Ivor-X ferrules

[((VH))]

That's a good question. I assumed that Jackson was the primary cuemaker with the other 2 guys to assist, but never asked him that question.

I'll drop him a note and let you know what he comes back with.

Thanks Jaz.
From the looks of it, Jack doesn't look like a cuemaker to me. Nothing to it though, but he seems Chinese... looks like a rich businessman. I think those two guys are his main men. Never know though, JMO.

Would you feel any different if he wasn't the one really making your cue?

 

[jaz]

Thanks Jaz.
From the looks of it, Jack doesn't look like a cuemaker to me. Nothing to it though, but he seems Chinese... looks like a rich businessman. I think those two guys are his main men. Never know though, JMO.

Would you feel any different if he wasn't the one really making your cue?

/SMARTASS=ON/ Ok, I'll bite what does a cuemaker look like? /SMARTASS=OFF/

As for would I feel different. Probably not too terribly different. I did know before hand that he had the assistants (assumption) and thought that they would be doing some of the work. If they we're to do the primary work, I would have the expectation that the processes, quality, tolerances and overall workmanship would be overseen and be measured to Viattorre's standards.

I would feel the same way if I was to order a Southwest and to meet their ever increasing demand they brought in some experienced personnel to perform additional work, not with those folks own thoughts and concepts, but with the same processes and to the same specifications Southwest uses. I do not think that this would diminish the quality or value.

Having said all of that, I also believe that there does come a point where you can become too large and run a very real risk of jeopardizing the quality standards that a company strives for. Once you reach a certain point, an individual's ability to oversee too large a quantity of work will result in defects slipping through and differences from cue to cue. Once that point is reached, you're a production cue maker and had better retool your business to move into that realm.

I don't think that Jack is at that point, I know his waiting list is growing everyday. When I originally contacted him about my cue, the wait was ~4 months. Once we actually finalized the specs, the wait had jumped to almost 6 months. This occurred over a 2 week period.

One final thought... I may be completely full of crap on this as I am not a cue maker....just my $.02

 

[((VH))]

Ey Jaz what I was asking is if Jack is really a cuemaker.
From what I read on their site, the business started with that 3 men set up so expansion wasn't a necessity at that moment.

Southwest is a different story.

I may be wrong but it apperars that Jack is the one who owns the business, the equipment and finances. The two guys (actual cuemakers) work for him to make the cues. JMHO

Nothing wrong with it though...

 

[jaz]

Thanks Jaz.
From the looks of it, Jack doesn't look like a cuemaker to me. Nothing to it though, but he seems Chinese... looks like a rich businessman. I think those two guys are his main men. Never know though, JMO.

Would you feel any different if he wasn't the one really making your cue?

VH,

Here's the skinny on Viattorre from Jackson --

"My partners got more than a decade of experience in their hands making cues. When we joined together though they have no experience at all with lathe machines. So in the beginning i taught them how to use the lathe and was almost the only one working on the lathe. I'm more of the machine man Nowadays ourt work is seperated like the following , one works on the lathes ( i got 2 ), the other does the inlays and I do the painting and finishing. I can't do inlays though . That is why I called us a team it is really a group effort and we are proud of that "

I'm going to try and get him to come to AZ and hang out for a bit. He's a great guy and I think he'd fit in well here.

btw... sorry about the rant in the previous post...

regards,
jaz

Reagards,
JZ

 

[LRockwell]

Jack brought modern cuemaking techniques and machinery like what is used in the US. Like Jaz mentions Jack and the other guys do different tasks as part of the overall team effort. So yeah, Jack does actually work on the cues.

 

[((VH))]

That was clarity all right...
But still Jack ain't the cuemaker as I said in previous post. Mentioning that the two guys had 10 years experience making cues indicates that. Doing the painting and finishing doesn't make him a cuemaker though. It's a totally different thing. He could be painting something else and I bet he won't be painting cues if nobody made 'em for him.

For him to bring in the machineries means that he is the main financier for Viattorre and owns the business. His experience in running a lathe could be from a machinist point of view. The two guys work for him to make cues and inlays. They probabaly done cue before on a wood lathe.

Nothing wrong with their set up. I just find it unacceptable reffering to him as a cuemaker. The only thing though that would be against that is the cues he sells is dependent on the skills of his workers, not his own hands.

