This a great analogy. The challenge is whether forum readers will understand it.
Freddie <~~~ on the page
John Schmidt's and Corey Deuel's comments on aiming systems
- Thread starter PoolSharkAllen
- Start date
This a great analogy. The challenge is whether forum readers will understand it.
Freddie <~~~ on the page
You know I just dont agree with some things here and really wasnt trying to derail things I just see things different.Things tend to get twisted in these forums so I leaving this alone.
One thing is for certain im not here to sell you anything.
Take care Anthony
You know I just dont agree with some things here and really wasnt trying to derail things I just see things different.Things tend to get twisted in these forums so I leaving this alone.
One thing is for certain im not here to sell you anything.
Take care Anthony
You keep saying that. Yet you haven't posted one example where undercutting would be better.
..............
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I was just about to post a "lol" onto this one when I noticed PJ has been banned. So I took a look back through his most recent posts to see what might have led to that and could find *nothing* untoward. He has been on-topic, polite, and adding to the conversation.
So what happened?
Certainly, it cannot be him making a play on words re: "a plethora of analogies" sounding like a disease? Please, at least tell me he didn't get banned because his sense of humor was too sophisticated and went flying over someone else's head.
Lou Figueroa
Wasn't going to, but feel I have to post on this. For the most part, I agree with you. That is coming from an amateur player.
I believe there is some misunderstanding going on here between the pro view and the amateur view, and a big part of what CJ actually said is being missed.
CJ is talking about which PART of the pocket to put the ball in. All pros, and higher level amateurs can understand this. The higher amateurs will do it at shorter distances, the pros at longer distances. (for the most part)
Most of the amateurs, and this is where the problem arises, are nowheres near accurate enough to aim for part of the pocket. They are aiming for the pocket period. They cannot, and should not, be trying to undercut a ball hoping they get safe if they miss. If they do, they will overcut it most of the time. Then they feel good because they missed it on "the pro side". But, if they had aimed it at center pocket to start with, they wouldn't have missed it at all. They actually talk themselves into missing the shot by hitting it too thin. They should be going for center pocket. Going for center pocket, if they are off a little one way or the other, they still make it. They just don't have the accuracy yet to go for a part of the pocket.
Not having that fine accuracy, not even having a good enough stroke to attain that kind of accuracy, they are hit and miss on fine accuracy. Because of that, they should be going for center pocket in 95% of all shots.
As far as favoring english to one side or the other, I totally agree with that one. Most will not hit center ball on demand. The reason they don't, is simply that they don't know how to accurately find center, and they don't take the time to practice it. It's really not that hard to do, though. So, I disagree with CJ on that one, and am surprised to here him say it is so tough.
Take a ball near the rail, about a 1" off it. Give yourself about a 45 degree angle on it. Now, you want to make it and have the cb go forward across the table about one ball's width, no more, no less, to get through some obstacles. There are several ways to do it. You can follow a little, or you can put a little english on it to accomplish the same thing as follow. The follow is very touchy to do. The english can be very accurate.
So, instead of using follow with zero english, and possibly hitting the cb a little off and putting reverse english on it. It is easier to purposely put a little running english on a stun shot and control the cb.
As far as PJ getting banned, it was obviously coming. Wilson said what would happen when you repeatedly tell another poster they don't know what they are talking about, without offering any substance as to why you feel they are wrong. All that is, is antagonizing someone else trying to add something, not having a discussion.
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Thanks for your post Neil.
I feel nowhere in my post im off base with any of this.
Its just how I see it.Been playing more than half my life and have hit MORE than a million balls and have every rite to post my veiws.
