Johnny V aiming system... The Clock

Nice description Patrick.
This problem isn't unique to Johnny's method. Visualizing the ghost ball to create the perfect clock position is a complication that makes a system designed to be easy too hard to use. I'd say forget the ghost ball and just aim a little thicker as the cueball gets closer to the object ball. Or, if you find it easier, rather than pointing the arrow at the pocket, point it to a thinner cut area on the rail as necessary.
 
bluepepper said:
... I'd say forget the ghost ball and just aim a little thicker as the cueball gets closer to the object ball. Or, if you find it easier, rather than pointing the arrow at the pocket, point it to a thinner cut area on the rail as necessary.
Click to expand...

I'm sure you meant to say "thinner" in both places here.

pj
chgo
 
Spinoff of Johnny's Clock Method

I'm not sure how much adjustment would be necessary, maybe a lot, with the following method Johnny just inspired.
Instead of looking from above the table to find a clock position, look only from behind the cue ball/object ball line and point an arrow from the pocket through the object ball's center to a point on its 2-D perimeter. This arrow may change slightly depending upon how low your eyes are.
Then connect that point to the mirrored point on the top or bottom of the cueball.

ArrowAiming.JPG
 
Let me try to explain this the best I can so as to eliminate the problem with different angles...

1) look at the top of the object ball and picture a clock face to determine which "hour" you want to send the object ball to. This would be based on lining the centers of the OB and the CB and 6 o'clock being the contact point if you were to shoot straight through the ball.

2) Now forget about lining up the centers of the two balls. (borrowing from PJ's example) Get behind the cueball and move from side to side until the V that is formed between the OB arc and the CB arc intersects at the same hour on the CB as you are looking at it from behind. (this is much easier to see when they are closer together)

3) Once you have the path of the cueball determined place your cue behind the cueball and make your shot.

As you can see I am looking straight down the path of where the cueball sits and where it will be when it hits the OB or as everyone refers; The Ghost Ball. (Man I hate using that term because this is not a GB system.) So I can put the CB ANYWHERE on that CB path and the angle does NOT change. EVER... PERIOD.... When I aim it, the only time that the centers are aligned is when it is a straight in shot.

I hope that clears up the angle question.
 
Johnny "V" said:
....1) look at the top of the object ball and picture a clock face to determine which "hour" you want to send the object ball to. This would be based on lining the centers of the OB and the CB and 6 o'clock being the contact point if you were to shoot straight through the ball.
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This is the root of the problem. You're defining the desired direction of the object ball as an angle measured with respect to a line joining the centers of the CB and OB. This is not the "cut angle" as the term is traditionally used, and more importantly, it is not consistent with the angle used in the next step.

Johnny "V" said:
2) Now forget about lining up the centers of the two balls. (borrowing from PJ's example) Get behind the cueball and move from side to side until the V that is formed between the OB arc and the CB arc intersects at the same hour on the CB as you are looking at it from behind. (this is much easier to see when they are closer together)
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The "V" that's formed here corresponds to the "cut angle" . As you correctly deduced, the intersection of the arcs moves from 12:00 to 3:00 (or 12:00 to 9:00) as the cut angle goes from 0 to 90 degrees. But the "cut angle" is the angle between the OB's desired direction and the CB's pre-impact direction of movement. The latter is different than the line joining the centers of the balls in their resting positions.

When you shoot the CB, you propel it in a direction at some angle with respect to the line joining the centers of the balls. Call this the "approach angle" or "ghostball angle" (Dr. Dave's term). And call the direction of the OB measured with respect to the same line of centers, the "impact angle". The cut angle is then the sum of the impact angle and the approach angle. Your system will always result in too thick of an aiming direction by the size of the approach angle, since it equates the cut angle with the impact angle (ignoring the addition of the approach angle).