Who knows what if those guys decide to leave or something else happens? Then where would Viattorre be? Then Jack would probably hire a new set of workers....
Just my 2 cents worth of HO

 

[cueman]

Let us not become too critical. Jack said he was the one who ran the lathe at first and taught the other guy and now does finishing. That is a cuemaker. He admitted he does not do inlay work. That only means he does not build fancy cues all by himself. Many many top cuemakers including Balabushka used point blanks made by someone else. They were still cuemakers. Some make their own screws, but most don't. But those who don't are still cuemakers. Let's not start the whole "who made what" argument that some other Filipino cuemakers had going all over again. They called a truce so let's not start another one. Who really cares who made what? Not Me!
Here is what I see as utmost importance. What is the finished product that is laid in the customers hand like. If it is good quality, great. If not then eventually it will have to improve or it will not sell. We have seen several great reviews of his cues on this forum and if he is smart enough to admit what he cannot do as well as his helper, then let the helper go after it.
My son is learning to scrimshaw and you can bet when he perfects his skill at it that you will see his work on top of my ivory inlays. And I will be proud to show it to people and say my son or helper did it. Bringing in good help is not a crime that lessons a cuemaker, it enhances his cues and that is good for the customer.
Hope I am not making anyone mad, but we need to take the high road on these forums and ask questions and get answers and learn from and help each other. Not put down or bicker or pick fights. On our members only forum for the ICA www.internationalcuemakers.com we will lock a member out if he starts being rude or putting down other peoples work, even if they are not members. So far all posts have been good and I do hope it stays that way.
That is my 2 cents worth. By the way I think his cues look nice also as I visited his site and I commend him for hiring a good inlay man to help him. Well make that 3 cents.
God Bless and Happy Cue Building,
Chris

 

[LRockwell]

Let us not become too critical. Jack said he was the one who ran the lathe at first and taught the other guy and now does finishing. That is a cuemaker. He admitted he does not do inlay work. That only means he does not build fancy cues all by himself. Many many top cuemakers including Balabushka used point blanks made by someone else. They were still cuemakers. Some make their own screws, but most don't. But those who don't are still cuemakers. Let's not start the whole "who made what" argument that some other Filipino cuemakers had going all over again. They called a truce so let's not start another one. Who really cares who made what? Not Me!
Here is what I see as utmost importance. What is the finished product that is laid in the customers hand like. If it is good quality, great. If not then eventually it will have to improve or it will not sell. We have seen several great reviews of his cues on this forum and if he is smart enough to admit what he cannot do as well as his helper, then let the helper go after it.
My son is learning to scrimshaw and you can bet when he perfects his skill at it that you will see his work on top of my ivory inlays. And I will be proud to show it to people and say my son or helper did it. Bringing in good help is not a crime that lessons a cuemaker, it enhances his cues and that is good for the customer.
Hope I am not making anyone mad, but we need to take the high road on these forums and ask questions and get answers and learn from and help each other. Not put down or bicker or pick fights. On our members only forum for the ICA www.internationalcuemakers.com we will lock a member out if he starts being rude or putting down other peoples work, even if they are not members. So far all posts have been good and I do hope it stays that way.
That is my 2 cents worth. By the way I think his cues look nice also as I visited his site and I commend him for hiring a good inlay man to help him. Well make that 3 cents.
God Bless and Happy Cue Building,
Chris

Very well said Mr. Hightower. Let us not forget about Southwest. When they lost their inlay guy, they still made cues. I also see the previous replies as Jack works on all the other parts of the cues except the inlays. Who knows, maybe he'll start doing inlays in the future.

 

[((VH))]

Chris,

No offense meant. Just want to clarify things.
Just based it on what Jaz said that the two guys had 10 years prior to Viattorre building cues. They just didn't know how to work on an engine lathe.

IMO, having knowledge on working on a lathe doesn't make you a cuemaker. Besides the lathe wasn't designed for building cues right? Having knowledge on machine works great advantage. I bet those guys would turn out a cue just using a wood lathe and hand held cutting tools.

It goes down to what defines a cuemaker. First, he should be able and should have built cues. In my book that counts. Would you consider someone who just does inlay work a cuemaker? I don't think so. Inlays are put on some other things other than cues.. Painting and finishing is the same thing.

Now if you ask me who is the cuemaker in their company, just that one guy he mentioned who build em.

Maybe I'm wrong here but the way I see things, you just can't bestow anyone with the cuemaker tag. I know a recent seller on ebay who has his name on his cues but he doesn't make cues. He has cues made for him and sells it on ebay with his name on it. He could talk cues and knows the stuff but he ain't and can't make em.

I think we should give credit where credit is due... whoever is that guy who builds cues and does inlays for viattorre deserves credit. Whatever their names are.

 

[bobroberts]

Viattorre

I have ordered a cue from Jackson and IMHO he definitly is a cuemaker.When you talk with him he knows what he is talking about and make suggestions based upon the feedback from the client.
I believe certain people in the forum are talking semantics and are just trying to get an arousal.

 

[((VH))]

If indeed Jackson actually knows and "builds" his own cues then I apologize for the above thread.

