Joe Barringer - Cue Building Dvd's

cueman said:
Your points are valid. I would only disagree with you about CNC, as CNC has definitely contributed to price dropping. It has also given an illusion of building quality cues too early in a cuemakers career, by being able to make them fancy to soon. In the early to mid 90's there were only a handfull of us that actually had been paid thousands of dollars for a single cue. Most of us were using pantographs. Almost all who had built cues fancy enough to achieve that price range, were building quality cues as well as fancy. Now many fancy cues are not high quality. I hate to have to say this, but it is a fact. There are people who glue almost their entire cue together with super glue, yet build fancy cues. They can buy a pre-programmed ready to fly CNC Inlay Machine and be doing tight, fancy inlay work off the bat.
I have definitely created a lot of competition among cuemakers by helping so many get into it. I plead guilty to that charge. Not only with my Book and DVD's, but with my equipment also. I once sold a lathe to a guy in Birmingham and he came over and locked up the tournaments in Atlanta, by knowing a tour director. I used to work 95% of all big amateur and Pro events in Atlanta. So I know what creating competition feels like.
Don't think you are the only cuemaker to complain about me selling this info. I have been told by two very top cuemakers they didn't like it. One even told me he felt I was not qualified to write the book. Other top cuemakers applauded me for doing it. Even though the information was already in my book, I still got emails criticizing or questioning my motive for putting out the two new Advanced DVD's.
So I am going to make public here my main reasons for doing so:
#1) I felt my 12 year old Advanced Cue Building video was too out dated to continue to be a sellable product. It only showed non veneer v-points and inlays on my out dated original model inlay machine. So I felt the info was not best and the machine was not my latest model, and my methods had improved.
#2) Something else had come to bug me lately about our market. V-Points with veneers, Full Splice and Butterflies points are all old-school cue building. Yet recently with the CNC craze they have started being presented as the cutting edge thing. Why should something so basic that almost every cuemaker of 20 years ago mastered, become considered cutting edge? So I wanted to prove to world it takes very little equipment to do and I sell the equipment.
Just as your challenge earlier about making metal parts on my lighter cue lathes, caused me to produce a thread milling attachment for my lathe. I can now make some metal parts on my lathe.
#3) With the death of my wife suddenly from cancer last year, I looked at my Book and Videos and said to myself, Would I be leaving behind a sellable product behind for my son and daughter if something happened to me? I felt it needed redone. Death has a way of making you think about things you normally don't and get some things done you have procrastinated on so long.
I have long planned to re-do the Advanced DVD and that is what I started doing, but decided to go ahead and make it better than planned and do multiple volumes. Putting 90% of the book on DVD is my end goal. So hopefully I am not done yet.
#4) I also saw much of the info being given away on here so why not? If someone wants the info and is willing to pay for it, why not put it out there for a fair price so they can get it all at once, since it will all eventually be put out there for free on this forum anyway?
Those are my main four reasons.


"You Go Boy!
#4) I also saw much of the info being given away on here so why not? If someone wants the info and is willing to pay for it, why not put it out there for a fair price so they can get it all at once, since it will all eventually be put out there for free on this forum anyway?
Those are my main four reasons.

Fair Price is the key here Not $100 for 8 different videos! Put me on your list for your next videos! Keep up the good work, no matter what other cuemakers may think.
 
