John Brumback's "Bank Pool Secrets of a World Champion"

TheThaiger said:
You miss the point, Sean. Based on your logic, why not pitch it straight and exclusively to Bill Gates for £100m. He can afford it, he'll benefit from it and he'll absolutely mash Buffet with it, so it'll be worth it for him in terms of bragging rights, and JB will be well rewarded for his life's work

Meanwhile, plebs like us can eat cake.

We really MUST get away from this idea that a product is worth what someone is prepared to pay for it. That is true for originals, like a Picasso, but for a mass-marketed DVD that costs 2 bucks to produce, it is RIDICULOUS. Manufacturers are playing on our vanity, and we are letting them.

Enough with creating barriers to the game. Make it ten dollars and let every pool player benefit from it. That's what we're here for, right? To improve the pool playing community?
Click to expand...

How much do you think the man is entitled to make by sharing 30yrs worth of expert knowledge? Knowledge that can help others make money, save money and bring more joy while playing.
You also have to keep in mind the whole process of him obtaining dealers and then there is their pricing. At $10 retail and them getting it for $5 I just see a complete waste of Johns time and talent. There are not that many pool players that actually go out and purchase instructional stuff, they rather show up and say I need more weight.
$50 is a good price for everyone involved, thanks John. Now hurry up and get mine out today ;)
Congrats.
 
TheThaiger said:
You miss the point, Sean. Based on your logic, why not pitch it straight and exclusively to Bill Gates for £100m. He can afford it, he'll benefit from it and he'll absolutely mash Buffet with it, so it'll be worth it for him in terms of bragging rights, and JB will be well rewarded for his life's work

Meanwhile, plebs like us can eat cake.

We really MUST get away from this idea that a product is worth what someone is prepared to pay for it. That is true for originals, like a Picasso, but for a mass-marketed DVD that costs 2 bucks to produce, it is RIDICULOUS. Manufacturers are playing on our vanity, and we are letting them.

Enough with creating barriers to the game. Make it ten dollars and let every pool player benefit from it. That's what we're here for, right? To improve the pool playing community?
Click to expand...
How do I recover my $10,000. in equipment to make this possible, not to mention my time?
Mark
 
sfleinen said:
Tim:

The problem with your logic is that it is not exclusive to "pool" like you seem so "kill-shot" oriented with. Your logic would extend to the marketing of *any* recorded media, not just pool, nor just "instructional" media. That means movies (e.g. NetFlix, BlockBuster), games (e.g. the aforementioned Call of Duty), printed materials scanned and placed on DVD for convenience reasons, etc. Oh heck, why are we even fixated on DVDs? How about *any* recorded media, in any way/shape/form? That's not a far leap, you know. In fact, it's the direct logical extension.

Your idea that material "plopped onto a disc" shouldn't cost more than $10 is head-in-the-clouds idealistic at best. At worst, it's a knock against *anyone* receiving fair compensation for exercising brain cells and coming up with cool/great ideas that make people's lives easier or more fun.

Like it or not, you are in a capitalistic society. Supply and demand. The market bears what the market will withstand. All that happy stuff.

-Sean
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It does, but that's because we're dumb enough to put up with it - don't buy that $80k cue and see what happens to the price. We add an emotional attachment to the product, where there needn't be one.

Your music analogy is a good one - the number one album costs the same as the number 100 album, give or take. Whitney Huston's albums will no doubt be trading for a higher price today than they were this time last week - it doesn't do her any good, and those buying her records now she's dead are morons. And that's the issue here - too many morons, with too much money, driving up the cost of products they feel will marginally improve THEIR performance.

That's a barrier to entry in any market, and pool don't need no barriers, sister.
 
TheThaiger said:
It does, but that's because we're dumb enough to put up with it - don't buy that $80k cue and see what happens to the price. We add an emotional attachment to the product, where there needn't be one.

