Japan Open pocket sizes, are they nuts?

[CreeDo]

Can't find any info on japan open 2013, where'd you find the video?
Found some stuff about previous years... here's a pic of the pockets in 2012 for reference.
Drop and pocket cut definitely make a difference. This might play like the bonus ball table.
Possibly once the ball hits a facing it's gone.

By the way, those who think tightening the pockets will result in more "strategic" matches
with interesting safety battles... that's not what happens.

Here's what happens: On a 4" pocketed table, the player tries to make tough shots because they're a pro.
On 99% of the tables they've ever played on, those shots are very makeable. They are still going to try to run out.

They're not going to suddenly start playing 10b like it's NOT a runout game anymore.
They don't see a 45 degree cut with 7 feet of distance and a wide open pocket and think
"Too tough on this table. I better duck". They try it anyway.

Then, they rattle the ball. Is there some cool strategy or entertainment value in that? No.
The opponent sinks the hanger their opponent just bobbled. Then they (probably) run out.
Awesome.

 

[hang-the-9]

Can't find any info on japan open 2013, where'd you find the video?
Found some stuff about previous years... here's a pic of the pockets in 2012 for reference.
Drop and pocket cut definitely make a difference. This might play like the bonus ball table.
Possibly once the ball hits a facing it's gone.

That looks a lot bigger than the pockets on the table I was looking at.

There is a link to the ustream site for the Japan tournament (called the Japan Masters, maybe the Open part messed up your searching) in the streaming section. http://www.ustream.tv/channel/第12回-masters-in-高井田ビリヤード

The recorded matches show that table.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

Drop and pocket cut definitely make a difference. This might play like the bonus ball table.

You beat me to the punch. Pocket-mouth is not the only determinant on how tough a pocket plays. What's more, in my humble opinion, expert-level players are most concerned that the pockets play predictably. The only thing that really sucks about tight pockets is when you hit a shot exactly like you wanted and the ball hangs-up. And, you really don't know how predictable a table will be until you actually play on it.

 

[CreeDo]

Wondering if this "masters" tournament is another name for the All-Japan tournament, which is different from the Japan Open? Or maybe it's a third unrelated tournament?

Anyway, I downloaded the vid and went through a few frames... it's definitely much tighter than the
table I screenshot, and two balls will not fit. Maybe not even in the side pockets. I saw a few balls
get rattled that left the shooter scratching his head. Having fast cloth helps, but this still looks tough.

 

[bigg7]

I check

I check this weekend with our local pro . I've been told he finished 4th in this event.

 

[Gunn_Slinger]

Pool has gone in many directions over the last 50 yrs. Up until the 80's, slower wool cloth, much less lively balls, and pockets over 4.5 in were what most pool rooms had. Some rooms would have 1-2 double shimmed tables, but most of the gambling was on the regular tables. 9 ball , banks, 14.1 , and 1 pocket were played on the regular tables, mostly, and it was liked by most players I met ( in 10 yrs at Bennies room, I saw very few matches played on the 1 double shimmed table, and that included every good and great player in the country, mostly. In the 80's, pool was made easier to play by using fast cloth (860, 760 simonis ), lively balls, texas express rules to speed up the game. Sometime in the 90's, the balls went from 5.5 oz to 6.0 oz ( dont know why ). Pool leagues flourished bringing in new players to a game much easier to play and faster to play. In the last 15 yrs, pool is , in some players eyes, "too easy ". So, the move to tighter and tighter pockets, rule changes to make the game harder, and finally, heavier cue balls to make it even harder.
So what has this done? The 'pros' have adapted to the changes well, as they should, and a lot of the players in local pool rooms play a little worse, mostly. So, when the pockets get to 3 in and the cue ball gets to 6.5 oz, most players will play even. Nobody will run out, nobody will even shoot at a bank ( they dont now on a diamond, just on gold crowns ), and the player who makes the 6 ball will most likely lose. Games will take longer and longer and pool will get boring and " boring-er '...lol. Safety play will be the main way to play pool.....what fun.
Good luck with tighter pockets. I will go back to wool cloth, 4 5/8 in pockets, 5.5 oz balls, and enjoy pool again...ohhh and pushout 9 ball...what a game.