cueman said:
Your points are valid. I would only disagree with you about CNC, as CNC has definitely contributed to price dropping. It has also given an illusion of building quality cues too early in a cuemakers career, by being able to make them fancy to soon. In the early to mid 90's there were only a handfull of us that actually had been paid thousands of dollars for a single cue. Most of us were using pantographs. Almost all who had built cues fancy enough to achieve that price range, were building quality cues as well as fancy. Now many fancy cues are not high quality. I hate to have to say this, but it is a fact. There are people who glue almost their entire cue together with super glue, yet build fancy cues. They can buy a pre-programmed ready to fly CNC Inlay Machine and be doing tight, fancy inlay work off the bat.
I have definitely created a lot of competition among cuemakers by helping so many get into it. I plead guilty to that charge. Not only with my Book and DVD's, but with my equipment also. I once sold a lathe to a guy in Birmingham and he came over and locked up the tournaments in Atlanta, by knowing a tour director. I used to work 95% of all big amateur and Pro events in Atlanta. So I know what creating competition feels like.
Don't think you are the only cuemaker to complain about me selling this info. I have been told by two very top cuemakers they didn't like it. One even told me he felt I was not qualified to write the book. Other top cuemakers applauded me for doing it. Even though the information was already in my book, I still got emails criticizing or questioning my motive for putting out the two new Advanced DVD's.
So I am going to make public here my main reasons for doing so:
#1) I felt my 12 year old Advanced Cue Building video was too out dated to continue to be a sellable product. It only showed non veneer v-points and inlays on my out dated original model inlay machine. So I felt the info was not best and the machine was not my latest model, and my methods had improved.
#2) Something else had come to bug me lately about our market. V-Points with veneers, Full Splice and Butterflies points are all old-school cue building. Yet recently with the CNC craze they have started being presented as the cutting edge thing. Why should something so basic that almost every cuemaker of 20 years ago mastered, become considered cutting edge? So I wanted to prove to world it takes very little equipment to do and I sell the equipment.
Just as your challenge earlier about making metal parts on my lighter cue lathes, caused me to produce a thread milling attachment for my lathe. I can now make some metal parts on my lathe.
#3) With the death of my wife suddenly from cancer last year, I looked at my Book and Videos and said to myself, Would I be leaving behind a sellable product behind for my son and daughter if something happened to me? I felt it needed redone. Death has a way of making you think about things you normally don't and get some things done you have procrastinated on so long.
I have long planned to re-do the Advanced DVD and that is what I started doing, but decided to go ahead and make it better than planned and do multiple volumes. Putting 90% of the book on DVD is my end goal. So hopefully I am not done yet.
#4) I also saw much of the info being given away on here so why not? If someone wants the info and is willing to pay for it, why not put it out there for a fair price so they can get it all at once, since it will all eventually be put out there for free on this forum anyway?
Those are my main four reasons.

Hi Chris; Do you have any idea, as to how many people have bought your lathes, that were already Qmakers (as I did many years ago). I have an idea that many people buy your equipment or info & never accually become Qmakers. Do you agree?. Hope this finds you & yours well...JER
 
bubsbug said:
"You Go Boy!
#4) I also saw much of the info being given away on here so why not? If someone wants the info and is willing to pay for it, why not put it out there for a fair price so they can get it all at once, since it will all eventually be put out there for free on this forum anyway?
Those are my main four reasons.

Fair Price is the key here Not $100 for 8 different videos! Put me on your list for your next videos! Keep up the good work, no matter what other cuemakers may think.


Ok, I am confused! Not that this is hard to do. Buggy in this thread:

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=70687

You are quoted saying this about Joes dvds:
"There is lots of usefull information and illistrations to learn from?"

So are you now saying that Joes dvds aren't worth the $800 you payed for them? IMHO Chris isn't charging enough. I will most certainly purchase any other dvds he offers. By the way the first new dvd was worth what I payed for both of them 15 minutes into it.

IMHO, these videos help those that most likely would be building cues reguardless. I like seeing different ways to solve problems. Chris and Joe have come up with several good ideas or improvements. I realy don't know if you could put a price on that. Who knows, one of these days Buggy, you may make some videos of those laminate shafts of yours. It would be a nice thought that others will be interested in your ideas and not looking to get them at rock bottom prices.

Jimbo.
 
I have no problem sharing information, nor do I have a problem with someone selling it. (Unless they are bullsh*t artists, because it reflects badly on the rest of us.)
Sure, the custom cue market is a bit watered down, and it's a tough way to make a living, but we live in the information age now, so it's time to adapt or find a new way to make money. Whining about it wont make it any easier.
Neither will pining for the good 'ol days when only a handful of people had the equipment or inclination to make cues. It's a bit like an artist's or writer's or actor's job now. Almost anyone can try it. Some will rise above, and the rest will either barely float along, or sink out of sight.....
 
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Mc2 said:
Ok, I am confused! Not that this is hard to do. Buggy in this thread:

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=70687

You are quoted saying this about Joes dvds:
"There is lots of usefull information and illistrations to learn from?"

So are you now saying that Joes dvds aren't worth the $800 you payed for them? IMHO Chris isn't charging enough. I will most certainly purchase any other dvds he offers. By the way the first new dvd was worth what I payed for both of them 15 minutes into it.

IMHO, these videos help those that most likely would be building cues reguardless. I like seeing different ways to solve problems. Chris and Joe have come up with several good ideas or improvements. I realy don't know if you could put a price on that. Who knows, one of these days Buggy, you may make some videos of those laminate shafts of yours. It would be a nice thought that others will be interested in your ideas and not looking to get them at rock bottom prices.

Jimbo.

First, I paied nowhere near $800 for them as they were used, nor did I solicit them, they came to me!

There is some really good information with creative ideas in them, no doubt. Joe is a very knowledgable guy who makes good cues. To me $800 is a lot of money. I dont know if I ever would have got them if it hadn't been for sutch a good deal. I probably would have gotten a few maybe over a questional period of time.

