Is there any way to determine cut angle in degrees?

[Jal]

... I don't delve into that arena for I give my charge numbers to the mathematicians, structural and thermal analysis gurus who are the subject matter experts and have their respective pedigrees.

I include the math if anyone wants to check on the logic (fat chance, but just in case).

What you revealed to me about the diagonal on the the pool table being ~26 degrees is that though I aim at the edge of the OB, it goes into the pocket because of CIT since I shoot center CB. To neutralize the CIT, I should shoot with a hair of outside English and deal with the resulting squirt - to get the calculated angle.

Frankly, from the cueball position you described (near the sixth diamond on the long rail), and the fact that the cueball is almost certainly rolling by the time it gets to the OB (you even said you hit high), I very much doubt that enough CIT is taking place to compensate for a true half-ball hit. A rolling ball produces very little horizontal throw, especially at small and moderate cut angles, and not really a heck of a lot at larger angles. Of course, you could have been playing with some very sticky balls, but it seems more likely (to me) that you're not really aiming at the edge of the OB. (But then I haven't worked out the cut angle from the side rail position as I'm not exactly sure where you locate the cueball.)

Just discussing.

Jim

 

[duckie]

Hi there,

No matter how you slice it or dice it our eyes naturally fractionally aim. 1/3 1/2 1/4 1/8 are identifiable measurements that we can visualize in our mind.

Whether you know it's 1/4 or just guess at the amount you are fractionally aiming.

Actually, all your eyes do is provide visual input to your brain. Your brain does the rest. Also, I'd like to see real data that proves this point you state cause I don't believe it. I don't see my shot in fractionals at all.

Oh yeah, all this math about cut angle hasn't taken in account the size difference between the CB and OB. Yes, there are different size cue balls.

 

[Slide Rule]

yes what ever works for you.
i just think so many players on here think to much.
you have to go out and do it.

Yes you need everything.

In the end, you develop feel for the shot and just line up and shoot. The process on how you get there is varied.

In general, the technical approach is supporting information which differs from actually making a selected shot. I have seen many who focus on the technical, when shooting several thousand shots would have been a faster way. A guy with technical background will try to find shortcuts in gaining the necessary experience. Its kind of like advancement without paying your dues.

Having a technical approach helps pull you out of a slump. It is back to technical basics then go from there.

 

[duckie]

But you are woefully mistaken. It's easy to say that knowing degree angles for cut shots is useless because the entirety of the pool world has no application for this information. Very few people actually know how to apply angle measurements in order to pocket, kcik or bank at a ball/target. In the near future you'll see what the full scope and power of this kind of information is... that is when Robert Publishes his work.

Really the argument that knowing 1 degree difference won't help you get position or show you the proper way to stroke a shot to make a ball is moot because you (pool world in general) don't have a way to apply the knowledge. But you should know that 1 degree difference in a shot is and can be everything... especially if you are an aspiring 1 pocket player.

I myself, to this point, have done things the old fashioned way. Grinding out 8 and 9 hour sessions daily for summers at a time in order to improve my game. I've done well with that method and have beaten top players. I've traveled to tournaments across the country, gambled, taken lessons, the whole 9. I know that's one of the biggest factors in being able to compete against and beat the top pros. With that said, seeing what im seeing now, and looking at the top pros, i can identify their weaknesses, and realize their limits. Their models are restricted and mine won't be. It will happen in time and when you have access to the full scope of things i think you'll change your mind.

I know because i've had the great fortune of being exposed to this information before alot of people have. I know that when I officially apply these things and it becomes the new foundation for my game, that it's gonna be tough action out there for alot of people. I love this game and everything associated with it (for the most part). You sound like you're very passionate about it also. So i wouldn't go so far as to say there's no value in more information because when it comes down to it, the more you know, the more weapons you have, and the higher the probability that you'll outlast your opponent.

Knowledge isn't alone enough of course, you gotta get in the box and tear it up and apply what you've learned through those quality hours. I think you agree with that. But would you rather spend 1,000 hours spent of trial and error, or would you rather spend 1,000 hours executing every single time exactly what you intend to... I'm telling you it's scary stuff to think about. Good luck in your game and endeavors and I hope you get a chance to really see this stuff in action soon. Catch you out there.

:thumbup:

No, I'm not mistaken. Prove that knowing the actual degree of a cut is of value in any form and not that it works for you, cause I don't need to know the actual degree of a cut to run balls. I never even think in terms of degree. I just see where the CB needs to be on the table to make the OB. I know, thats just way to simple for some, but thats all there is to it.

Pool is all about trail and error. There is no way around this. Even if you know the degree of the cut, doesn't mean you will make the shot everytime. You have you do trail and error, there is no way around this, so why waste time on something that is not needed. Pool is hard enough without adding useless information to the shot equation.

You can read all you want, watch all the DVDs you want, but that is not the same thing as doing something. You have to do it and to do it well takes trail and error and practice.

There are no shortcuts. There are no secerts to making a ball and getting position. It all hard work, commitment, and determination that makes one a great player, nothing else.

I've been trying to add some Zen to by pool, so I'd share a little thoughts from the book "Zen and the Marital Arts":
"Technical knowledge is not enough. One must transcend techniques so that the art becomes an artless art, growing out of the unconscious" Daisetu Suzki
"Flow with wahtever may happen and let your mind be free: Stay centered by accepting whatever you are doing. This is the ultiamte." Chuang-Tzu

Good book, relates well to pool.

 

[Jal]

At times people develop labels (words) to help them identify a sequence of events. For instance you may have a set of labels for the amount of power that you use when playing pool. There is a “soft shot,” “medium shot” and a “hard shot.” These descriptive labels are used by your brain to determine what should be done when you coordinate your muscles. While it is probably true that no two “hard shots” are identical because there are limits to human physiology and the different requirements for each shot, the label is a template that is used with other templates such as “a little running English,” to help you decide how to play a shot.

Labels help you organize your non-verbalized thinking. With a sufficient amount of practice you have developed many templates to assist you. It is partially for this reason that you recognize a particular shot and the several adjustments that are needed. When you tell the less experienced player to use “a little low running English,” he doesn’t know what you are talking about, why he should use it, or what it will do.

With sufficient experience and attention to detail the experienced player “sees” things at the table that the less experienced player does not see. That is why he “knows” that your next shot is a scratch shot. While he may not say to himself that the shot is two degrees off and therefore the CB will go to the center pocket, he has learned to make exquisite calculations about colliding spheres. Unfortunately some people do not have the verbal skills to tell you what they see but they may indeed see those small angles – and they know it is the angles they are using. The person who can verbalize what he sees and then uses this information is better positioned to make these templates and then integrate them with the other templates for determining a shot.

While you may not see the need for precise determinations of cut angles and how this information can be used to improve you game it does not mean that it is not useful. Think of it this way, precise language serves a function for organizing all of our behaviors. Perhaps it is worth learning to estimate precise angles and how they can be used – with or without words.

Dr. Joe,

Excellent post. While I can't say I'm qualified to agree with you, everything you say rings true. In the particular case of the numerical values of cut angles, most of us will likely never feel a need to know them, generally speaking. But in the context of your discussion, it wouuld probably help, even if we never consciously used them to arrive at aim lines.

Jim