Your music analogy is a good one - the number one album costs the same as the number 100 album, give or take. Whitney Huston's albums will no doubt be trading for a higher price today than they were this time last week - it doesn't do her any good, and those buying her records now she's dead are morons. And that's the issue here - too many morons, with too much money, driving up the cost of products they feel will marginally improve THEIR performance.

That's a barrier to entry in any market, and pool don't need no barriers, sister.
Click to expand...

Let's be specific here -- *YOU* don't have to put up with it. But you don't speak for other people who feel differently than you do, who, right or wrong in your eyes, *do* place an emotional price on things they feel are of value. Call it emotional or call it sentimental, but to that person, it's *value*. Your concept of "value" is certainly different from other people.

Like I said, you are in a capitalistic society. Your arguments against it will fall on deaf ears. The phrase "like it or lump it" applies here. Whenever someone (at least in the I.T. industry where I work) comes up with a great idea, they have a choice to either package it and offer it as a commercial product, or they can "open source" it. You are free to start your own "open source" pool information movement, if you like.

But then again, isn't that what discussion forums are in the first place?

-Sean
 
pool101 said:
How do I recover my $10,000. in equipment to make this possible, not to mention my time?
Mark
Click to expand...

Make it cheaper and sell more copies?

Look, I understand you need to make money, and I'm sure the video's very good, and I've no doubt JB is a nice fella with loads of good info to share, but my concern is not with you per se - it's to do with pool in general, and how willing we are pay over the odds for every single piece of equipment, seemingly.

It is in your interests as much as mine to make pool as accessible as possible. That kid who might be a 60 year customer is going to spend his $50 birthday money on CoD4.
 
sfleinen said:
Let's be specific here -- *YOU* don't have to put up with it. But you don't speak for other people who feel differently than you do, who, right or wrong in your eyes, *do* place an emotional price on things they feel are of value. Call it emotional or call it sentimental, but to that person, it's *value*. Your concept of "value" is certainly different from other people.

Like I said, you are in a capitalistic society. Your arguments against it will fall on deaf ears. The phrase "like it or lump it" applies here. Whenever someone (at least in the I.T. industry where I work) comes up with a great idea, they have a choice to either package it and offer it as a commercial product, or they can "open source" it. You are free to start your own "open source" pool information movement, if you like.

But then again, isn't that what discussion forums are in the first place?

-Sean
Click to expand...

Discussion forums (and other forms of social media) are becoming increasingly important in terms of shaping attitudes in general.

I should be perfectly free to float the idea that pool players are themselves harming the long term development of the game, through legitimising price gouging for their own selfish ends.

Obviously, you are free to disagree, but what I always see on here is a desire to protect the money rather than the game itself, and that's dispiriting.
 
pt109 said:
Thaiger, one pocket and bank pool are almost always 'money' games.
So, if you're losing your $$$ playing banks, it might be 'cause your opponent
bought this video.
A poor man can't afford cheap tools...instruction is a tool.

Now, you may not need this video...you've said you don't gamble....
...and besides, it's not called 'Doubles Secrets'..:grin:
Click to expand...

True enough! :D
 
TheThaiger said:
Make it cheaper and sell more copies?

Look, I understand you need to make money, and I'm sure the video's very good, and I've no doubt JB is a nice fella with loads of good info to share, but my concern is not with you per se - it's to do with pool in general, and how willing we are pay over the odds for every single piece of equipment, seemingly.

It is in your interests as much as mine to make pool as accessible as possible. That kid who might be a 60 year customer is going to spend his $50 birthday money on CoD4.
Click to expand...

Tim:

You have an issue with a $50 pool instructional DVD, but you don't have an issue with a $50 game? And, I'm surprised you even offer this as something to "solidify" your argument, because when you think about it, you're also pulling the floorboards out from underneath your own argument. Think about it -- you have an issue with people placing emotional value on things, and "upping" the price. Got it. But you have no issue with that kid who, in the blink of an eye, will plop down $50 for CoD4, as an example "against" pool101 wanting $50 for a pool instructional DVD that will have arguably more value to the purchaser in the long run?

