Is there an established system for discussing stroke speed?

Anyone can get on a table & hit some lag shots & some 3 rail 'kick' shots, etc. to get a feel for the speed of the cloth. The subconscious mind is what takes in that 'information'. Contrived targets have been defined & NOT the actual stroke speed. There are rather many shots that are hit at much less than lag speed or speed 1. How would one communicate those? . 315 or .678 of speed 1?

I think the OP was asking about how to communicate to someone on a table at what stroke speed to hit a shot in order to get the CB to a certain location, such as a team mate or captain would be advising a player. Naturally if both players use the same contrived method of describing stroke speed they would be better able to communicate that, but.., everyone does not use the same such contrived methods.

I did not think the OP was looking for where to take lessons, that, everyone would have to take, just so stroke speed could be discussed.
I would very much like to see a legitimate demonstration of a beginner that has been given the numbered stroke speed designations then play the ghost a game of 9 ball & have an experienced player tell the beginner at what stroke speed designations to hit the shots in order to get position & ONLY use the whole numbers. If anyone thinks that they are actually playing well while doing exactly that, I would say that they are deluding themselves perhaps with some confirmation bias. One does not consciously know what the subconscious mind does & the adjustments that it directs to the body. Shots will require 1.44 speed & 2.37 speed. How often does one practice drills for that as well as what all of the different collisions will take off of the distance that the CB will travel?

Naturally those that have paid to learn such contrived methods are going to defend & recommend them as are those that sell & teach them.

Undoubtedly, some like a defined method of how hard to stroke every shot while others will go with the feel that they have garnered over time learning the game. I think the numbered method will retard the advancement of precision in that area. It is a road block that the subconscious mind must contend with for every shot that is not an exact fit. The conscious mind says speed 2 & the subconscious mind is saying 'no you fool, it's only a 1.667'. Actually I do not think the subconscious mind uses numbers at all in that regard.
With the drills, one is grooving only a set number of stroke speeds or rather a set amount of distance travel as the stroke speed to obtain them will be different from table to table & day to day.

To each his or her own, but to answer the OP's question...
until we are ALL equal performing robots using the same contrived methods, I do not see a universal means of communicating actual stroke speed. That said, contrived distance targets can easily be defined, but then it would still require factoring in each individual shot & what it will take out of that pre-planned distance of travel of the CB for the CB to arrive at the precise intended destination. That is too much of a conscious contrivance & calculations, at least for me. I think everyone's subconscious mind is much better equipped & capable of making those 'calculations'. I NEVER think or relate any specific designated distance to what speed I stroke a shot. For me, it is always the physical stopping location & the route it will take to get there. But... it is extremely difficult, if not impossible to teach TRUE feel. The only REAL True way to learn such is by the experience of repetition. I personally see actual varying game situations as much much better than contrived drills.

But as I said, to each his or her own.

Best Wishes for All.

PS1 If one can make the day to day adjustments for those contrived targets, then why can't one make the adjustments for any actual playing target length? The answer is they can... with some time & experience of hitting the different specific shots vs the defined contrived target distances. There comes a time when one must or should just PLAY the Game. Often times credit is given to the wrong entity. Many times it is our subconscious mind that deserves the credit vs. any drill or even a lesson. Time & experience are all that the subconscious mind needs... and for the conscious mind to stop putting up road blocks. Where should the true credit be given? I think it is time & experience & the individual that is spending the time & getting the experience & their subconscious mind.

PS2 Sorry for the length of the post
 
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To answer the question, there is not a set standard for what is consider a slow, med, or fast stroke speed.

I find it do It interesting the need to put a number with a speed. Like this 1,2,3 and so on.

What's a the the difference between a stroke speed for say a 2 stroke speed and say for a 2.25 stroke speed? How do you know which to use when?

You cannot set a standard for stroke speed. There is way too many types of shots, table conditions and so on.

So, what about a stun shot? Fast stroke, and done right the CB stops dead.

How do you tell someone what speed of stroke to do that shot with?

You can't.
 
While some players may be able to use a gauge of the cb traveling up and down the table by itself and transform that to a ball pocketing situation with position, most players can't. I know I can't.

If you're coaching a player and, as in the OP's post, you want to tell him to hit the ball softly, give him more information. You can say something like --- just barely get the object ball to the pocket --- that soft.

Coaching players also means understanding them and being able to relate to what their frame of references are. Often it will take a few tries to get on the same wavelength.
 