Just hard to reconcile the fact that he said he only does the painting and finishing, and has two men with 10 years of experience in making cues. People who know what a good wood is and knows how a cue is made but don't actually make or build cues is not a cuemaker IMHO. I told you about a seller I know who could talk about it and what wood is good, how it hits etc. but don't make cues. He has it built for him but puts his name on it. That ain't a cuemaker.

The cuemaker tag should be reserved to those who actually build their own cues, not just sanding, painting or putting on a tip... one who builds cues from barewood to the complete cuebuilding process.

Again I apologize if you guys say so. If he does build them, I don't see any problem labelling him a cuemaker...

 

[cueman]

I would like to clarify something so as not to be taken wrong. Most large Cue Manufacturers are also cuemakers. Once you get large enough to no longer be a one man shop you hire help to do some parts of your cue building and you concentrate on one or two aspects of cuebuilding or if you get busy enough you concentrate on running the business while your helpers build the cues. All this is just a natural progression as a business grows. If he at one time built the cues from start to finish he is a cuemaker in my book even if he is just supervising now. My son has been helping me on my cues since the cues on a lathe were about eye level to him. He built his first cue at 9 years old. I had to hold his hand while he ran the wrap. He is now 20 and does more and more stuff to the cues, but we are both Cuemakers. If he almost completely takes that part of the business over some day I would still be a cuemaker. Being less active doesn't take it away from you, just as not hitting many balls does not stop you from being a pool player. Yes you can become rusty, even inactive, but still a pool player and still a cuemaker.

 

[bandido]

I would like to clarify something so as not to be taken wrong. Most large Cue Manufacturers are also cuemakers. Once you get large enough to no longer be a one man shop you hire help to do some parts of your cue building and you concentrate on one or two aspects of cuebuilding or if you get busy enough you concentrate on running the business while your helpers build the cues. All this is just a natural progression as a business grows. If he at one time built the cues from start to finish he is a cuemaker in my book even if he is just supervising now. My son has been helping me on my cues since the cues on a lathe were about eye level to him. He built his first cue at 9 years old. I had to hold his hand while he ran the wrap. He is now 20 and does more and more stuff to the cues, but we are both Cuemakers. If he almost completely takes that part of the business over some day I would still be a cuemaker. Being less active doesn't take it away from you, just as not hitting many balls does not stop you from being a pool player. Yes you can become rusty, even inactive, but still a pool player and still a cuemaker.

This should be the answer that you're looking for ((VH)). Where are you located right now ((VH))? Somehow you know too many things about the cue industry in the Philippines and the United States. Knowledge that is kind of rare for a person located here in the Philippines to know about the US cue industry and vice-versa. I sort of catch on since I'm a US National that's living here in the Philippines right now. I've been in cuemaking since 1986, started in SoCal, and that's why I have privy info about the going-ons in the US and Philippines cue industry. You must be a Filipino in the US or an American in the Philippines.

 

[((VH))]

I would like to clarify something so as not to be taken wrong. Most large Cue Manufacturers are also cuemakers. Once you get large enough to no longer be a one man shop you hire help to do some parts of your cue building and you concentrate on one or two aspects of cuebuilding or if you get busy enough you concentrate on running the business while your helpers build the cues.

That's crystal to me Chris. Normal for a one man shop to progress into such when the demand for his cues increase and to meet this, he has to resort to hire help as you mentioned. Nothing against that my friend.

Like I said I apologize in my previous post. If indeed Jackson does and did build cues when Viattorre started and he just didn't put up the business and hire people to make cues for him then I stand corrected.

If he at one time built the cues from start to finish he is a cuemaker in my book even if he is just supervising now.

This is what I meant Chris. I believe this criterion should be satisfied. I totally agree with this.

 

[bandido]

That's crystal to me Chris. Normal for a one man shop to progress into such when the demand for his cues increase and to meet this, he has to resort to hire help as you mentioned. Nothing against that my friend.

Like I said I apologize in my previous post. If indeed Jackson does and did build cues when Viattorre started and he just didn't put up the business and hire people to make cues for him then I stand corrected.



This is what I meant Chris. I believe this criterion should be satisfied. I totally agree with this.

And I agree with you and Chris on this as this is the normal progression in the craft.
Edwin Reyes

 

[((VH))]

This should be the answer that you're looking for ((VH)). Where are you located right now ((VH))? Somehow you know too many things about the cue industry in the Philippines and the United States. Knowledge that is kind of rare for a person located here in the Philippines to know about the US cue industry and vice-versa. I sort of catch on since I'm a US National that's living here in the Philippines right now. I've been in cuemaking since 1986, started in SoCal, and that's why I have privy info about the going-ons in the US and Philippines cue industry. You must be a Filipino in the US or an American in the Philippines.

