Is this a true statement???

B

bbb

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Ratta in another post stated this
You hit the CB with 2.5/3mm from your tip. If both tips have the same shape/radius/dime there is absolutley no difference about using a 11,5 or a 13mm tip/shaft

it was in reference to # tips english and a comment by me that 3 tips english with a 13mm shaft /tip wouldnt be exactly the same as 3 tips of a 11.5mm shaft/tip
 
bbb said:
Ratta in another post stated this
You hit the CB with 2.5/3mm from your tip. If both tips have the same shape/radius/dime there is absolutley no difference about using a 11,5 or a 13mm tip/shaft

it was in reference to # tips english and a comment by me that 3 tips english with a 13mm shaft /tip wouldnt be exactly the same as 3 tips of a 11.5mm shaft/tip
Click to expand...
What is important is how far from the center of the cue ball the tip contact patch is. Simple geometry says that if the curvature of two tips is the same, if the displacement from center ball of the cue stick is the same in distance (mm, mils) then the contact patch will be the same distance from center.

The more difficult question is whether simple geometry tells the whole story. As you get more off-center to contact on the shoulder of the chip then the assumptions behind the simple answer are not correct.
 
Bob Jewett said:
What is important is how far from the center of the cue ball the tip contact patch is. Simple geometry says that if the curvature of two tips is the same, if the displacement from center ball of the cue stick is the same in distance (mm, mils) then the contact patch will be the same distance from center.

The more difficult question is whether simple geometry tells the whole story. As you get more off-center to contact on the shoulder of the chip then the assumptions behind the simple answer are not correct.
Click to expand...

2 tips of english with a 11.5mm tip = 23mm from center
2 tips from center with a 13mm tip= 26mm from center
isnt that correct???
thats what im saying
of course if both tips hit the same spot the english is the same
although cant it be argued the smaller tip concentrates the force into a smaller spot??
causing more english??
 
bbb said:
2 tips of english with a 11.5mm tip = 23mm from center
2 tips from center with a 13mm tip= 26mm from center
isnt that correct???

Nope. Because you measure from the outside of the cue tip (the strike area) not the middle of the cue tip.


thats what im saying
of course if both tips hit the same spot the english is the same
although cant it be argued the smaller tip concentrates the force into a smaller spot??
causing more english??
Click to expand...



SPF
randyg
 
randyg said:
SPF
randyg
Click to expand...

Nope. Because you measure from the outside of the cue tip (the strike area) not the middle of the cue tip.

when hitting center ball isnt the center of the cue tip at the center of the cue ball??
so isnt the "outside "of the cue tip distance still larger with the larger tip??
so even if my numbers are wrong
the concept of the distances NOT being the same for 2 tip distance
with an 11.5 mm cue and a 13mm is wrong ??
ie to be clear
you are saying that for any 2 shafts/tip sizes 2 tipps english is the same contact pont??
do i understand you correctly??
 
bbb...The size of the contact patch between tip and CB is constant at about 3mm. It doesn't change significantly regardless of tip size or shape, or where you strike the CB.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
 
Scott Lee said:
bbb...The size of the contact patch between tip and CB is constant at about 3mm. It doesn't change significantly regardless of tip size or shape, or where you strike the CB.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Click to expand...

thats very clear and thank you:wink:
so why do i think its been said that smaller tips can get you closer to the miscue line without miscueing and thats where the opinion says smaller tips help you get more spin
 
See this link for info
http://billiards.colostate.edu/bd_articles/2006/july06.pdf
dr dave's site has lots of info. Because the cue ball is round, as you move away from the center, you do not actually "hit" the cue ball with the very center of the tip. You start hitting closer to the edge of the tip. I personnally think a good stroke has more to do with spin than the shape of the tip. That being said, I use a 5/8's drill bit to make my shapers. This is a little smaller than a dime. It works great for me. If I had a drill bit the size of a dime, I would try it. I basically drill a hole, then use my miter saw to cut down the center of the hole. I then glue a strip of sand paper in the groove created. I have lots of scrap wood. It fits nice in the case and if I lose it, I am a couple of minutes from a replacement. Good luck, John

PS he has slow motion videos that are amazing in what is revealed.
 
bbb said:
thats very clear and thank you:wink:
so why do i think its been said that smaller tips can get you closer to the miscue line without miscueing and thats where the opinion says smaller tips help you get more spin
Click to expand...

Just if you re not able to really visualize where you hit the cueball. Scott wrote (thx Scott :p) again, what it is about. There is no *if* and *but*.
 
The phrase "tips of English" causes the confusion. IMO it doesn't tell you anything.
EFFECT is what you're looking for. How far out from center will give you the desired Effect. When you achieve the desired Effect no matter what dia tip, the contact point is the same place, assuming all else is equal ie stroke, grip, tip hardness, tip radius ....

A smaller tip only allows you to find the desired contact point more easily but doesn't tell you what the Effect will be unless you've studied the matter.