You're not making sense here. I mean, I *think* I get what you're trying to say -- i.e. that "anything pool" should be open, accessible, and cheap to help it out of its doldrums. This I get. But you're offering analogies that have no corollary or substance to your argument. The recorded media twist doesn't work.

-Sean
 
TheThaiger said:
...pool players are themselves harming the long term development of the game, through legitimising price gouging for their own selfish ends.
Click to expand...


What a load of rubbish... how many wealthy pro pool players do you know of? Nearly every one I know is biting and scratching to make ends meet. You are completely out of touch with the real pool world my friend.
 
TheThaiger said:
Discussion forums (and other forms of social media) are becoming increasingly important in terms of shaping attitudes in general.

I should be perfectly free to float the idea that pool players are themselves harming the long term development of the game, through legitimising price gouging for their own selfish ends.

Obviously, you are free to disagree, but what I always see on here is a desire to protect the money rather than the game itself, and that's dispiriting.
Click to expand...

What do you do for a living? Should you be getting paid for your knowledge? How much is your knowledge worth? How much do I think your knowledge is worth? If I do not think your knowledge is worth your hourly rate I won't hire you. If you do not think the DVD is worth the price do not buy it.
I already offered to buy it back if you felt it was not worth it.
So .....
Stop trying to save the world from John, and go hit some balls. Just don't play banks with someone who has the DVD.. You won't like it..
 
Joe T said:
How much do you think the man is entitled to make by sharing 30yrs worth of expert knowledge? Knowledge that can help others make money, save money and bring more joy while playing.
You also have to keep in mind the whole process of him obtaining dealers and then there is their pricing. At $10 retail and them getting it for $5 I just see a complete waste of Johns time and talent. There are not that many pool players that actually go out and purchase instructional stuff, they rather show up and say I need more weight.
$50 is a good price for everyone involved, thanks John. Now hurry up and get mine out today ;)
Congrats.
Click to expand...

Respectfully, it's NOT a good price for everyone involved. Only a few people will buy it, and certainly no one new to the game will. It won't make JB much money, the production people will be lucky to make their costs back. Etc.

Actually, what this is is a weather-vane for the state pool has got itself into. Pool is in a mess, and I don't think it'll get out of it by charging $50 for a DVD. I'm not blaming anyone individually, but the longer it's allowed to be a rich older man's timewaster, the sooner it'll die for good. :(
 
TheThaiger said:
Discussion forums (and other forms of social media) are becoming increasingly important in terms of shaping attitudes in general.

I should be perfectly free to float the idea that pool players are themselves harming the long term development of the game, through legitimising price gouging for their own selfish ends.

Obviously, you are free to disagree, but what I always see on here is a desire to protect the money rather than the game itself, and that's dispiriting.
Click to expand...

Tim:

Your issue is part of an overall much larger picture. Your "kill-shot" focus on pool is like firing toothpicks at a lumber yard. Let's be clear about this -- you have a problem with society in general, not just "pool." You have a problem with the fact that people will pay what they deem to be "fair market value" or even "sentimental value" for things. You have a problem with, I imagine, Sotheby's auctions where, e.g., items formerly owned by the rich and famous are auctioned off for hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of dollars. I can picture you scoffing at a Sotheby's auction of, say, items formerly owned by Whitney Houston, and buyers not being hesitant to bid hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars for these things. And, I can picture you scoffing at the interview of said winning bidder, where, although they are now that many hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars lighter in the wallet, they are now obviously elated they won the bid. I'd certainly bet the winning bidder thinks they got "value," but you may disagree.

-Sean
 
Worminator said:
What a load of rubbish... how many wealthy pro pool players do you know of? Nearly every one I know is biting and scratching to make ends meet. You are completely out of touch with the real pool world my friend.
Click to expand...