 

[tommyceilings]

Stick to pool, you have no clue about what you are talking about with regards to Tennis. I mean seriously Pool, Martial Arts, Tennis, Golf, Secret ancient aiming systems, is there anything that you don't claim to be an expert on? Get's old.

As far as Hank Haney, you can keep him all you want. Plenty of other guys word I'd take before I'd listen to him.

Tommy

Actually they did do something about the serve....they made the tennis ball heavier.

If you watched Wimbledon this last year the players don't "serve and volley" anymore, they stay back and hit ground strokes. You use to see the grass at Center Court worn down around the net and a path coming in from the service line.....not anymore.

Too much advantage on the first shot definitely makes the games less appealing. They've also changed the rough on the PGA courses.....Hank Haney told me if they really want to take the advantage away from the long hitters they should take the rough OUT, not make it higher.....this way a drive hit poorly will travel clear out of play instead of getting caught (and saved) by the rough.

 

[Masayoshi]

That looks a lot bigger than the pockets on the table I was looking at.

There is a link to the ustream site for the Japan tournament (called the Japan Masters, maybe the Open part messed up your searching) in the streaming section. http://www.ustream.tv/channel/第12回-masters-in-高井田ビリヤード

The recorded matches show that table.

The masters is a national amateur tournament in Japan (one of 3 or 4 national amateur tournaments held yearly, 2 players from each area are selected to go). The Japan Open was a different tournament held in July and the All Japan is a professional only tournament held in November.

 

[BeiberLvr]

People like to compare golf and pool. Well all golf majors aren't played on the same course. They're all tough, but some are tougher than others.

Major open tournaments should be played on tough tables, and some tournaments should have slightly tougher tables. I would say any World event and the US Open should be played on 10' tables.

 

[TheNewSharkster]

I am in Vietnam on work and finally had a chance to shoot some pool. The equipment was good but really tough. The pocket size was SMALL

 

[Johnnyt]

Pool has gone in many directions over the last 50 yrs. Up until the 80's, slower wool cloth, much less lively balls, and pockets over 4.5 in were what most pool rooms had. Some rooms would have 1-2 double shimmed tables, but most of the gambling was on the regular tables. 9 ball , banks, 14.1 , and 1 pocket were played on the regular tables, mostly, and it was liked by most players I met ( in 10 yrs at Bennies room, I saw very few matches played on the 1 double shimmed table, and that included every good and great player in the country, mostly. In the 80's, pool was made easier to play by using fast cloth (860, 760 simonis ), lively balls, texas express rules to speed up the game. Sometime in the 90's, the balls went from 5.5 oz to 6.0 oz ( dont know why ). Pool leagues flourished bringing in new players to a game much easier to play and faster to play. In the last 15 yrs, pool is , in some players eyes, "too easy ". So, the move to tighter and tighter pockets, rule changes to make the game harder, and finally, heavier cue balls to make it even harder.
So what has this done? The 'pros' have adapted to the changes well, as they should, and a lot of the players in local pool rooms play a little worse, mostly. So, when the pockets get to 3 in and the cue ball gets to 6.5 oz, most players will play even. Nobody will run out, nobody will even shoot at a bank ( they dont now on a diamond, just on gold crowns ), and the player who makes the 6 ball will most likely lose. Games will take longer and longer and pool will get boring and " boring-er '...lol. Safety play will be the main way to play pool.....what fun.
Good luck with tighter pockets. I will go back to wool cloth, 4 5/8 in pockets, 5.5 oz balls, and enjoy pool again...ohhh and pushout 9 ball...what a game.

