Ivor-X ferrules

[cueman]

This happens a lot more than you think. But you are right that you don't hear about it much. David Kersenbrock has been hire by alot of cuemakers to help them out since leaving South West. I have brought one in for a while years ago. Donald Bludworth works for Southeast cues now. Guylassy hired a well trained cuemaker that worked with Jerico. Bert Schrager's list of helpers through the years would look like a who's who list of top smaller cuemakers. These are just a few examples that come to my mind right off.
Chris
www.internationalcuemakers.com

I know this last post makes no sense but I was responding to a quote by Canadian and when it pulled up my reply his post was somehow deleted. He was asking why trained cuemakers don't join together and I was showing him examples of them doing so

 

[((VH))]

I think you're getting everything all mixed up again (one of ((VH))'s characteristic that I noticed). You talk about aspect of the building process then jump into building the whole cue. My view on that, and it's how custom cue shops progress in the industry, is that the owner is the main cuemaker by all descriptions given above by you, me, CC and cueman. So, no matter if any worker moves on the quality and operation isn't hampered. This I think is what happened to SW, Jerry probably is the only one who made the parts choices.

I also asked you a question awhile back and you still haven't answered. Where are you located and are you a cuemaker?
Edwin Reyes

I don't see any mix up. What I meant was "those who start out the business in cuemaking who are not CM's but hire people to make cues for 'em and get involved in one small way or another in the cuebuilding process". They do all the talking and get the credit. They are usually those peeps who got the finances to start it up as a business. My only regret though is whoever cuemaker works for em remains incognito.

Yes I do repair and make cues part time and slowly soon gonna be fulltime here in the US. Had an itch to do it the past few years.Just didn't have the time but I'm keeping abreast of things. I'm still payin' my dues

 

[Canadian cue]

partnerships

My appologies cueman after posting I realised I was repeating some of what ((VH)) was saying . The point I was making was ,what's wrong with a group of cuemakers getting together to make cues but to share equally in the credit.
Then if they recognized each others talents ,kept ther ego's in check it would be all good. If one partner were to leave ,then the company would disolve. I have not seen much of this in this industry.

 

[((VH))]

My appologies cueman after posting I realised I was repeating some of what ((VH)) was saying . The point I was making was ,what's wrong with a group of cuemakers getting together to make cues but to share equally in the credit.
Then if they recognized each others talents ,kept ther ego's in check it would be all good. If one partner were to leave ,then the company would disolve. I have not seen much of this in this industry.

CC, never said anything bad about cuemakers getting together. I think it's good.

I've been misinterpreted in my previous posts but then again what this is all about is when do you call someone a cuemaker. This has been answered by Bandido, CC, Chris and me.

You just can't name someone a CM just because he's involved in the business and never built a cue, a functional decent cue. Now if that person tried to build a cue or two and it hit like crap and he cant take the grinding process of building it... and then got someone to build it for him... still not a cuemaker to me. Takes more than painting, inlays and a lot of stuff. Those of us who are still finding our nitch know the trials that come our way... lots of questions needed to be answered. But the pleasure we get is worth more than the money we spend

 

[Joseph Cues]

I don't see any mix up. What I meant was "those who start out the business in cuemaking who are not CM's but hire people to make cues for 'em and get involved in one small way or another in the cuebuilding process". They do all the talking and get the credit. They are usually those peeps who got the finances to start it up as a business. My only regret though is whoever cuemaker works for em remains incognito.

True that. That is low. Worse, they prolly steal their former workers' ideas and work.

Yes I do repair and make cues part time and slowly soon gonna be fulltime here in the US. Had an itch to do it the past few years.Just didn't have the time but I'm keeping abreast of things. I'm still payin' my dues

Whereabouts are you VH? Maybe some of the peeps here can get their cues tuned-up by you.

 

[((VH))]

True that. That is low. Worse, they prolly steal their former workers' ideas and work.

Whereabouts are you VH? Maybe some of the peeps here can get their cues tuned-up by you.

Well that crap happens Joseph. But the thing is, if they knwo how to build 'em

Too far east, Noblesville... besides a lot of CM here can do a better job. Still on that stage where you feel you'll ruin the cue When I do settle down on things yes I would.

 

[Joseph Cues]

Well that crap happens Joseph. But the thing is, if they knwo how to build 'em

Too far east, Noblesville... besides a lot of CM here can do a better job. Still on that stage where you feel you'll ruin the cue When I do settle down on things yes I would.

I was thinking of simple jobs.
You know like inlaying cues with tiffany diamond ivory bordered with ebony and silver.
Noblesville? Must be really close to Hickville.