I don't think you understand this one, old chap.
 
sfleinen said:
Tim:

Your issue is part of an overall much larger picture. Your "kill-shot" focus on pool is like firing toothpicks at a lumber yard. Let's be clear about this -- you have a problem with society in general, not just "pool." You have a problem with the fact that people will pay what they deem to be "fair market value" or even "sentimental value" for things. You have a problem with, I imagine, Sotheby's auctions where, e.g., items formerly owned by the rich and famous are auctioned off for hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of dollars. I can picture you scoffing at a Sotheby's auction of, say, items formerly owned by Whitney Houston, and buyers not being hesitant to bid hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars for these things. And, I can picture you scoffing at the interview of said winning bidder, where, although they are now that many hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars lighter in the wallet, they are now obviously elated they won the bid. I'd certainly bet the winning bidder thinks they got "value," but you may disagree.

-Sean
Click to expand...

Damn right I'd be scoffing at anyone paying millions of dollars for artifacts of the drug-addled Whitney Houston - who wouldn't be?

So tell me, Sean, how does a $50 DVD, that only a handful of people can afford to buy, help the development of pool?

The sooner we say no, the sooner prices fall and the sooner the game recovers.
 
TheThaiger said:
Damn right I'd be scoffing at anyone paying millions of dollars for artifacts of the drug-addled Whitney Houston - who wouldn't be?

So tell me, Sean, how does a $50 DVD, that only a handful of people can afford to buy, help the development of pool?

The sooner we say no, the sooner prices fall and the sooner the game recovers.
Click to expand...


Boy, you sure do have all the answers Mr. Tim. Seems you could be the one to really take this game to new heights... but I won't hold my breath.

Good luck... I'm out...
 
TheThaiger said:
Damn right I'd be scoffing at anyone paying millions of dollars for artifacts of the drug-addled Whitney Houston - who wouldn't be?

So tell me, Sean, how does a $50 DVD, that only a handful of people can afford to buy, help the development of pool?

The sooner we say no, the sooner prices fall and the sooner the game recovers.
Click to expand...

So everything to you is a question of "helping pool"? Every single product, every single idea, every single happening, is now saddled with the question of "helping pool"?

Tell me this, Tim -- how does, oh, I don't know, gambling -- "help pool"? How does the fact that you have to pay per-hour fees for personal instruction "help pool"? You think instructors would like to hear the answer of $10/hr maximum for personal instruction, because you think "it'd help pool"?

If you disagree with that analogy, then my next question to you is how is an instructional DVD product any different than an instructor's "product"? It's the same instructional material, right?

-Sean
 
sfleinen said:
Tim:

You have an issue with a $50 pool instructional DVD, but you don't have an issue with a $50 game? And, I'm surprised you even offer this as something to "solidify" your argument, because when you think about it, you're also pulling the floorboards out from underneath your own argument. Think about it -- you have an issue with people placing emotional value on things, and "upping" the price. Got it. But you have no issue with that kid who, in the blink of an eye, will plop down $50 for CoD4, as an example "against" pool101 wanting $50 for a pool instructional DVD that will have arguably more value to the purchaser in the long run?

You're not making sense here. I mean, I *think* I get what you're trying to say -- i.e. that "anything pool" should be open, accessible, and cheap to help it out of its doldrums. This I get. But you're offering analogies that have no corollary or substance to your argument. The recorded media twist doesn't work.

-Sean
Click to expand...

Respectfully, sean, it appears YOU are muddling your analogies here.

I make no comment on whether CoD4 represents good value for money for the 12 year old child, but I am damn sure he believes it to be better VFM than JB's Banking Secrets.

Ultimately, people will pay $50 because they can afford it and it appeals to their egos. But if you think charging $50 for a DVD of a few pool shots is helping the game of pool, you're mistaken.

I'm perfectly prepared to accept this is a great product. I'm not going to be persuaded that this is a great price, or even one that's worthy, so, on a point of principle, "I'm out" - even if that does harm my game in the long run.
 
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