Patrick's solution of measuring the OB direction with respect to the CB-Ghostball line of centers, instead of the CB-OB line of centers, eliminates this error. It eliminates it because that is the direction the CB will be shot and you're thus measuring the true cut angle, the one used in step 2. Unfortunately - and I know you wanted to avoid this - we're back to using our imaginations. But I think your system, with Patrick's modification, provides a way of helping to "record" the location of the ghostball, to be used when you get into position to shoot.

Jim
 
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Johnny "V" said:
Let me try to explain this the best I can so as to eliminate the problem with different angles...

1) look at the top of the object ball and picture a clock face to determine which "hour" you want to send the object ball to. This would be based on lining the centers of the OB and the CB and 6 o'clock being the contact point if you were to shoot straight through the ball.

2) Now forget about lining up the centers of the two balls. (borrowing from PJ's example) Get behind the cueball and move from side to side until the V that is formed between the OB arc and the CB arc intersects at the same hour on the CB as you are looking at it from behind. (this is much easier to see when they are closer together)

3) Once you have the path of the cueball determined place your cue behind the cueball and make your shot.

As you can see I am looking straight down the path of where the cueball sits and where it will be when it hits the OB or as everyone refers; The Ghost Ball. (Man I hate using that term because this is not a GB system.) So I can put the CB ANYWHERE on that CB path and the angle does NOT change. EVER... PERIOD.... When I aim it, the only time that the centers are aligned is when it is a straight in shot.

I hope that clears up the angle question.
Click to expand...

You're not getting it, Johnny. The "hour" you choose when you look at the top of the OB is wrong, so even though you line up correctly for that angle it's the wrong one.

The OB is in the wrong place to get the correct angle from it. You have to look at where the CB will be when it contacts the OB and get the correct angle from that.

Think of it this way: you really need to know the "hour" where the CB touches the OB, as viewed from the CB.

pj
chgo
 
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Johnny, I agree with Jim and Patrick, but I don't think you're angles would be far off as long as the CB to OB distance is over about 2 feet. Just include a slight adjustment once the V has been determined. If you're far away go right at it. If you're closer, shoot a bit thinner. If you're very close, scrap it altogether and pray.
 
Wow this is like thinking how big the universe is... And just as frustrating... Let me try another way and see if you disagree still.

Do you agree that; CB Center to Left OB edge will send the object ball on a path of 1 o'clock?

If you agree to the above statement then if I place the CB 1 inch away and aim CB Center to left OB edge and shoot the shot the OB will travel on the 1 o'clock path. If I place it 12 inches away and aim CB Center to left OB edge and shoot the shot the OB will travel that same path. If I put it 100 feet away and was able to shoot like a god and hit the damn OB on the left side with the center of the damn CB that friggin OB is going to travel that friggin 1 o'clock line.

Now if I am moving the cueball along a line that is between the two centers of the the CB and OB then my angle of incidence changes. But as long as I go center to edge it will still travel at the 1 o'clock path
 
Johnny "V" said:
Wow this is like thinking how big the universe is... And just as frustrating... Let me try another way and see if you disagree still.

Do you agree that; CB Center to Left OB edge will send the object ball on a path of 1 o'clock?

If you agree to the above statement then if I place the CB 1 inch away and aim CB Center to left OB edge and shoot the shot the OB will travel on the 1 o'clock path. If I place it 12 inches away and aim CB Center to left OB edge and shoot the shot the OB will travel that same path. If I put it 100 feet away and was able to shoot like a god and hit the damn OB on the left side with the center of the damn CB that friggin OB is going to travel that friggin 1 o'clock line.

Now if I am moving the cueball along a line that is between the two centers of the the CB and OB then my angle of incidence changes. But as long as I go center to edge it will still travel at the 1 o'clock path
Click to expand...