There is a very significant reason why we teach a numerical scale to represent speed. That reason is that the human brain is already hardwired to accept, "like", and process numerical scales and systems. We use numbers in everything we do, on a daily basis, no matter where you live on this planet. While extraordinarily accurate, training this speed scale is dependent upon an accurate and repeatable stroke. As mentioned, this skill can be utilized to adjust to a different table's playing conditions very quickly (table size, cloth speed, rail conditions, etc.)...often significantly faster than your opponent. If it takes the average player a game or two to adjust to a table, and you can do it in 2-3 shots, you will have a statistical advantage, even if your opponent plays better than you. This makes a great base knowledge and understanding of speed, because it is the same for all players, regardless of ability...therefore utilizing the same language to communicate with one another, instead of using arbitrary terms like soft, medium and hard (which obviously have to mean different things to different people). Don't knock it if you haven't tried it! :grin:

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
 
ps611846...Wow...you have no idea how wrong you are. Grip pressure and backswing are simple to teach...as is speed control. Since you mentioned it, grip pressure does have NOTHING to with speed control. You can break the rack with the same grip pressure as you use for a lag. I'd be happy to demonstrate this to you...if you're interested.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

ps611846 said:
Grip pressure and backswing. Nobody can teach you this. You have to learn what works for you. Many good players will tell you that they control speed by aplying different pressures on their grip.

And now, I am waiting for a new "experiment" by "az science guys" And the results of the experiment : "Grip pressure HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH SPEED CONTROL"

Pls, don't "buy" that stuff. It will hurt your game.

Play well
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While I wouldn't call it "rather many", there are certainly stroke speeds that are less than a "1 speed". We call them "finesse" speeds, and utilize a separate skill in shooting these shots. You really should stay out of threads you know nothing about. You're, once again, the principal "Negative Nellie" in a thread where there is overwhelming support for a system that is not only accurate and repeatable, but to applicable to any poolplayer, on any table. This is based on their personal experience, rather than 'blindly' buying into my gobbledegook! :rolleyes:

This what got you banned recently Rick.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

ENGLISH! said:
There are rather many shots that are hit at much less than lag speed or speed 1. How would one communicate those? . 315 or .678 of of speed 1?
Click to expand...
 
Math & numbers are man made contrivance & the human mind & body are NOT 'hard wired' for numbers.

We are much much more 'hard wired' for visual assessment. A cave man did not use a numbering system when he threw his spear at an animal trying to get meat for food.

A quarterback does not say to himself that he is going to throw the ball with a numbered arm motion so that the ball goes a set distance assigned to that numbered arm motion.

Nor does an outfielder use a numbered arm motion for throwing home from different locations all over the outfield (Oh the last throw was a 3 but this one is a 4 arm motion throw.)

Nor does a tennis player swing the racket based on assigned numbers to get the ball over the net & inside the baseline.

Our bio-mechanics are not numbered & we are NOT 'hard wired' to use numbers as they are a man made contrivance.

Man made contrivances are like road blocks to our nature.

Just food for thought.

Each individual is at will to play however they choose.

Naturally or by man made contrivance.

Best Wishes to ALL.

PS Personal attack in 10, 9, 8,...
 
Scott Lee said:
ps611846...Wow...you have no idea how wrong you are. Grip pressure and backswing are simple to teach...as is speed control. Since you mentioned it, grip pressure does have NOTHING to with speed control. You can break the rack with the same grip pressure as you use for a lag. I'd be happy to demonstrate this to you...if you're interested.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
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TAR Podcast #22 with Johnny Archer and Francisco Bustamante, 59.30 min.

I guess Francisco Bustamante and Alex Pagulayan also have no idea how wrong they are ?

If your method works for you, that's fine. But most top players will tell you that they control speed with their grip. If they want to speak about stuff like that......
 
ps611846 said:
TAR Podcast #22 with Johnny Archer and Francisco Bustamante, 59.30 min.

I guess Francisco Bustamante and Alex Pagulayan also have no idea how wrong they are ?

If your method works for you, that's fine. But most top players will tell you that they control speed with their grip. If they want to speak about stuff like that......
Click to expand...

You are wasting your time with certain individuals...

But please do not let others keep you from sharing your wealth of true knowledge.

Best 2 You, Sir.