I will say this. For $800 I would expect complete profesionalism. I think Joe missed the boat on this one. It's like he had a chip on his shoulder and bashed all the other cuemakes out there. He would perform a procedure and then say I dont recommend you do it this way. It's like he didn't practice what he was teaching. Rude, very rude is putting it lightly. The smoking and belching and mountain dew drinking has no place in these videos. Granted joe is a fine cue builder and I respect his talents but are the videos worth $800? It's just hard for me to jusify it, thats all. I guess for me I cant completely make up my mind! Maybe my mind is clouded by what I paied for them.
 
I believe the proof is in the pudding so to speak, When I see more of Joe's and Chris's cues THAT THEY CREATED with their theories and techniques expressed in the cue, then, and only then, would I decide if I wanted the DVDs.
SHOW ME YOUR CUES.
 
Michael Webb said:
I believe the proof is in the pudding so to speak, When I see more of Joe's and Chris's cues THAT THEY CREATED with their theories and techniques expressed in the cue, then, and only then, would I decide if I wanted the DVDs.
SHOW ME YOUR CUES.
Go to www.hightowercues.com to see my cues. There are at least a few dozen in my cue gallery showing the kind of work I do. May not be your taste, but they are what I do.
 
BLACKHEARTCUES said:
Hi Chris; Do you have any idea, as to how many people have bought your lathes, that were already Qmakers (as I did many years ago). I have an idea that many people buy your equipment or info & never accually become Qmakers. Do you agree?. Hope this finds you & yours well...JER
Many get into it and never make a go of it at all, or get bored after building a few cues and quit. Many just continue as repairmen. I do not know the percentages, but I do know some very well known cuemakers who started with my equipment and are still at it. That makes me feel good to know where they got their start even though no one else knows.
 
cueman said:
Your points are valid. I would only disagree with you about CNC, as CNC has definitely contributed to price dropping. It has also given an illusion of building quality cues too early in a cuemakers career, by being able to make them fancy to soon. In the early to mid 90's there were only a handfull of us that actually had been paid thousands of dollars for a single cue. Most of us were using pantographs. Almost all who had built cues fancy enough to achieve that price range, were building quality cues as well as fancy. Now many fancy cues are not high quality. I hate to have to say this, but it is a fact. There are people who glue almost their entire cue together with super glue, yet build fancy cues. They can buy a pre-programmed ready to fly CNC Inlay Machine and be doing tight, fancy inlay work off the bat.
I have definitely created a lot of competition among cuemakers by helping so many get into it. I plead guilty to that charge. Not only with my Book and DVD's, but with my equipment also. I once sold a lathe to a guy in Birmingham and he came over and locked up the tournaments in Atlanta, by knowing a tour director. I used to work 95% of all big amateur and Pro events in Atlanta. So I know what creating competition feels like.
Don't think you are the only cuemaker to complain about me selling this info. I have been told by two very top cuemakers they didn't like it. One even told me he felt I was not qualified to write the book. Other top cuemakers applauded me for doing it. Even though the information was already in my book, I still got emails criticizing or questioning my motive for putting out the two new Advanced DVD's.
So I am going to make public here my main reasons for doing so:
#1) I felt my 12 year old Advanced Cue Building video was too out dated to continue to be a sellable product. It only showed non veneer v-points and inlays on my out dated original model inlay machine. So I felt the info was not best and the machine was not my latest model, and my methods had improved.
#2) Something else had come to bug me lately about our market. V-Points with veneers, Full Splice and Butterflies points are all old-school cue building. Yet recently with the CNC craze they have started being presented as the cutting edge thing. Why should something so basic that almost every cuemaker of 20 years ago mastered, become considered cutting edge? So I wanted to prove to world it takes very little equipment to do and I sell the equipment.
Just as your challenge earlier about making metal parts on my lighter cue lathes, caused me to produce a thread milling attachment for my lathe. I can now make some metal parts on my lathe.
#3) With the death of my wife suddenly from cancer last year, I looked at my Book and Videos and said to myself, Would I be leaving behind a sellable product behind for my son and daughter if something happened to me? I felt it needed redone. Death has a way of making you think about things you normally don't and get some things done you have procrastinated on so long.
I have long planned to re-do the Advanced DVD and that is what I started doing, but decided to go ahead and make it better than planned and do multiple volumes. Putting 90% of the book on DVD is my end goal. So hopefully I am not done yet.
#4) I also saw much of the info being given away on here so why not? If someone wants the info and is willing to pay for it, why not put it out there for a fair price so they can get it all at once, since it will all eventually be put out there for free on this forum anyway?
Those are my main four reasons.