How did you figure out that the correct angle is 30 degrees (1 o'clock)? That's what we're talking about. What if you really should be aiming at 2 o'clock rather than 1 o'clock for this shot? It's not about lining the CB/OB up once you know the angle; it's about choosing the correct angle in the first place.

pj
chgo
 
Johnny "V" said:
Wow this is like thinking how big the universe is... And just as frustrating... Let me try another way and see if you disagree still.

Do you agree that; CB Center to Left OB edge will send the object ball on a path of 1 o'clock?

If you agree to the above statement then if I place the CB 1 inch away and aim CB Center to left OB edge and shoot the shot the OB will travel on the 1 o'clock path. If I place it 12 inches away and aim CB Center to left OB edge and shoot the shot the OB will travel that same path. If I put it 100 feet away and was able to shoot like a god and hit the damn OB on the left side with the center of the damn CB that friggin OB is going to travel that friggin 1 o'clock line.

Now if I am moving the cueball along a line that is between the two centers of the the CB and OB then my angle of incidence changes. But as long as I go center to edge it will still travel at the 1 o'clock path
Click to expand...

Yes. I understand what you're saying. And I agree. But, how do you decide to choose that 1 o'clock "edge"? You have to come to the conclusion that it's a 1 o'clock shot first in order for it to work for all distances. If you're presented with a cue ball, an object ball, and a pocket what is step one? The simplicity of your method comes from not using Patrick's ghost ball adjustment to determine the clock position. And if you don't use the ghost ball, you have to work off of the line from center CB to center OB which changes the angle as you change the OB/CB distance.
 
Patrick Johnson said:
How did you figure out that the correct angle is 30 degrees (1 o'clock)? That's what we're talking about. What if you really should be aiming at 2 o'clock rather than 1 o'clock for this shot? It's not about lining the CB/OB up once you know the angle; it's about choosing the correct angle in the first place.

pj
chgo
Click to expand...

Exactly. Simultaneous posting. Same point though Patrick is more concise.
 
LOL!!!! ARRRRRGH

Ok look at your drawing on post #54. Do you see the blue line between the CB and the Ghost ball Centers? Are you saying that if I put the cueball anywhere on that blue line that the object ball is not going to go at a 45 degree angle? If not then I need to go figure out how to play pool again?!?!

Geez, you guys wake up this morning and say... I need to scramble johnny's brain today... :)
 
Clock system is a very nice system.... you can also use it for shape..too I think. 1' oclock is 7' o'clock after it hit the rail. Little Joe V...tell me the game of pool is all about lines! Can't agree more. Aiming is just one aspect of the game...finding a system to play consistent shape is another. Need to have an all in one package to go system:)). Oh, the third tool...is your mindset during the game!

Regards,
Duc.

Patrick Johnson said:
This is very interesting and original, Johnny. It's a way to measure the amount of CB/OB overlap (like a "fractional overlap" system) with a visual aid (the clock face) that's very familiar to all of us and that also has other benefits.

The familiarity of the clock face is a major benefit because it probably makes visualizing the CB/OB overlaps easier than fractional systems (which divide the balls into fractions that aren't as easy to visualize and align).

It also divides into more easily-visualized divisions than fractional systems. If you count half hour divisions (12:30, 1:00, 1:30, 2:00, 2:30 on the right - 11:30, 11:00, 10:30, 10:00, 9:30 on the left), you have 5 cut angles per side (plus full and thin), which is a generous number for an "approximation" system.

Another plus is that the divisions give OB contact points that are spaced evenly around the equator (something that fractional systems can't do), meaning there are as many thin cuts as full cuts, and I believe the clockface divisions make them pretty easy to visualize too.

Yet another plus (maybe the biggest one) is that the clockface gives a visual representation of the cut angle that is created by the alignment (1 o'clock is 30 degrees from 12 o'clock and also creates a 30-degree cut, 2 o'clock is 60 degrees from 12 o'clock and also creates a 60-degree cut, etc.).

This is the first "reference angle" system that I want to give a try. I'm only sorry I didn't think of it first.