Lastly if we use the phrase "tips of English" then it only stands to reason that 2 tips from center with a 13mm tip will give more English since its a larger offset than 2 tips out with a 12mm tip.
 
Little Joe was saying it should be described as inches from center. Actually fractions of inches rather than tips. I use 1 diamond of side spin to equal 1 tip. Whether it is actually a tip or not, it is the result that I measure as 1 tip..
 
pool101 said:
Little Joe was saying it should be described as inches from center. Actually fractions of inches rather than tips. I use 1 diamond of side spin to equal 1 tip. Whether it is actually a tip or not, it is the result that I measure as 1 tip..
Click to expand...

mark
i have your 2 dvds:wink:
i have to say for someone (me) who has become a student of the game
your 2 dvds should be in EVERY SERIOUS STUDENT OF THE GAME
ther is not alot you will find covered in any instructional dvd that not covered in his 2 dvds:wink::wink:

all of your tips to cue ball action scenarios has improved my game by 2
balls
your description of the plus 2 system is priceless
just my 2 cents
you can tell im enthusiastic of his products
i dont get paid for these endorsements:(
maybe we should talk:grin:
 
3kushn said:
The phrase "tips of English" causes the confusion. IMO it doesn't tell you anything.
EFFECT is what you're looking for. How far out from center will give you the desired Effect. When you achieve the desired Effect no matter what dia tip, the contact point is the same place, assuming all else is equal ie stroke, grip, tip hardness, tip radius ....

A smaller tip only allows you to find the desired contact point more easily but doesn't tell you what the Effect will be unless you've studied the matter.
Click to expand...

Effect is what's key, and you have to study it to use it effectively.
Two tips of English going into the cushion at 30 degrees has a different effect than two tips going into it at 90 degrees.

Quantifying tips of english is essential regardless of how a tip of english is defined. The definition is only important when communicating between players.
 
bbb said:
mark
i have your 2 dvds:wink:
i have to say for someone (me) who has become a student of the game
your 2 dvds should be in EVERY SERIOUS STUDENT OF THE GAME
ther is not alot you will find covered in any instructional dvd that not covered in his 2 dvds:wink::wink:

all of your tips to cue ball action scenarios has improved my game by 2
balls
your description of the plus 2 system is priceless
just my 2 cents
you can tell im enthusiastic of his products
i dont get paid for these endorsements:(
maybe we should talk:grin:
Click to expand...

Thank you, I am glad they are helping.
Mark
 
Mark Avlon said:
Effect is what's key, and you have to study it to use it effectively.
Two tips of English going into the cushion at 30 degrees has a different effect than two tips going into it at 90 degrees.

Quantifying tips of english is essential regardless of how a tip of english is defined. The definition is only important when communicating between players.
Click to expand...
Agreed Mark. My only point is, if you tell 10 people to show you 1 tip of English there's a good chance you'll see 10 different results/ Effect. Therefore the phrase doesn't mean anything unless its further defined. If not then we get the responses like "well 1 tip doesn't work for me, It only works with 1-1/2 tips for that shot. While in reality they're hitting the same spot as your 1 tip.
 
3kushn,

I didn't say it well, but I was agreeing with your excellent point, and wanted to add a little.

Players often get wrapped around the axle with things like this, and miss what's important. We see this all the time with things like elbow drop and the pause.
 
Hardness plays a key in the size of the contact patch... It's not much in some instances but it exists... Tip technology has changed a bunch since the original high speed camera footage was done... Would love to see some new footage running through the major brands of playing and break tips along with the dinosaurs like the triangle......
 
The contact patch using my OB classic pro with a Everest tip medium is 3mm up to SPF speed 3 center ball hit, then starts to increase to 5mm at speed 7. When hitting away my contact patch is 4mm from 1/8" to 3/8" then decreases to 2.5 to 3 mm to my miscue limit.

Now with my 13mm tip medium hardness (not sure of brand) conventional shaft is 6mm up to speed 3 and and increases to 8mm up to speed 8. With spin it was 7mm up to 3/8" away from center then decreasing to 5.5mm to my miscue limit.

When measuring I used the whole patch which could've been slightly increased with chalk residue from the initial hit. I used a Jim Rempe training cb for the shots.

Using 1/8" increments in place of 1 tip or 2 tips away from center seems to be a more accurate way of describing spin. Props to Little Joe for this "tip":thumbup:
 
This has been a common discussion with a good friend of mine. I use a Z shaft and he believes that when trying to hit center ball a miss hit with a smaller shaft puts more english on the ball than a larger shaft and potentially throws the object ball farther off line. My argument has always been the contact patches are the same so a small tip does not put more english on the cueball than a larger tip.

The one instance I do feel a smaller tip could produce more spin than a larger tip is when we are talking about draw. A common cause of miscues when trying to draw is when the tip hits the table before the cueball. A smaller tip would allow you to get lower on the cueball without touching the table than a larger tip would.

Woody
 
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