I didn't say "I" was complaining about the information being dispersed but probably, in the back of my mind, I am. But I'm guilty also as I've told way to much on this forum. What I was trying to get across is that the "mystery" of building cues is out of the bag. I bet many professional magicians would be upset also if someone brought out a book showing how easy and simple most of the illusions are. Many people, regardless if they build cues or not, now know how it is done and that you don't have to be a wizard or rocket scientist to build one. Things that looked so tough to do to a customer now know how easy it really is and see no reason to have to pay the price that was once asked.

It appears to me that you believe it's all CNC's fault for this decline but you are sticking up for a Panto mill. What is the difference between the two? They use the exact same cutters, they both follow a pattern and the inlays can look identical. The only difference is the Panto mill may be a little cheaper to get started with but in the long run the CNC is much cheaper and a more efficient use of time, if you intend having many different inlays. Fact is, just as fancy and just as poorly built can be done on both Panto mill and CNC. That is totally up to the builder, not the inlay machinery.

Dick
 
Michael Webb said:
Been there, Show some closeups.
What is your point? I thought I had closeups. Is the end of the points what you are wanting to see better? The butt sleeves are pretty close up, so you can see my inlay work clearly. I will openly admit I am not the tightest, cleanest cuemaker on the planet. Anyone else willing to say so? Are you wanting me to prove I am the very best before teaching someone what I do know? You have a reputation for doing super clean veneer work. I would put my mitered veneer point work above average, but not the speed of some I have seen. My Re-cut points and Butt-joint veneer points are equal to any I have seen so far. I have not seen your veneer work in person, but my son said he did and that it was very good. But veneer work is not all that is on the DVDs. So again: What is your point?
 
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cueman said:
What is your point? I thought I had closeups. Is the end of the points what you are wanting to see better? The butt sleeves are pretty close up, so you can see my inlay work clearly. I will openly admit I am not the tightest, cleanest cuemaker on the planet. Anyone else willing to say so? Are you wanting me to prove I am the very best before teaching someone what I do know? You have a reputation for doing super clean veneer work. I would put my mitered veneer point work above average, but not the speed of some I have seen. My Re-cut points and Butt-joint veneer points are equal to any I have seen so far. I have not seen your veneer work in person, but my son said he did and that it was very good. But veneer work is not all that is on the DVDs. So again: What is your point?

This has nothing to do with my work. I don't sell construction techniques on how to do things. It's against everything I believe in, this you already know. It's about everyone who sells HOW TO DVDs.
Let's say I don't know nothing, I say it all the time. You and the other marketers, Please show me some close ups of your cues, that will make me say I Have to have this! I'm not challenging your motives for selling them. I am challenging all of you to show me something other than the usual sales speech, show me actual pictures UPCLOSE.
If you offer a mitering system, You me your miters, .018 and .020 don't count show me .035's
If you overlap veneers, Show it
If you offer a full splice, Show it.
If you offer re cuts or re milled, Show it.
Give me some examples to want your product.
That's not asking for to much is it?
This is not a close up
http://www.webbcues.com/gallery.html
This is somewhat of a close up
http://www.webbcues.com/images/cues2/Ebony Forearms.html
This is a close up
http://www.webbcues.com/images/cues2/Snakewood-Points,-with-Bla.html
 
One can have all the tools you can find, and all the materials, and all the instructions, and dvds, but the real final product is from the person. A major part of any hobby or trade, is the natural talent that one may possess for that trade. As an example, Fishing is my brother's passion, I have fished a lot of rivers and streams with my brother over the years, using the same lures, bait, poles, alot of his advice, etc. I go thru a pool and 25min. later, still not even a bite. my brother comes in as I move down and he can't keep them off the line, using the same lure. He can walk up to a puddle and catch a 15" rainbow everytime.
The main thing that I think makes cue building so amazing, as every cue a person makes can be an expression of their imagination, passion, and talent. To look at the cues that have been displayed on this forum and the respective websites of all the builders, bears this out. All of the builders on this forum should be commended for their contributions not only for their cue work, but also for their mentoring to the rest of us beginners as we try to learn and hopefully measure up to their levels someday. People that spend this much time at a computer trying to help someone like me, are worthy of all my praise. If they want to make a video or book for the same purposes, and charge for that service, that's okay with me, because I know if I go it alone, I'll spend a hell of alot more making many more mistakes without the video. If someone charges a price and someone is willing to pay it, then in their mind it's worth it. To quibble about if DVDs/books are worth the money charged because of who made them or how much they charged, etc. is, simply put, time not well spent. Life is way to short, and there's way to much sawdust to make and so little time to make it.:)
Just my humble 'pinion
Dave
 
