Is there an established system for discussing stroke speed?

mattkenefick

mattkenefick

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
You can discuss amounts of English in tips. Half tip, full tip, two tips, etc.

You can discuss aiming with a lot of systems: Diamonds, ghost ball, mirrors, etc.

Stroke speed is relative though. It's hard to say "Shoot it softly" because that can mean anything. Is there any scale that exists for stroke speed people generally practice?

I was thinking something like this where you could practice it, get consistent, but then also be able to talk about it by saying... "Speed is about 3 diamonds."

EDIT: I'm not looking for advice for myself about stroke, I'm trying to figure out a way to break down the barrier of communication between players. Like if you're shooting with a friend and suggesting how to shoot something... When I say "Soft" it doesn't necessarily mean the same thing to him. I have friends that play in league, and they've told me about stories when they say "Shoot soft" and the guy shoots way too hard. And that's because of different understandings of what "Soft" means. I was trying to find a way to solve the communication issue and be able to say "Shoot it with half tip forward, full ball, with about a 2 diamond stroke speed." Speed is the only thing that currently can't be communicated correctly from person to person.

ea186


Anyone have ideas or know of something that works well?
 
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Stroke speed should never be more than what you need.
It should also never be less than what you need.
That's my system. Works.....but it takes years....
 
1/2 table length, 1 table length, 1 1/2 table length, 2 table lengths...

Can make a system that makes sense to you using those reference points - eg. 1/2 (very soft), 2 (lag speed/soft), 3 (medium), 4 (hard)
 
I was thinking on the grounds of being able to talk about it with other people, not necessarily for yourself. Like if you were a commentator and you were saying how someone was about to hit the shot, or if you wanted to advise someone in a league how to hit the shot, you'd need a common ground.

I wrote this up on another thread somewhere:

Successful communication is about having a common grounds for understanding which means both parties have to meet in the middle. So when you learn new words in Spanish, you associate it with a phrase or word in English.

If we can apply that to stroke speed, we have to find something more factual both parties can't debate rather than something relative. Fast, slow, those are relative to.. a car? a spaceship? a snail? It simply won't work; which is why I mention having a type of Scoville scale.

Each person would have to learn it and practice it, but it could become universal. Speed is measured by distance traveled within a certain period of time. So let's say this drill became popular, or required: http://pad.chalkysticks.com/image/ea186

Now you're talking on a similar ground. Switching from a bar Valley to a tournament Diamond may have differences in felt speed, but you are still talking about a "1 diamond stroke" vs a "6 diamond stroke."

Obviously you'd have to play with the table a minute or two to see if your "2 diamond stroke" is true, too fast, or too slow. But at the end of the day, it's a gauge of speed relative to the table you're playing on which both people can understand.

If you were to shoot a "2 diamond stroke" on the Valley or the Diamond, you'd have the same result because it's expecting to travel a certain distance relative speed to the table. You could tell somebody, "Well, in order to get shape on the 3, you're going to shoot half a tip forward, full ball, with a 2 diamond stroke" and it should translate equally to both the Valley and the Diamond.

A newer player wouldn't understand, but then again, it's hard to explain english + angle to them also. It requires a bit of practice to get to a certain bottom line.
Click to expand...
 
Its all feel, but there are some guidelines. Determine a 'medium' stroke for today ( based on table speed and conditions ). Play as many shots as possible with that medium stroke
speed ( it will vary from day to day ). Once you have that medium feel, you know how to
hit a shot hard or soft. Knowing what hard and soft are, you know how much spin to
put on the CB when using english. First thing I do is find a medium stroke for the day.
Second is find the 'center' of the cue ball for that day ( it changes a bit every day for me )
Good luck
 
Hmm...have to say the same thing. Table length. It'll be relevant to every table and you can say "he hit it about 2 table lengths speed".

Probably some other way to express this, haven't ever heard anything besides things like "slow, medium, hard, fast" over the years but I'm sure someone on here has.
 
Scott Lee and Randy G have a system like this, with numbers associated with the cue ball traveling X number of diamonds.
 
BRussell said:
Scott Lee and Randy G have a system like this, with numbers associated with the cue ball traveling X number of diamonds.
Click to expand...

It is simple to work with and understand. It's a great drill.
It's easy to refer to. I might tell myself 2speed or 3speed during PSR.
 
mattkenefick said:
You can discuss amounts of English in tips. Half tip, full tip, two tips, etc.

You can discuss aiming with a lot of systems: Diamonds, ghost ball, mirrors, etc.

Stroke speed is relative though. It's hard to say "Shoot it softly" because that can mean anything. Is there any scale that exists for stroke speed people generally practice?

I was thinking something like this where you could practice it, get consistent, but then also be able to talk about it by saying... "Speed is about 3 diamonds."

EDIT: I'm not looking for advice for myself about stroke, I'm trying to figure out a way to break down the barrier of communication between players. Like if you're shooting with a friend and suggesting how to shoot something... When I say "Soft" it doesn't necessarily mean the same thing to him. I have friends that play in league, and they've told me about stories when they say "Shoot soft" and the guy shoots way too hard. And that's because of different understandings of what "Soft" means. I was trying to find a way to solve the communication issue and be able to say "Shoot it with half tip forward, full ball, with about a 2 diamond stroke speed." Speed is the only thing that currently can't be communicated correctly from person to person.

ea186


Anyone have ideas or know of something that works well?
Click to expand...
RandyG and his team of instructors have great way to communicate stroke speed.
 
