Is this a foul?
- Thread starter plshrk22
- Start date
It is absolutely not a foul if the tip strikes the CB in this fashion. The CB is being hit with the tip, in a forward motion, which is legal.
Only a foul if the player somehow mis-hits it (ie; striking it with ferule, double hitting cb, etc).
Have seen it tons in gambling (done it myself) and have seen it in tournaments as well.
Only a foul if the player somehow mis-hits it (ie; striking it with ferule, double hitting cb, etc).
Have seen it tons in gambling (done it myself) and have seen it in tournaments as well.
plshrk22 said:Its moving up though not forward? I am not trying to argue I just am curious because I have never seen this done before. When I saw it I thought the guy I was gambling with was a dirty SOB. Well I still kind of do think that though
It is absolutely, 100%, going in a forward motion. It's also moving up.
Here are some old threads about this shot:
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?p=346830
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=31861
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?p=414116
Under WPA rules, I think it's now illegal under rule 8.2
EDIT: Oops, I guess it's only a foul if it can be agree that it's not going in a forward motion. I would interpret the rule to mean, "a motion that is primarily in the forward direction", which I don't think is true of this shot. I think most of it's velocity is transverse to the cue.
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?p=346830
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=31861
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?p=414116
Under WPA rules, I think it's now illegal under rule 8.2
8.2 Shot
A shot begins when the tip contacts the cue ball due to a forward stroke motion of the cue stick. A shot ends when all balls in play have stopped moving and spinning. A shot is said to be legal if the shooter did not foul during the shot.
A shot begins when the tip contacts the cue ball due to a forward stroke motion of the cue stick. A shot ends when all balls in play have stopped moving and spinning. A shot is said to be legal if the shooter did not foul during the shot.
EDIT: Oops, I guess it's only a foul if it can be agree that it's not going in a forward motion. I would interpret the rule to mean, "a motion that is primarily in the forward direction", which I don't think is true of this shot. I think most of it's velocity is transverse to the cue.
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This is very similar to a "scoop" jump, which is illegal. Sounds like the shot is not legal.
If you hit this way, the tip would be in contact with the ball for a longer time than normal, which is a "push" shot, also illegal.
If you hit this way, the tip would be in contact with the ball for a longer time than normal, which is a "push" shot, also illegal.
Cuebacca said:
You're right about rule 8.2 (I was just about to post it), and it's definitely not forward motion. Just visualize the arc that the tip moves in when you lift it "straight" up, pivoting the stick at the butt cap. It actually moves backward.
This is a foul.
pj
chgo
plshrk22 said:It just looked to dirty to be legal
I think the shot IS illegal. There is no forward motion of the stick, it "pushes" the ball, "scoop" shot. It's an interesting way to hit, but I would argue it if someone did it against me, especially in an organized match.
AZE said:
Actually, as defined by the OP, the shot is absolutely a foul.
"the opponent puts his tip right under the cueball and lifts up to hit it. Apposed to actually stroking he acutally just lifts tip up into cueball. Is this a foul?"
"Up does not mean "forward" it means "up."
Because the ball is round, the tip, when placed near the table can actually move backward and still contact the CB causing it to move forward.
If the player uses a fulcrum method...i.e. just pushing down with the butt hand thereby forcing the tip to rise...like a see saw, then the tip is absolutely moving backward relative to the vertical plane of the original tip position.
For that reason, such a shot will always be called a foul by a knowledgable referee IMHO.
If, instead, the shooter actually lifts the cue with both hands AND causes it to move noticeably forward...AND touches the CB with the tip only...which is VERY difficult to do, then I suppose the shot would be legal.
But to move the cue forward in a way that the ref can SEE it move forward is problematic at best and risks a foul call even if, under stop motion photography, the player might be able to demonstrate forward motion.
Since there is a zero risk way to shoot such a shot legally, it is highly ill-advised to attempt the shot in question. Plus is looks silly! (-:
Regards,
Jim
If someone pulled this on me...I would watch real close.
There is a distinct possibility that at some point during the set up of this shot, the player would completly let go of the cue.....
It is possible that they would have committed a foul even before attempting a move such as this.
There is a distinct possibility that at some point during the set up of this shot, the player would completly let go of the cue.....
It is possible that they would have committed a foul even before attempting a move such as this.
hang-the-9 said:
It's not a push or a scoop, but it's also not a forward stroke, and thus not legal.
Next time he does it, call the foul.
-Andrew
It has been explicitly ruled as a foul. That is not a forward motion of the cue stick (along its axis).plshrk22 said:
Bob Jewett
Chief Editor, WPA Rules Revision, 2008
No. I'm sure you know how they play in your local tournaments, but if the OP wants to know what the actual official rules are, he should know that you have it completely wrong.AZE said: