**Is this CHEATING**
- Thread starter td873
- Start date
not totally sure on the chip count, i know banks was leading by a few thousand? maybe like 25k-20k? something arond there
exactly! there was not even a reason to finish that game, w/Dennis being out already (Before the 8 ball shot), both mcminn and banks knew it was a heads up match race to 21. midwest shootout! i've watched many matches between these 2 in midwest 9 ball tournaments, always put on a show, and last nite was no exception.
You've proven my point.Jude Rosenstock said:
And for your info, it wasn't me in a ring game. It was the highly publicized Olathe tourney. The players there put on a clinic - both in play and (IMO) poor ethical behavior. If you think this will bring pool into the limelight, well your idea of pool's perception doesn't match mine.
Money can be won without cheating, happens all the time...
-td
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A few comments.
First off, it does appear that Orcullo was ruled out as soon as he broke his equipment down, though I'm not sure about that. If that's the case, and Banks knew that, then laying up on the 8 was maybe not collusion, but just trying to get the game over with since at that point it made no difference anyway.
More important, if Orcullo had not been ruled eliminated, then obviously it was cheating. The whole "it's all about the money" ideology is what is keeping pool in the realm of two-bit hustlers rather than honorable professional athletes. Clearly, colluding is cheating. We're not talking about a 2-way moral safety here, we're talking about intentionally leaving an easy shot for one opponent in order to eliminate someone else.
It's supposed to be about the sport of *pool* and not about doing whatever it takes to score some cash. 20k, or whatever it was for first, is peanuts compared to the amount of money in legitimate, organized, professional sports. Instead of robbing each other at every opportunity, show a little honor, and a little longer-term perspective.
And to those who say "anyone" would have done the same, speak for yourself. I doubt that, say, Ralf Souquet or Johnny Archer would have done that. It's unfortunate that many in the pool community think this bottom-feeder behavior is natural and even appropriate.
Again, I won't indict Banks on this, since he played his heart out, and it's my understanding that the rack was over when Dennis broke down his cue.
First off, it does appear that Orcullo was ruled out as soon as he broke his equipment down, though I'm not sure about that. If that's the case, and Banks knew that, then laying up on the 8 was maybe not collusion, but just trying to get the game over with since at that point it made no difference anyway.
More important, if Orcullo had not been ruled eliminated, then obviously it was cheating. The whole "it's all about the money" ideology is what is keeping pool in the realm of two-bit hustlers rather than honorable professional athletes. Clearly, colluding is cheating. We're not talking about a 2-way moral safety here, we're talking about intentionally leaving an easy shot for one opponent in order to eliminate someone else.
It's supposed to be about the sport of *pool* and not about doing whatever it takes to score some cash. 20k, or whatever it was for first, is peanuts compared to the amount of money in legitimate, organized, professional sports. Instead of robbing each other at every opportunity, show a little honor, and a little longer-term perspective.
And to those who say "anyone" would have done the same, speak for yourself. I doubt that, say, Ralf Souquet or Johnny Archer would have done that. It's unfortunate that many in the pool community think this bottom-feeder behavior is natural and even appropriate.
Again, I won't indict Banks on this, since he played his heart out, and it's my understanding that the rack was over when Dennis broke down his cue.
NYC cue dude
Banned
ineedaspot said:
are u saying that johnny archer, ralf souquet and other top players are above doing "business" in major events (gambling matches)? That they won't make savers or whack up the money?
RG
That's The Way I Saw It
There was nothing illegal about McMinn passing the shot on the oneball back to Banks. Banks had made a valiant attempt and the cueball hit the point of the side pocket on the kick shot. When McMinn passed the shot back, Orcullo QUIT.
When Banks had no shot at the 8 ball and simply bunted the balls, the Finals had already been decided and No money changed hands altering the the Finals Payout. As a matter of fact, McMinn didn't even run the last three balls out, he simply swept them up table.
The Finals was a race to 21 for 1st Place money. The shot moving the 8 ball out was MOX NIX......
Doug
( all imo of course )
Edited to correct spelling.
.
There was nothing illegal about McMinn passing the shot on the oneball back to Banks. Banks had made a valiant attempt and the cueball hit the point of the side pocket on the kick shot. When McMinn passed the shot back, Orcullo QUIT.
When Banks had no shot at the 8 ball and simply bunted the balls, the Finals had already been decided and No money changed hands altering the the Finals Payout. As a matter of fact, McMinn didn't even run the last three balls out, he simply swept them up table.
The Finals was a race to 21 for 1st Place money. The shot moving the 8 ball out was MOX NIX......
Doug
( all imo of course )
Edited to correct spelling.