Things sure have away of going south on here...lol
I don't think it's "so tough" to spin balls in with outside english, however, it does bring in two different variables to adjust for therefore it makes the "shot speed" a lot more important.....if you spin a ball your cutting to the right in with left english two things happen.....first the cue ball deflects slightly to the right, THEN the spin will curve it back to the left (if you shoot it too hard it deflects MORE than it spins back and if you hit it too soft it will spin back MORE than it deflects and this is tough for most players to judge consistently) ....the most important thing is to create "pocket acceptance english" on the OBJECT BALL...this is done with VERY LITTLE SPIN....certainly not enough to curve it at all....this is something that certainly isn't common knowledge and there is a whole system involved in doing it consistenly....so if you hear me refer to "overcutting balls", "deflecting to the short side of the pocket" or using the "three part pocket system", realize that these are just parts of the puzzle.....if this was so easy it could be described in a sentence or two more people could at least explain it and MANY people would be doing it....instead it's just a VERY small percentage of pros that even understand how it works.....I learned it from something Mike Lebron said many years ago about how Efren looked at the pocket....and with a LOT of work figured out the rest over the course of the next two years of playing against Efren, Hall, Sigel, etc.... they all know how to "throw" balls in...but probably know BETTER than to try to explain it in writing.....I'm just slow to learn how difficult it is to explain different perceptions in writing and look at it as a challenge :smile-us-down::idea2: Even in a personal lesson it takes a couple of hours to truly communicate this paradigm of how to look at the pocket as a zone, instead of just an opening, hole or target....
I don't think it's "so tough" to spin balls in with outside english, however, it does bring in two different variables to adjust for therefore it makes the "shot speed" a lot more important.....if you spin a ball your cutting to the right in with left english two things happen.....first the cue ball deflects slightly to the right, THEN the spin will curve it back to the left (if you shoot it too hard it deflects MORE than it spins back and if you hit it too soft it will spin back MORE than it deflects and this is tough for most players to judge consistently) ....the most important thing is to create "pocket acceptance english" on the OBJECT BALL...this is done with VERY LITTLE SPIN....certainly not enough to curve it at all....this is something that certainly isn't common knowledge and there is a whole system involved in doing it consistenly....so if you hear me refer to "overcutting balls", "deflecting to the short side of the pocket" or using the "three part pocket system", realize that these are just parts of the puzzle.....if this was so easy it could be described in a sentence or two more people could at least explain it and MANY people would be doing it....instead it's just a VERY small percentage of pros that even understand how it works.....I learned it from something Mike Lebron said many years ago about how Efren looked at the pocket....and with a LOT of work figured out the rest over the course of the next two years of playing against Efren, Hall, Sigel, etc.... they all know how to "throw" balls in...but probably know BETTER than to try to explain it in writing.....I'm just slow to learn how difficult it is to explain different perceptions in writing and look at it as a challenge :smile-us-down::idea2: Even in a personal lesson it takes a couple of hours to truly communicate this paradigm of how to look at the pocket as a zone, instead of just an opening, hole or target....
Cj it is great to have you posting ,you are so knowledgeable.This is some good info .Thanks
CJ,
Am I describing the first part of your post correctly?
I don't think it's "so tough" to spin balls in with outside english, however, it does bring in two different variables to adjust for therefore it makes the "shot speed" a lot more important.....if you spin a ball your cutting to the right in with left english two things happen.....first the cue ball deflects slightly to the right
The cue tip hits the CB on the left side – the mass of the front end of the ferrule and shaft pushes itself into the CB moving it to the right. As the tip continues to compress itself into the CB, it imparts a bit of left english.
, THEN the spin will curve it back to the left
When the CB contacts the OB, with or without left english, the CB compresses into the OB and gears itself into the OB. As the CB moves forward, while in contact with the left side of the OB, it imparts left english onto the OB. Left english OB rotation will cause the OB to swerve to the left.
(if you shoot it too hard it deflects MORE than it spins back and if you hit it too soft it will spin back MORE than it deflects and this is tough for most players to judge consistently) ....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXJ7bDafTms
Thanks for the great info.
Am I describing the first part of your post correctly?
I don't think it's "so tough" to spin balls in with outside english, however, it does bring in two different variables to adjust for therefore it makes the "shot speed" a lot more important.....if you spin a ball your cutting to the right in with left english two things happen.....first the cue ball deflects slightly to the right
The cue tip hits the CB on the left side – the mass of the front end of the ferrule and shaft pushes itself into the CB moving it to the right. As the tip continues to compress itself into the CB, it imparts a bit of left english.
, THEN the spin will curve it back to the left
When the CB contacts the OB, with or without left english, the CB compresses into the OB and gears itself into the OB. As the CB moves forward, while in contact with the left side of the OB, it imparts left english onto the OB. Left english OB rotation will cause the OB to swerve to the left.
