball comes more to the center of the table rather than staying on the left side. Using the technique you described, I can draw the ball back without touching the side rail.