.
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pokercartel1605 said:
16K for 2nd, 11K for 3rd.
KY BOY said:
How do you think Jesse would like playing a Race To 21 against one of these two Godzillas?
NYC cue dude said:
I may be wrong, but I understand that Ralf doesn't gamble. In any case, I don't think that either of them would have layed up on the 8 like that. I don't consider a saver or chopping to be in the same category. Like I said, it appears that the rack was officially over by then, so probably Banks didn't do it either.
I would be surprised if Archer or Souquet would do something so blatantly dishonest. I also don't think either of those guys would, say, dump on their backer, bet against themselves and throw a match in a tourney, etc.
Not that I would know, I'm just going by the professionalism which which they carry themselves. Again, I may be wrong, and if so please correct me. Sadly, I don't think all top pros have the integrity of Johnny or Ralf, but I might be wrong about this also.
I don't think any of this stuff about the "stigma" attached to Pool, has any bearing on securing sponsorship. Actaully Pool's image is much better today than it was 20 years ago. All the upscale poolrooms and seeing Pool in TV Ads and print Ads has done a lot to change the image.
If a prospective sponsor saw a possibility of reaching a larger share of their target audience through a Pool production (televised or otherwise), they would be interested. There is a long list of major sponsors whose Ads appear on the Asian broadcast of the WPC. All they know is that millions of people are watching.
If the ratings were higher on ESPN, more companies woiuld be interested in Pool shows. It's kind of a "Catch 22". Bottom line, what I have been saying for years is they have to improve the quality of this programming, show unedited matches (preferably full length) and put it on in a timely manner. Like how about same day coverage of a major pool tournament! Wouldn't that be something! How many people would watch the U.S. Open if you could see the Semis and Finals on the same day as it is played. LIVE!!!!!!
You know, treat Pool like a major sport, not like it's a Checkers tournament.
I have always said the audience is out there waiting for good shows. ESPN just hasn't given it to them yet. And probably never will. Notice when the Travel Channel starting getting big audiences for the World Poker Tour, suddenly ESPN woke up and began to telelvise multiple events from the WSOP and other "Circuit" events. DUH!
Just let Justin and Chad start to bring in 100,000 viewers every day to an event they are covering and watch the landscape change. All I got to say is "GO GET 'EM BIG BOYS!"
I must give credit to Rob Sykora of the Billiards Network. He has worked hard for years to do the same thing that The Action Report gang is doing now. He has had many technical problems with his telecasts but he persevered and got some good stuff on the air.
More credit to Justin and Chad for making their inaugural show come off as cleanly as it did. Of course they weren't asking anyone for money yet either. Hard to complain when you're getting a freebie.
If a prospective sponsor saw a possibility of reaching a larger share of their target audience through a Pool production (televised or otherwise), they would be interested. There is a long list of major sponsors whose Ads appear on the Asian broadcast of the WPC. All they know is that millions of people are watching.
If the ratings were higher on ESPN, more companies woiuld be interested in Pool shows. It's kind of a "Catch 22". Bottom line, what I have been saying for years is they have to improve the quality of this programming, show unedited matches (preferably full length) and put it on in a timely manner. Like how about same day coverage of a major pool tournament! Wouldn't that be something! How many people would watch the U.S. Open if you could see the Semis and Finals on the same day as it is played. LIVE!!!!!!
You know, treat Pool like a major sport, not like it's a Checkers tournament.
I have always said the audience is out there waiting for good shows. ESPN just hasn't given it to them yet. And probably never will. Notice when the Travel Channel starting getting big audiences for the World Poker Tour, suddenly ESPN woke up and began to telelvise multiple events from the WSOP and other "Circuit" events. DUH!
Just let Justin and Chad start to bring in 100,000 viewers every day to an event they are covering and watch the landscape change. All I got to say is "GO GET 'EM BIG BOYS!"
I must give credit to Rob Sykora of the Billiards Network. He has worked hard for years to do the same thing that The Action Report gang is doing now. He has had many technical problems with his telecasts but he persevered and got some good stuff on the air.
More credit to Justin and Chad for making their inaugural show come off as cleanly as it did. Of course they weren't asking anyone for money yet either. Hard to complain when you're getting a freebie.
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jay helfert said:
I agree with you Jay.
How many people who go to football games and watch it on television play football? How many people who watch the NBA or MLB, attend games, play the sport in an organized fassion?
The target audience of televised pool related events is primarily comprised of pool players. There are exceptions, but by in large, the people who watch or attend pool events are somewhat avid pool players. Until the game is portrayed in a way so that the target audience is increased to include general sports fans, there will always be problems with sponsorships.