I don't know such Bandido. If you review the thread you'll see how it progressed. I just checked on Jacks site and gave my opinions about it. The question just arose about tagging someone a cuemaker as such.

I just believe "cuemaker" is such a highly regarded title in this industry and to be labelled as such one has to be qualified the way cue repairmen are cue repairmen. not CM's.

I believe both you and I adhere to the same principles.

 

[bandido]

I don't know such Bandido. If you review the thread you'll see how it progressed. I just checked on Jacks site and gave my opinions about it. The question just arose about tagging someone a cuemaker as such.

I just believe "cuemaker" is such a highly regarded title in this industry and to be labelled as such one has to be qualified the way cue repairmen are cue repairmen. not CM's.

I believe both you and I adhere to the same principles.

I agree and you do have every right to question.
Edwin Reyes

 

[mewantpool]

If indeed Jackson actually knows and "builds" his own cues then I apologize for the above thread.

Just hard to reconcile the fact that he said he only does the painting and finishing, and has two men with 10 years of experience in making cues. People who know what a good wood is and knows how a cue is made but don't actually make or build cues is not a cuemaker IMHO. I told you about a seller I know who could talk about it and what wood is good, how it hits etc. but don't make cues. He has it built for him but puts his name on it. That ain't a cuemaker.

The cuemaker tag should be reserved to those who actually build their own cues, not just sanding, painting or putting on a tip... one who builds cues from barewood to the complete cuebuilding process.

Again I apologize if you guys say so. If he does build them, I don't see any problem labelling him a cuemaker...

Why does it matter who makes what? Just because no one person does all the different parts of the cue does not mean that they cannot be considered as cuemakers. Plenty of other cuemakers employ help to build some parts of the cue. Bandido has helpers who do most of the work so does that mean that bandido is not a cuemaker? I don't think so. Bandido is one of the best cuemakers in the world today. He works closely with his helpers and instructs them exactly what needs to be done. That's a real cuemaker to me.

A cuemaker is like an engineer. He does the design and he knows what type of materials to use to make things work but he doesn't necessarily have to be the one to build it. On the other hand, the builders doesn't necessarily need to know why and how the materials work. Would you consider the builders to be more deserving to be called a cuemaker than the person who actually designed and knows how everything works?

 

[Cletus]

When I read those replies, Jack didn't say anything about him not being one of the guys who builds cues or doesn't know how to build a cue. He just has another guy doing inlaying. As Chris said, you have to concentrate on one or two parts of the cuemaking process when you have a lot of business. That's making more efficient use of personel and machinery.

 

[bandido]

Why does it matter who makes what? Just because no one person does all the different parts of the cue does not mean that they cannot be considered as cuemakers.

I guess this is where ((VH))'s contention is. Really understanding what they're saying, they do have a valid point and is what the description of a cuemaker is.

If he at one time built the cues from start to finish he is a cuemaker in my book even if he is just supervising now.

This is what I meant Chris. I believe this criterion should be satisfied. I totally agree with this.Plenty of other cuemakers employ help to build some parts of the cue.

Bandido has helpers who do most of the work so does that mean that bandido is not a cuemaker? I don't think so. Bandido is one of the best cuemakers in the world today. He works closely with his helpers and instructs them exactly what needs to be done. That's a real cuemaker to me.

A cuemaker is like an engineer. He does the design and he knows what type of materials to use to make things work but he doesn't necessarily have to be the one to build it. On the other hand, the builders doesn't necessarily need to know why and how the materials work. Would you consider the builders to be more deserving to be called a cuemaker than the person who actually designed and knows how everything works?

You do make it sound real simple and I guess that's where the problem is. Judging by your post, you are somewhat familiar with my operation but seem to be lumping everything all together. I'm sure that you are aware that aside from my signature line(ER cues), I also have DocHolliday and Tirador brands. My involvement in these brands are minimal to very minimal and people can really tell the big difference in playability, choice of materials, workmanship and design. In short, "overall quality". Try and understand what Chris and ((VH)) wrote without a target entity but in general.

I would like to clarify something so as not to be taken wrong. Most large Cue Manufacturers are also cuemakers. Once you get large enough to no longer be a one man shop you hire help to do some parts of your cue building and you concentrate on one or two aspects of cuebuilding or if you get busy enough you concentrate on running the business while your helpers build the cues.

That's crystal to me Chris. Normal for a one man shop to progress into such when the demand for his cues increase and to meet this, he has to resort to hire help as you mentioned. Nothing against that my friend.

I do agree with this and am sure, hearing this sentiment through all these years 1986-present, that those who started crafting cues as one-man operations share this views. There are just some things that aren't learned until you've done it yourself for some time. In the craft it's called "paying the dues".
Edwin Reyes