Good post and I agree. Johnnyt

 

[Pidge]

Don't think I've ever heard any player; snooker, pool, english 8 ball complain that the pockets were too small. Just doesn't happen. They may say a table played tough, but they'd never say that's why they played well or bad. I've heard countless amateurs complain about pocket size though.

They play on what ever is infront of them and if its tough for them its tougher for the next guy or girl.

Pro game should be made as tough as possible whilst still making it entertaining to watch live and on TV. Personally I think 4" pockets on a 10ft table will do that. The pros will learn to adapt quickly and it will be like watching them play on a 9ft table with 4.5" pockets.

 

[CreeDo]

Don't think I've ever heard any player; snooker, pool, english 8 ball complain that the pockets were too small. Just doesn't happen. They may say a table played tough, but they'd never say that's why they played well or bad. I've heard countless amateurs complain about pocket size though.

They play on what ever is infront of them and if its tough for them its tougher for the next guy or girl.

Pro game should be made as tough as possible whilst still making it entertaining to watch live and on TV. Personally I think 4" pockets on a 10ft table will do that. The pros will learn to adapt quickly and it will be like watching them play on a 9ft table with 4.5" pockets.

That's the popular myth, that you will "Adapt".
But there's a limit to how straight you can stroke and how accurately you can aim.
Basic statistics will show you that over the long run, larger table or smaller pocket
= more misses, lower runs in 14.1, smaller packages, etc.

The highest 14.1 run is lower on a 10 foot than it is on a 9 foot.
The highest run on a diamond is lower than on a 9ft gold crown.
Conversely, the 526 world record run on an 8 footer is higher than any record set on a 9 footer.
And there are claims of 20+ packs of 9 ball being run on a bar box, whereas on a 9 foot
it's something like 15.

Forget wishful thinking, some want to believe tight equipment can make players bear down
to superhuman levels of aim and play amazing. But look at cold hard stats.
Pros (and the rest of the world) flat out play worse on tougher equipment.
And they always will.

Also, some pros do complain about tight pockets, (usually the guy who lost...
see geno vs. bartram) but I suspect most of them don't want to look like a sissy.
That's part of the reason that tight pockets are no good... players will never ever admit
"this table is just too tough for me" and then adapt by playing a lot more safeties and passing
on the flyers. They shoot the tough shots because they're pros and they feel that's what's expected of them.
Then they rattle a ball and the other guy cleans up.

 

[hang-the-9]

I am in Vietnam on work and finally had a chance to shoot some pool. The equipment was good but really tough. The pocket size was SMALL

That's a good tough table from what I can see. The pockets look to be cut right but the size looks to be the smallest I'd want to play on. If that was in a regular pool room, I don't think any of the casual players in the US would have a chance to make balls in there, some of the bar tables the play on you can hit the rail half way up and the ball will roll into a pocket.

 

[Pidge]

That's the popular myth, that you will "Adapt".
But there's a limit to how straight you can stroke and how accurately you can aim.
Basic statistics will show you that over the long run, larger table or smaller pocket
= more misses, lower runs in 14.1, smaller packages, etc.

The highest 14.1 run is lower on a 10 foot than it is on a 9 foot.
The highest run on a diamond is lower than on a 9ft gold crown.
Conversely, the 526 world record run on an 8 footer is higher than any record set on a 9 footer.
And there are claims of 20+ packs of 9 ball being run on a bar box, whereas on a 9 foot
it's something like 15.

Forget wishful thinking, some want to believe tight equipment can make players bear down
to superhuman levels of aim and play amazing. But look at cold hard stats.
Pros (and the rest of the world) flat out play worse on tougher equipment.
And they always will.

Also, some pros do complain about tight pockets, (usually the guy who lost...
see geno vs. bartram) but I suspect most of them don't want to look like a sissy.
That's part of the reason that tight pockets are no good... players will never ever admit
"this table is just too tough for me" and then adapt by playing a lot more safeties and passing
on the flyers. They shoot the tough shots because they're pros and they feel that's what's expected of them.
Then they rattle a ball and the other guy cleans up.