I started this thread to estimate the worth of Joes DVD's since he commands such a high price. When it comes to Chris' DVD's I think he is doing a great job and a great service. I think there are a lot of cue builders that simply do not want thier industry flooded with new builders. I think this is foolish. Everyone had to start somewhere and these guys, especially Chris has stepped forward to help. I have 2 local cue builders one featured on both Texas Country Reporter and Inside Pool booth have shared a wealth of knowledge. I have been invited in both thier shops and they have graciously showed thier methods of doing various things. Its people like Chris and these builders that will enhance this industry.
 
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i have all of chris' videos except the new one. i dont like to "bash" anyones buisness but i dont see spending 800$ on the other videos. chris' dvd and book is more than enough to get you started. even hall of fame cuemakers learn more and more each day. everytime i build a cue i learn a new trick or shortcut to easier building. the sky is the limit.

mike webb i love your cues. very clean and i respect you a great deal however you keep saying "say i know nothing"... well if you know nothing you shouldnt be building cues. period

i think cuemaking is a art. take mottey for instance. he is a excellent plays. he KNOWS what his cues should feel like. i think it takes a player to truely understand this art. i say this bc i know a cuemaker that is NOT a player. (maybe an apa 4 or 5) he is in construction and does cues on the side. to me his cues play like crapolla

chris said his cues are not everyones taste but theyre his. i agree. find a cuemaker that fits YOU.

there is so much more i want to say but im at work gg. check in later
 
dave sutton said:
i have all of chris' videos except the new one. i dont like to "bash" anyones buisness but i dont see spending 800$ on the other videos. chris' dvd and book is more than enough to get you started. even hall of fame cuemakers learn more and more each day. everytime i build a cue i learn a new trick or shortcut to easier building. the sky is the limit.

mike webb i love your cues. very clean and i respect you a great deal however you keep saying "say i know nothing"... well if you know nothing you shouldnt be building cues. period

i think cuemaking is a art. take mottey for instance. he is a excellent plays. he KNOWS what his cues should feel like. i think it takes a player to truely understand this art. i say this bc i know a cuemaker that is NOT a player. (maybe an apa 4 or 5) he is in construction and does cues on the side. to me his cues play like crapolla

chris said his cues are not everyones taste but theyre his. i agree. find a cuemaker that fits YOU.

there is so much more i want to say but im at work gg. check in later

Hi Dave
My post is not a bash towards anyone, I respect Chris and Joe.
 
If someone advertises a groovy CNC lathe, they display neat widgets that can be made on the lathe with a program and one setup.

If someone wants to sell a booklet explaining how to chip flint just like native Americans did it 1000 years ago, you display an arrowhead made with the techniques described in the booklet showing perfect symmetry with no marks left on it from metal.

I think Mike is just trying to say what would make the DVD's worth it to him is seeing cue construction (close enough to tell detail) that would make him want to buy the DVD's. Given there was a discussion of whether the DVD's are worth the price (regardless of who made them), it seems to me what Mike was trying to express was quite rational. In the end, each individual must make up his own mind whether they are worth it, and that was Mike's personal criteria.

Kelly
 
dave sutton said:
i have all of chris' videos except the new one. i dont like to "bash" anyones buisness but i dont see spending 800$ on the other videos. chris' dvd and book is more than enough to get you started. even hall of fame cuemakers learn more and more each day. everytime i build a cue i learn a new trick or shortcut to easier building. the sky is the limit.

mike webb i love your cues. very clean and i respect you a great deal however you keep saying "say i know nothing"... well if you know nothing you shouldnt be building cues. period

i think cuemaking is a art. take mottey for instance. he is a excellent plays. he KNOWS what his cues should feel like. i think it takes a player to truely understand this art. i say this bc i know a cuemaker that is NOT a player. (maybe an apa 4 or 5) he is in construction and does cues on the side. to me his cues play like crapolla

chris said his cues are not everyones taste but theyre his. i agree. find a cuemaker that fits YOU.

there is so much more i want to say but im at work gg. check in later
I think you missed the point Mike was making.
 
TellsItLikeItIs said:
I think you missed the point Mike was making.

i do understand completely. no video can sub for hands on experience. ive been doing repairs about 10 years before even attempting to make my own cues. i learn something new everyday.

i tried to sum up 3 pages of posts in 2 small post bc i was at work

if your gonna spend 800$ for a video why not spend 3500$ and go the cue building college cue components offers. thats worth the money!!!!!!
 
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