 

[mewantpool]

Regardless of how you define a 'cuemaker' what matters is the final product. Whether the cue is done by one person alone or a group of individuals, still what matters is the quality of the product after it was built.

What bugs me is how some veteran cuemakers presume that newer cuemakers cannot build the same quality cues like they do. Cue building is an evolutionary process and techniques can be learned easily by people who has the talent. I have been playing pool for 38 years and I can get beat by talented players who has been playing less than 10 years. My point? Experience doesn't always beat natural talent.

So before some of you veteran cuemakers put down up and coming cuemakers every chance you get try to get an objective opinion first and perhaps try one of their cues. Then you decide and be open to the possibility that they might be better than you are.

 

[WilleeCue]

Cue building is an evolutionary process and techniques can be learned easily by people who has the talent.

Dont ever go to RSB newsgroup and say something like that.
I did and what followed was a four year putdown. (grin)

I like the idea that a pool cue should be judged on its merits not its marketing.
I have not made that perfect cue yet and prolly never will.
However, there are a lot of poeple that do see the quality and value that some of the new "unknown" cuemakers are offering.

A big name cuemaker and almost pure perfection is exactly what some are looking for in a cue and are willing to pay the price. There are others that are looking for a good cue that will fit their budget and that is where I think most of the the new cuemakers fit into the grand sceme of things. They offer a good product at a fair value to a local market.

 

[Jon]

Dont ever go to RSB newsgroup and say something like that.
I did and what followed was a four year putdown. (grin)

I like the idea that a pool cue should be judged on its merits not its marketing.
I have not made that perfect cue yet and prolly never will.
However, there are a lot of poeple that do see the quality and value that some of the new "unknown" cuemakers are offering.

A big name cuemaker and almost pure perfection is exactly what some are looking for in a cue and are willing to pay the price. There are others that are looking for a good cue that will fit their budget and that is where I think most of the the new cuemakers fit into the grand sceme of things. They offer a good product at a fair value to a local market.

Great post William, many good points.

Thanks,

Jon

 

[Buddha Jones]

Was away for a while, only to return and see that this post hasn't died down and I am glad! So I post to you this question. CM's that run their shops as individuals, do all the work them selves, how can they, or is it even fair to compare their works from shops that have several people in the organization such as Viattorre - Jack and a couple other guys, Samsara - Dave Doucette and Jim Stadum, South East - Can't remember his name, AE - Bruce Kuhn and Jeff Fugal , Jacoby - Dave and Brandon Jacoby.
AE, Samsara and Viattorre don't have a catalog or product lines, they take custom orders and build on an as needed basis. Jacoby and South East do, but they also do custom orders.
So what catagory do they fit under?

 

[bobroberts]

cue makers

I couldn't care less if the guy who designs the cue never touches it, except to inspect it before it is shipped.The designer is the cuemaker.The design team at Ford or G.M. you know never get their hands dirty but they are the brains behind the creation.This whole discussion comes from one person whos opinion is that you have to do it all by yourself to be a cuemaker.Does that mean a cue maker can't even use machines.Maybe he just takes a piece of wood and whittles a cue,I guess that would fit into how he looks at it.

 

[Metzger]

We call that one person who started this whole discussion a troll where we come from.

This whole discussion comes from one person whos opinion is that you have to do it all by yourself to be a cuemaker.Does that mean a cue maker can't even use machines.Maybe he just takes a piece of wood and whittles a cue,I guess that would fit into how he looks at it.

 

[buddha162]

Just to keep things in perspective at least in my own, this is how I define a cuemaker...

he could & does build & has built cues- This is what I believe any one referred to as a cuemaker should possess. This inludes knowledge in every aspect of cuebuilding, from wood selection to pins to construcion techniques and applies this knowledge hands on in building his line of cues. Not just inlaying, putting wraps, pins or whatever.

Cuemaking is a craft where all this knowledge is a applied. In other words, it's wood working or woodcraft. It's a skill, learned and applied.

Doing a taper manually is a skill, even sharpening your cutting bits. Lots of skills required. Gluing veneers is tricky, requires skill. Cutting the tenon or putting on the joint pin and the insert requires skill. Too many to mention...

If just by designing cues would qualify one as a cuemaker, then cuemakers would be dime a dozen. Knowledge about what wood's good, combinations, cue parts etc. won't stand alone. It's one of the essentials.

IMO it's a very complex matter and in which as a whole makes one a cuemaker.

If this is not so, then all we have is just a bunch of cue assemblers, cue painters. That's why we have cue repairmen, inlay men who are also involved in cues but they are labeled as such and they aren't cuemakers.