Imagine this scenario in your head. You are at a pool tournament watching the action and strike up a conversation with someone next to you. He seems to know all of the players and can appreciate good play. After the tournament you ask him if he wants to hit some. He looks at you and tells you that he doesn't play pool. Would that response surprise you? Would you think it strange and wonder what he is doing there?
Kelly
Kelly_Guy said:
Good point Kelly. I watch Golf all the time on television (the British Open had a great finish yesterday), and I never play Golf.
The demographics of the European audience for Snooker is also quite varied with many Senior citizens (even old Grannies) tuning in religiously. They all have their favorite players to root for, just like I do at Golf.
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jay helfert said:
Jay,
I don't think the lack of sponsorship relates directly to the stigma of pool, but what you are saying goes hand in hand with the seedy image of pool. When I opened a pool hall in 2000 it was basically an upscale sports bar with 12 pool tables, a bar, dance floor, tv's and good food. The way I expained it to people that had not been there was "Appleby's with pool tables". When we went to get our pouring liscense, there were over 100 elderly citizens there basically chastizing us for opening a bar in this small town that would be home to fights and rif raff. We argued that every one of them had been to Appleby's, Outback, TGIF, etc.. and our place was no different and we would even treat them to a meal if they would come and see for themselves. Although, the city council agreed with us, we never saw one of the citizens that were there that night. They made up their minds that pool tables meant, dark, smokey, shady bar that would yield fights and send everybody out drunk and driving. I think that because this is the publics general perception of pool, they aren't willing to tune in to a sport on tv that most of them have never even played, in turn making it absurd for networks to care about having pool as serious programming.
corvette1340 said:
Unfortunately, that is often the case when opening a new room in many small towns. Notice that you said it was a group of elderly citizens who were protesting. I prefer to think that in general the public perception of the "sport" of pool and people who play for recreation is not a bad one today. Most people are not even remotely aware of the back room action and conniving that goes on in "big time" pool. It is so far away from their sphere of influence.
My own son-in-law is a very worldly guy in his mid 30's, who occasionally has gone out with friends for a game of pool, and a few suds. He knows I am heavily involved in the sport, but if I mention that there was a game for $20,000 his eyes bug out, like really? Yes, he has seen pool on TV and knows and likes Tang, but he is not aware of all the shenanigans that can go on behind the scenes, and frankly I don't think he cares. What he does know, is that it takes extraordinary skill to be a great pool player.
If a typical middle aged couple had a son or daughter who told them she was going out for an evening of Pool with some friends, I don't think they would be alarmed or overly concerned. The advent of upscale poolrooms and the meia blitz with pool related Ads has changed the environment for pool in America. Thus the huge increase in the home sale market for many years (slowing now I know).
I'm not so sure how your example translates to a television audience. If it means that most elderly people are not interested in Pool as sports programming, that really doesn't bother me. I still contend that there is a large audience out there who will watch and enjoy a good pool show, pool players and non players alike.
It seems to be working quite well in Asia and Europe already. The bigger question is WHY WON'T ANY AMERICAN TELEVISION NETWORKS BUY THE WPC FOR AIRING HERE? HELLO ESPN, FOX, etc. etc. etc!!! Maybe they want to keep Pool dumbed down in this country. I just don't know. I wish everyone on here would write to ESPN, FOX, TNT, HBO and whatever network they watch and ask them to air these shows which will be produced LIVE on Nov. 3-11, this year. Millions of people worldwide will be seeing them. Just not you in America. Something is very wrong here!
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In one ring game I played in, the rule was that the shot had to be passed clear around the ring for it to get back to the original fouler. That cuts down on the hard feelings and possible sharp practices.td873 said:
I believe the reason ESPN and network tv has not seen the market potential is mindset. Look at how they have dumbed down network tv in general with junk sports, mindless tv shows, etc. There are no independent thinkers, only group-think in board rooms. It will be up to independent pioneers like ActionReport and AzBilliards to develop the market.
I think it was Jay who mentioned the power of numbers on a website. That's very true and as soon as the site traffic on AR gets up there, the ad dollars will be there. It's inevitable, since site hits are what drives the inet. ad buck. When it's big enough, then you'll see ESPN open their check book for a buy out or contract. As long as ESPN doesn't have any control, they can't screw it up. Ha
I think it was Jay who mentioned the power of numbers on a website. That's very true and as soon as the site traffic on AR gets up there, the ad dollars will be there. It's inevitable, since site hits are what drives the inet. ad buck. When it's big enough, then you'll see ESPN open their check book for a buy out or contract. As long as ESPN doesn't have any control, they can't screw it up. Ha