PS1 TAR Pod Cast #22 https://youtu.be/n3nY89tBQyg?t=3564

PS2 Then it goes into different strokes, follow through & spin, but... it will be said that the Average Joe can't do what the Pros can do. No they can not... if they never try to do what the Pros do. They will always stay at the Average Joe level & always be Average Joes...& Janes. CJ Wiley & Earl Stricklend & Nic Varner, Fran Crimi etc., etc., etc., know nothing.(Green ink denotes sacasm.)
 
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Didn't know that computers had ink. lol

Many of the people (pros)that are referred to established their skills before long before SPF was taught.

There probably many ways to teach speed but I believe that they all require repetition.

The "subjective" side plays a part in all of our lives. However, I have never seen it used so constantly to bring negativity to any thread you seem to enter.

If there is a subjective side there must also be an objective side.

If you have a method of learning speed control that doesn't require repetition I would be happy to hear or read about that method.

I don't feel that you are sincere when you use "Best 2 You." but I guess it as good as many others.

You are obviously a learned man, but I for one would appreciate seeing the positive from you. Something that I can learn from instead of the continuous, polite demeaning of others. Share your knowledge whether it be HAMB or something more detailed.

Then I can say "Thanks."
 
GaryB said:
I don't feel that you are sincere when you use "Best 2 You." but I guess it as good as many others.

You are obviously a learned man, but I for one would appreciate seeing the positive from you. Something that I can learn from instead of the continuous, polite demeaning of others. Share your knowledge whether it be HAMB or something more detailed.

Then I can say "Thanks."
Click to expand...

Best 2 You....... Similar to a Dear John letter and writing Thanks for understanding at the end.
A positive side had been requested again and again. Not in the genes. It's a bar room argument or nothing. Some people will find fault with a perfect circle. Will bring stress to where there is none. Would kick a gift horse in the mouth.
Scott & Randy's system. Too easy to understand? Too easy to use for communication?
Best2You. Explain the positive side of this. What do you like about it. Keep it simple ... No need to write like Professor Irwin Corey.
 
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I think I missed that part about stroke speed. Guess I will have to watch it again. Shame Alex wasn't on it to explain why his grip changes for different shots.

Interesting that Johnny seemed quite surprised at what Francisco says he does. Though he caught on later.

I enjoyed Francisco explaining why there is tape on the butt of his cue, and Johnny's advice to tap the cue on the floor on an angle so you don't break the butt plate. Amazing sometimes what you can learn from professionals, if they want to talk about it.





ps611846 said:
TAR Podcast #22 with Johnny Archer and Francisco Bustamante, 59.30 min.

I guess Francisco Bustamante and Alex Pagulayan also have no idea how wrong they are ?

If your method works for you, that's fine. But most top players will tell you that they control speed with their grip. If they want to speak about stuff like that......
Click to expand...
 
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GaryB said:
Didn't know that computers had ink. lol

Many of the people (pros)that are referred to established their skills before long before SPF was taught.

There probably many ways to teach speed but I believe that they all require repetition.

The "subjective" side plays a part in all of our lives. However, I have never seen it used so constantly to bring negativity to any thread you seem to enter.

If there is a subjective side there must also be an objective side.

If you have a method of learning speed control that doesn't require repetition I would be happy to hear or read about that method.

I don't feel that you are sincere when you use "Best 2 You." but I guess it as good as many others.

You are obviously a learned man, but I for one would appreciate seeing the positive from you. Something that I can learn from instead of the continuous, polite demeaning of others. Share your knowledge whether it be HAMB or something more detailed.

Then I can say "Thanks."
Click to expand...

My mistake. I should have said green "text".

Everything 'new' is not always best or even better. In fact many times what is new is far inferior to the older.

I am not sure I understand what you mean by your use of "subjective".

There usually is an objective view but not always, or at least it may not be definitive. Making subjective matters appear to be objective is the issue with rather many here. That is when it needs to be pointed out that what is being portrayed as definitively objective is nothing more than someone's subjective opinion & really should carry no more weight than that. It really is an issue when some almost always make incorrect statements to prop up what they are pushing.

You're correct & I have said that it takes time & experience, repetitions, for the subconscious to build a data base to then offer up the proper solutions. Anyone can do it & without any contrived drills or assigning designations that can actually be limiting & are, IMO.

I am sincere in whatever I post. I can have a basic fundamental disagreement with an individual & still have well wishes for them. I do NOT wish bad things on anyone. I've prayed for those that have actually said & insinuated that they hate me.