(if you shoot it too hard it deflects MORE than it spins back and if you hit it too soft it will spin back MORE than it deflects and this is tough for most players to judge consistently) ....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXJ7bDafTms
Thanks for the great info.
I don't think it's "so tough" to spin balls in with outside english, however, it does bring in two different variables to adjust for therefore it makes the "shot speed" a lot more important.....if you spin a ball your cutting to the right in with left english two things happen.....first the cue ball deflects slightly to the right, THEN the spin will curve it back to the left (if you shoot it too hard it deflects MORE than it spins back and if you hit it too soft it will spin back MORE than it deflects and this is tough for most players to judge consistently) ....the most important thing is to create "pocket acceptance english" on the OBJECT BALL...this is done with VERY LITTLE SPIN....certainly not enough to curve it at all....this is something that certainly isn't common knowledge and there is a whole system involved in doing it consistenly....so if you hear me refer to "overcutting balls", "deflecting to the short side of the pocket" or using the "three part pocket system", realize that these are just parts of the puzzle.....if this was so easy it could be described in a sentence or two more people could at least explain it and MANY people would be doing it....instead it's just a VERY small percentage of pros that even understand how it works.....I learned it from something Mike Lebron said many years ago about how Efren looked at the pocket....and with a LOT of work figured out the rest over the course of the next two years of playing against Efren, Hall, Sigel, etc.... they all know how to "throw" balls in...but probably know BETTER than to try to explain it in writing.....I'm just slow to learn how difficult it is to explain different perceptions in writing and look at it as a challenge :smile-us-down::idea2: Even in a personal lesson it takes a couple of hours to truly communicate this paradigm of how to look at the pocket as a zone, instead of just an opening, hole or target....
CJ, I think you misunderstood a part of what I said. I was surprised that you feel it is so tough to hit center ball consistently. Not that it is so tough to put a slight amount of spin on the ball.
I do know what you are talking about. Personally, I use a three part system to alleviate any problems with english. The only time I compensate for english is when I purposely want to throw the ball because it won't go otherwise, or for position (usually to hold the cb when hitting at a little angle)
I just felt that some were getting confused with what you were actually trying to get across and came out thinking that you were advocating spinning balls in all the time. My take is that you are advocating not spinning balls in, but putting a slight amount of sideways rotation on the cb to alleviate CIT (contact induced throw) and then actually aiming finely enough to aim for a part of the pocket.
Personally, I have told many to aim for a part of the pocket. To be a surgeon on the shot, not just hit it in a general area. When you aim for a part of the pocket, whether you are able to actually hit that part or not, you tend to learn to fine tune your aim. Thus becoming much more accurate. Same principle goes for hitting the cb and using english. Really pay attention to what you are doing, generalities will only get you so far.
If you consciously "play the part of a surgeon" for a few months, your subconscious will learn to do it on it's own. Then, all you have left to do is speed control with feel. The rest will be on auto.
To alleviate CIT, conventional wisdom is to use a bit of outside english. But I think CJ has said that he uses a bit of inside english, squirting the CB into the desired hit on the OB.
Edit: I just read the "Center CB Rules Most Of The Time" thread in the Main Forum. Lots of good discussion there about the relationship between inside english and throw.