I maybe wrong, but this what defines a cuemaker to me. JMHO

I included VH's entire post here because A.) I agree with everything he says, and B.) his definition of a cuemaker is being distorted by the last two posters.

-Roger

 

[Metzger]

So what you're implying here is that only his opinion counts and we can't have our own opinions.

 

[buddha162]

No, that's not what I'm implying.

If someone said, "I disagree with VH for this this and that reason," you would've expressed an opinion. But bobroberts said, "VH said this this and that and I think it's retarded," when VH said no such thing.

There's a difference between voicing a dissenting opinion (which is welcome as long as it makes some logical sense), and what bobroberts did (distortion). You merely called VH a troll, which I consider a baseless accusation, but that's just my opinion =)

-Roger

 

[bandido]

Everybody has an opinion and they are correct from their viewpoint. What was being discussed, from the first appearance of a post that diverted this thread, was definition for the "head honcho" of a cue shop.

When I take in an assistant the very first thing that I tell him is to forget everything that he previously learned. I teach him (show & tell) how I do the jobs that I delegate.
The way I want it done or he will have a very short stint with me.

Some newbie cuemakers, though they may turn out excellent products, still don't have the luxury of knowing if their product is going to pass the test of time. Some have had the luxury of being under the wings of prominent cuemakers and have built a strong foundation because of this. The internet is by no means a substitute for hands on experience, anybody can get information but wouldn't know how to execute the knowledge if they don't have previous experince on related processes.

To me, I have to have the knowledge and broaden it. I have to know how to execute in order to teach and improve on current systems. This is all so important because in the end, when the cue leaves the shop even when everybody has moved on, I, and only I am expected to stand behind my product.
Edwin Reyes

 

[((VH))]

I couldn't care less if the guy who designs the cue never touches it, except to inspect it before it is shipped.The designer is the cuemaker.The design team at Ford or G.M. you know never get their hands dirty but they are the brains behind the creation.This whole discussion comes from one person whos opinion is that you have to do it all by yourself to be a cuemaker.Does that mean a cue maker can't even use machines.Maybe he just takes a piece of wood and whittles a cue,I guess that would fit into how he looks at it.

I respect your opinion on that. Something like, when you talk about design, say a person who has a knack for sketching out great designs and has the designs built into a cue exactly the way he designed and that person's also a cuemaker??? Or in your post he is the cuemaker?

When you talk about cuemaking and cuemakers, you have to define what makes 'em one. Otherwise, even a guy who just assists in handing abrasive paper when a CM's doing finishing work could also be called a cuemaker.

Even someone who does only painting can't be called a CM. I could get a good automotive paint man to do the job for finishing but that don't make him one CM.

My stand from the very start is about calling or naming one a cuemaker, which I believe should be done within the bounds of what a cuemaker really is. Some could be involved in the business side of things and they're what I call businessmen not cuemakers. They could be the ones you're talking to in having your cue made and they are knowledgable about cues... they could tell what prolly hit good or what wood combo would look great or what's the best this and that... a true cuemaker doesn't only know what he's talkin' about... he is, has, did and done it.

Nothing against a group effort, neither was I talking about the end product or even a CM just has to work strictly by himself.

Does that mean a cue maker can't even use machines

I seriously doubt your comprehension of this thread based on this statement alone. JMO

 

[((VH))]

No, that's not what I'm implying.

If someone said, "I disagree with VH for this this and that reason," you would've expressed an opinion. But bobroberts said, "VH said this this and that and I think it's retarded," when VH said no such thing.

There's a difference between voicing a dissenting opinion (which is welcome as long as it makes some logical sense), and what bobroberts did (distortion). You merely called VH a troll, which I consider a baseless accusation, but that's just my opinion =)

-Roger

Thanks Roger.

I guess not all of us here have the same definition of the word. That is not a proble. To each his own as they say

 

[((VH))]

Everybody has an opinion and they are correct from their viewpoint. What was being discussed, from the first appearance of a post that diverted this thread, was definition for the "head honcho" of a cue shop.

To me, I have to have the knowledge and broaden it. I have to know how to execute in order to teach and improve on current systems. This is all so important because in the end, when the cue leaves the shop even when everybody has moved on, I, and only I am expected to stand behind my product.
Edwin Reyes

No doubt about it Bandido!
Even if you don't do hands-on work from this day on you'd still and will always be called a cuemaker. You build, built and continue to do so right?
Even if you have assistants doesn't devaluate your status as a true CM. If you could be the gauge on what a CM is here in this thread hopefully others would get a clear picture of things.