My rep page & message box are full from those that see the positive in me & what I post. If you are pitching your tent in one camp & I am not in that camp then it might be difficult for YOU to see me as others do that are not pitching their tent in any specific camp.

Nothing but the Best of Everything for You & Yours,
Rick
 
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I do 3 things with my lower level (2-4) players and they understand it and find it beneficial.

1.) I use the term lag speed as they hit that shoot often and know it fairly well and can relate it to the current table conditions. Not perfect, but well enough that they know about how to stroke it to get the ball to go about 12 feet on our Valley tables.

2.) I tell them how many inches they want the cue ball to travel. So if I tell them to hit it hard enough to go 3' they can process that in their mind. If I tell them hit it hard enough to go 6" they can process that.

3.) If they are bad about hitting too hard all the time then I advise them to shorten up their bridge so they can't stroke so long and gain as much speed.

I never advise them to hit off center unless they are dead in the water and there is simply no choice and I never advise higher level players a speed, just a location they want the ball to end up, unless they specifically ask for speed help.
 
Stroke speed is impossible to learn through written explanation or verbal communication, you may as sing underwater.

Hitting a ball up and down the table will not teach you stroke speed, table speed, maybe.

Once you have established a solid foundation and are accurate to your strike point, Stroke Speed is on top of the list.

All tables and conditions will vary and some could be extreme. It's usually the players that find their speed for the conditions presented to them that come out ahead.

Finding the speed of a table is simple stuff, controlling your speed for those conditions is another story.

To say speed control is crucial is an understatement, it's almost a crime.

When the cue ball collides with an object ball from full ball to any angle with different types of strokes such as a stun, draw, follow, kill, stun draw, float, stun follow, natural roll, to name a few ; with any spin, dead ball, inside or outside, extreme spin or an eyelash, your speed must be in control.

Learning stroke speed can get very intense. It may very well be the single part of your game that will truly make you a player, when you control the cue ball you are a player, it's as simple as that. Aiming and pocketing balls is easy to learn compared to the motor skills of speed.

The only way to learn stroke speed is to either play for thousands of hours, or do speed drills and play for thousands of hours.

There are 10 drills that I know for speed technique. When executed properly in increments of 3 and 4 you can master your speed control, follow stroke is an 18 point drill.Grip and bridge changes play a big part of your technique and ape index which opens up your flow.

Once learned you will be able to hit a layup or send the cue ball 20 ft into position, with any stroke at will.

If you want to learn table speed; hit the balls back and forth, learn the rails that are fast, slow or dead, playing long or short. Then get intense and learn stroke technique and speed control and play pool.

Sincerely: SS
 
We'll just have to agree to disagree. It is neither difficult nor impossible to teach these things through written communicaton, as well as verbal and physical demonstration. We have accomplished this with thousands of players. While I certainly agree with several points you made, I not only believe it can be taught...but do it on a daily basis.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

SmoothStroke said:
Stroke speed is impossible to learn through written explanation or verbal communication, you may as sing underwater.

Hitting a ball up and down the table will not teach you stroke speed, table speed, maybe.

Once you have established a solid foundation and are accurate to your strike point, Stroke Speed is on top of the list.

All tables and conditions will vary and some could be extreme. It's usually the players that find their speed for the conditions presented to them that come out ahead.

Finding the speed of a table is simple stuff, controlling your speed for those conditions is another story.

To say speed control is crucial is an understatement, it's almost a crime.

When the cue ball collides with an object ball from full ball to any angle with different types of strokes such as a stun, draw, follow, kill, stun draw, float, stun follow, natural roll, to name a few ; with any spin, dead ball, inside or outside, extreme spin or an eyelash, your speed must be in control.

Learning stroke speed can get very intense. It may very well be the single part of your game that will truly make you a player, when you control the cue ball you are a player, it's as simple as that. Aiming and pocketing balls is easy to learn compared to the motor skills of speed.

The only way to learn stroke speed is to either play for thousands of hours, or do speed drills and play for thousands of hours.

There are 10 drills that I know for speed technique. When executed properly in increments of 3 and 4 you can master your speed control, follow stroke is an 18 point drill.Grip and bridge changes play a big part of your technique and ape index which opens up your flow.

Once learned you will be able to hit a layup or send the cue ball 20 ft into position, with any stroke at will.

If you want to learn table speed; hit the balls back and forth, learn the rails that are fast, slow or dead, playing long or short. Then get intense and learn stroke technique and speed control and play pool.

Sincerely: SS
Click to expand...
 
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