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The Game is the Teacher
This was an informative video you referred to at the end of your thread and accurate in all the physics aspects {imho}...I did wonder why they kept circling "swerve" on the screen, to point out which "swerve" he was talking about LoLjk ... the technique shown at the very end is also correct from a physics point of view, but not practical in spinning pool shots for consistency ... I used to do it this way and found out from Buddy that there was a better way and of course he was right....again, the most important thing about judging spin and deflection is the SPEED you use on EVERY shot....that's why I talk about there being TWO Different "Themes" to playing effective pocket billiards....one is to do what the table tells you is the "easiest" and the second is to MAKE the table do what you want relative to the type of shot you prefer to hit most often....is someone plays the first way I'm not the one to help them, however if they want to play the second way I can show them exactly how to do it....and I think it depends more on how aggressive a person is naturally which system of play they prefer, because there's two variations of each. www.cjwiley.com
This was an informative video you referred to at the end of your thread and accurate in all the physics aspects {imho}...I did wonder why they kept circling "swerve" on the screen, to point out which "swerve" he was talking about LoLjk ... the technique shown at the very end is also correct from a physics point of view, but not practical in spinning pool shots for consistency ... I used to do it this way and found out from Buddy that there was a better way and of course he was right....again, the most important thing about judging spin and deflection is the SPEED you use on EVERY shot....that's why I talk about there being TWO Different "Themes" to playing effective pocket billiards....one is to do what the table tells you is the "easiest" and the second is to MAKE the table do what you want relative to the type of shot you prefer to hit most often....is someone plays the first way I'm not the one to help them, however if they want to play the second way I can show them exactly how to do it....and I think it depends more on how aggressive a person is naturally which system of play they prefer, because there's two variations of each. www.cjwiley.com
Speed / Spin Accuracy
I do cue the ball to the inside to produce squirt, and because of the speed I prefer it doesn't spin enough to matter....putting "inside english" isn't recommended unless you HAVE TO in order to get shape on your next ball...and the most important aspect of judging spin reaction is the speed that you hit the CB. And of course the condition of the cloth as well.
I do cue the ball to the inside to produce squirt, and because of the speed I prefer it doesn't spin enough to matter....putting "inside english" isn't recommended unless you HAVE TO in order to get shape on your next ball...and the most important aspect of judging spin reaction is the speed that you hit the CB. And of course the condition of the cloth as well.
The Game is the Teacher
Yes, I did read over what you said about "hitting the center" being what I thought was tough....so let me address this point.
I have a proposition for you....you find any player you want and I'll shoot against him....we'll both put the cue ball in the center of the table (the closer to the end rail the more I think it favors me) and we'll both shoot down to the OTHER head end rail and make the cue ball come straight back to where it started with a firm "game like" speed....now YOU are going to bet that your player can make the cue ball come back straight every time and I am going to bet that I can make it come back slightly to the left or right of center (you can pick) .... each time he doesn't make it come back straight you owe me one BET....and each time I don't make it come back to the side you designate you win one BET.....and we'll see how long this lasts before you see what I'm referring to as far as "if it's easier to hit a hair off center in a consistent way OR is it easier to hit the exact center in a consistent way (AND NOT BE ABLE TO PREDICT WHICH WAY THE CUE BALL WILL DEFLECT)....this, if you think about it effects "margin for error" and how you can effectively play the pocket as a ZONE, not just an opening.
Over time this makes a big difference IF both players are playing on tough equipment with cloth that is NOT extremely fast and new. That's one of the reasons I don't think fast, new cloth conditions bring out the best play , because it minimizes off center hits on the cue ball......and this really DOES MATTER when it comes to determining who the best player is with all other things being equal.....I know it may appear I'm going out on a limb making these type statements, but don't hold it against me - THE GAME IS THE TEACHER
Yes, I did read over what you said about "hitting the center" being what I thought was tough....so let me address this point.
I have a proposition for you....you find any player you want and I'll shoot against him....we'll both put the cue ball in the center of the table (the closer to the end rail the more I think it favors me) and we'll both shoot down to the OTHER head end rail and make the cue ball come straight back to where it started with a firm "game like" speed....now YOU are going to bet that your player can make the cue ball come back straight every time and I am going to bet that I can make it come back slightly to the left or right of center (you can pick) .... each time he doesn't make it come back straight you owe me one BET....and each time I don't make it come back to the side you designate you win one BET.....and we'll see how long this lasts before you see what I'm referring to as far as "if it's easier to hit a hair off center in a consistent way OR is it easier to hit the exact center in a consistent way (AND NOT BE ABLE TO PREDICT WHICH WAY THE CUE BALL WILL DEFLECT)....this, if you think about it effects "margin for error" and how you can effectively play the pocket as a ZONE, not just an opening.
Over time this makes a big difference IF both players are playing on tough equipment with cloth that is NOT extremely fast and new. That's one of the reasons I don't think fast, new cloth conditions bring out the best play , because it minimizes off center hits on the cue ball......and this really DOES MATTER when it comes to determining who the best player is with all other things being equal.....I know it may appear I'm going out on a limb making these type statements, but don't hold it against me - THE GAME IS THE TEACHER