A 4" opening for a 2 1/4" ball is not tight, not even close. its just more challenging. Tight pockets are on the pyramid tables, and yet I see guys running 8 balls on them. If pool wants to be taken seriously by non pool players then smaller pockets that don't let you hit the middle diamond and still go in is the way forward. I've shown videos and played snooker players that have never seen pool played videos of people hitting 1 or 2 diamonds on the long rail and the ball going straight in and they laugh and say are these guys for real?

People will ***** that it allows them to play position....get position in the first place and you won't have to cheat the pocket 2 diamonds up. Pool is in dyer state and making the game look respectable through tighter pockets, strict uniform code, a governing body and players that show respect to others and the game is the only way people will take it seriously.

 

[Ron Swanson]

A 4" opening for a 2 1/4" ball is not tight, not even close. its just more challenging. Tight pockets are on the pyramid tables, and yet I see guys running 8 balls on them. If pool wants to be taken seriously by non pool players then smaller pockets that don't let you hit the middle diamond and still go in is the way forward. I've shown videos and played snooker players that have never seen pool played videos of people hitting 1 or 2 diamonds on the long rail and the ball going straight in and they laugh and say are these guys for real?

People will ***** that it allows them to play position....get position in the first place and you won't have to cheat the pocket 2 diamonds up. Pool is in dyer state and making the game look respectable through tighter pockets, strict uniform code, a governing body and players that show respect to others and the game is the only way people will take it seriously.

There's a lot in that but speeding it up is priority number one. Watching men watching tables is a niche market to say the least. We simply don't live in that world any more.

Tighter pockets will also make it more of a spectacle for the viewer, with some back and forth between the players. Snooker becomes fantastic when both players hit the wall at the same time, with neither being able to land the knock-out blow. A few misses are good for the drama.

 

[Pidge]

There's a lot in that but speeding it up is priority number one. Watching men watching tables is a niche market to say the least. We simply don't live in that world any more.

Tighter pockets will also make it more of a spectacle for the viewer, with some back and forth between the players. Snooker becomes fantastic when both players hit the wall at the same time, with neither being able to land the knock-out blow. A few misses are good for the drama.

Yeah no body likes slow play. In 9 and 10b I think a 30sec shot clock is in order, something along the lines of the Mosconi Cup. That would require a ref IMO though, and that's also something I think every comp should have. Help keep players in check.

I enjoy watching snooker players making high breaks just as much as the next guy, but nothing quite gets me on the edge of my seat watching a nitty gritty battle of 10 breaks, then a safe until one knocks in a wonder pot and the crowd go insane. It may be a niche market for people to enjoy this too, but I can't speak for everyone so I put my view accross of what I enjoy playing and watching.

 

[Scaramouche]

A 2 1/4" pool ball going into a 4 1/2" pocket has a pocket twice the diameter of the ball.

A 2 1/4" pool ball going into a 4" packet has a pocket 1.777 times the diameter of the ball.

A 2 1/16" snooker ball going into a 3.333" pocket has a pocket 1.616 times the diameter of the ball.

A pool table would have to have a 3.636" pocket to be as difficult as a snooker table.

 

[Pidge]

A 2 1/4" pool ball going into a 4 1/2" pocket has a pocket twice the diameter of the ball.

A 2 1/4" pool ball going into a 4" packet has a pocket 1.777 times the diameter of the ball.

A 2 1/16" snooker ball going into a 3.333" pocket has a pocket 1.616 times the diameter of the ball.

A pool table would have to have a 3.636" pocket to be as difficult as a snooker table.

Throw in the fact its 12x6...

 

[Petros Andrikop]

Anything could be tried, IMHO 3.636" pockets will lead to a different game, not necessarily a "better" one...