Very cool.

pj
chgo

P.S. And it's nothing like CTE.
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Johnny "V" said:
LOL!!!! ARRRRRGH

Ok look at your drawing on post #54. Do you see the blue line between the CB and the Ghost ball Centers? Are you saying that if I put the cueball anywhere on that blue line that the object ball is not going to go at a 45 degree angle? If not then I need to go figure out how to play pool again?!?!

Geez, you guys wake up this morning and say... I need to scramble johnny's brain today... :)
Click to expand...

Johnny, so you're saying that you want to use the cueball-ghost ball line to decide on your angle? If you're able to do that, why would you complicate things. Just aim the center of the cueball directly at the center of the ghost ball.
The blue line shouldn't exist in your system if your system is going to be useful. It forces a visualization that completely negates the simplicity of your system, if indeed your system is simple, which I wonder about.
 
bluepepper said:
Johnny, so you're saying that you want to use the cueball-ghost ball line to decide on your angle? If you're able to do that, why would you complicate things. Just aim the center of the cueball directly at the center of the ghost ball.
The blue line shouldn't exist in your system if your system is going to be useful. It forces a visualization that completely negates the simplicity of your system, if indeed your system is simple, which I wonder about.
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I only used the GB as a reference for this example. As you get closer your clock face changes but then so does the V as long as you stay on the blue line the path that the OB takes is still the same. Very simple.
 
Who's the first...this is the first time I read it here...but a friend of mine MIO explain this too me months ago and also say it's a shape system. I've been trying to combine what he calls the clock system with Ron V. aiming system. Hasn't been going to good...just too much calculation. Each time I play on a different table...I have to recalculate everything. I remember when I took some lesson from Lit Joe about 4-5 years ago..he tell me to check the table first before I apply the clock system. Some table are short and other are long. Love to hear more about a system that has both aiming and shape component to it.

Regards,
Duc.

Patrick Johnson said:
It's a natural. I wonder why we haven't heard of something like this before...? Could you really be the first?

(Never occurred to me, dammit.)

pj
chgo
Click to expand...
 
Johnny "V" said:
Wow this is like thinking how big the universe is... And just as frustrating... Let me try another way and see if you disagree still.

Do you agree that; CB Center to Left OB edge will send the object ball on a path of 1 o'clock?

If you agree to the above statement then if I place the CB 1 inch away and aim CB Center to left OB edge and shoot the shot the OB will travel on the 1 o'clock path. If I place it 12 inches away and aim CB Center to left OB edge and shoot the shot the OB will travel that same path. If I put it 100 feet away and was able to shoot like a god and hit the damn OB on the left side with the center of the damn CB that friggin OB is going to travel that friggin 1 o'clock line.

Now if I am moving the cueball along a line that is between the two centers of the the CB and OB then my angle of incidence changes. But as long as I go center to edge it will still travel at the 1 o'clock path
Click to expand...
What Jeff and Patrick said.

Jim
 
cuetable said:
Hi Johnny:

I would like to invite you to check out one of our free programs, The Aiming Calculator http://cuetable.com/Software/BilliardAimingCalculator/index.htm . I believe it will help to demonstrate your point. By dragging either CB, OB or Target around the table you can get an instant readout of the aiming data... More features will come later :)
Click to expand...

Wei!! This is awesome application...been using this to outline my shots for practice. Do you have the standalone version?

Regards,
Duc.
 
When i get down over the cueball my eyes either are looking at the quarter of the cueball or the edge of the cueball, but i always address the cueball center with my cue. So here and then i shift my eyes to the objectballs contact point, as i am looking at the cueballs contact point then i shift my eyes to the aim point on the objectball and pause with my practice stroke as this is where i am addressing the cueballs aim point which is the center. I never switch from aim point to contact point on the objectball to the cueball cause i am crossing the lines, if i do switch i always make shure i look at aim point to aim point the contact point to contact point.
 
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