On top of what I said above:
Some of my soft shots are close to being medium shots with the harder tips.
So that's a huge factor too.
 
Ball Click
You hear the stroke, it's priceless when you know how to use it.
The sound and feel work together rather than just one on it's own.

Standing over the shot feeling the weight of the cue, sliding the cue back and forth through a soft bridge, just gearing up for the proper click.

Go in any pool hall, turn your back and just listen. You can tell where the players are that are hitting the balls correctly and where the inconsistent slammers are.
Use your hearing to help bring out your natural.

It's different than rail speed and very easy to learn.
 
Scott's system really does simplify the amount of energy needed to consistently achieve control over your stroke velocity to move the cue ball.
 
I think it`s helpful to draw out the path of the cueball, and ask them to roll the ball that distance. If you need to stun it, add like two diamonds. If you want to follow it, subtract two diamonds etc.

But yeah in essence ask them to roll to a spot but if you add or subtract diamaonds, it`ll end up in the right spot based on where they hit the ball.

So the foundation is based on rolling the ball, then you build off that.

Or you could ask them to pretend they`re rolling to a certain spot, and based on draw or follow, ask them to hit it like 10% harder or softer etc.
 
Check out this dude named "the oyster." He is a little weird, but has brilliant ideas with one diamond shaped markers..so, one diamond follow, one, two diamond follow, two
 
Mother Drill #5 is all about Speed Control.

One of our most productive workshops!

randyg
 
Speed is as subjective to the individual as it is to the table & the weather.

To assign numbers to speed is futile IMO, especially if the defining parameter is the distance the ball travels on a table with no hitting of an object ball.

There are TOO many teaching contrivances, IMO. If one wants contrivance then they should design them themselves & they will be a more natural & individual fit.

The subconscious mind is an amazing entity & can do amazing things like deciding exactly what speed to hit a cut shot & go 3 rails to a spot while using outside running english. It might be 2.768 on any numbered scale. Who thinks that they can divide any scale of speeds down to that? The subconscious mind does not need or want numbers & they are road blocks in my opinion.

There are no REAL numbered speeds for that kind of operation. Yesterdays speed 2 on table x is not today's speed 2 on table z, at least not in the mind & arm that generate it.

A number would only be an approximation that might get one 'in the ball park. If one uses numbers in their conscious mind as it relates to the hit, one is putting up considerable road blocks for the subconscious mind, IMO.

That's how I see it with my nearly 50 years of experience playing the game.

Best Wishes to ALL,
Rick

PS Duckie/Greg often points out that the only true way to define speed for the science stuff is a distance per time frame of reference. soft, medium, hard, 2 speed , 3 speed, etc. means nothing. Is a 2 on a slow 9 ft. table the same as a 2 on a fast 7 ft. table? No it's not. Time & experience & the subconscious mind are the answers to speed control.
 
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ENGLISH! said:
Speed is as subjective to the individual as it is to the table & the weather.

To assign numbers to speed is futile IMO, especially if the defining parameter is the distance the ball travels on a table with no hitting of an object ball.

There are TOO many teaching contrivances, IMO. If one wants contrivance then they should design them themselves & they will be a more natural & individual fit.

The subconscious mind is an amazing entity & can do amazing things like deciding exactly what speed to hit a cut shot & go 3 rails to a spot while using outside running english. It might be 2.768 on any numbered scale. Who thinks that they can divide any scale of speeds down to that? The subconscious mind does not need or want numbers & they are road blocks in my opinion.

There are no REAL numbered speeds for that kind of operation. Yesterdays speed 2 on table x is not today's speed 2 on table z, at least not in the mind & arm that generate it.

A number would only be an approximation that might get one 'in the ball park. If one uses numbers in their conscious mind as it relates to the hit, one is putting up considerable road blocks for the subconscious mind, IMO.

That's how I see it with my nearly 50 years of experience playing the game.

Best Wishes to ALL,
Rick

PS Duckie/Greg often points out that the only true way to define speed for the science stuff is a distance per time frame of reference. soft, medium, hard, 2 speed , 3 speed, etc. means nothing. Is a 2 on a slow 9 ft. table the same as a 2 on a fast 7 ft. table? No it's not. Time & experience & the subconscious mind are the answers to speed control.
Click to expand...
Hey here ya go again breaking it down to the lowest common denominator. Thanks for reducing it to simple terms.
 
There are two ways to look at stroke speed.

One is real world measurement of the cue movement over time....like inches over second and that's has three components.....the back stroke and transition from back to forward and last forward stroke. The cue movement is just like that's of a piston rod.

The other is more difficult to convey. Like what is needed to execute the rate of the three components of the cue movement.

That's the artistry, feel side of a stroke. I never try to explain stroke speed. It's impossible to convey in words what is need to do shots.

A person has to experience the need stroke speed, that's the only way to know.

A person must able to have very fine muscle control to accurately control the cue speed in order to make the slightest change in cue speed.

It's a stroke, not a swing. The stroke is where the music is made. I can finger three cords of a song, no problem, but it's the rythum needed in my right arm where the music is made. No one can describe in words how for me to do this. I have to, in this case listen, and try to repeat.

Same with learning to have a stroke that makes sweet music.
 
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