joint pin and glue questions

dakota

dakota

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I am new to cue making and I have a Deluxe cuesmith that I am working with for all my cue building processes currently. I am planning on building my first few plain jane cues so I can start perfecting a taper that I like and try my hand at putting together and finishing some basic cues. So I am getting ready to purchase some joint pins and taps and all that fun stuff and I'm trying to get some opinions or advice from the people that have been there and done that.

My first question is about joint pin selection and any advice on suppliers and any pros and cons. My preference is for Big Pin cues like Southwest, Bender, and my current Barnhart. I like the radial on my Barnhart, but I preferred the tighter pins on Southwest and Bender even more. So I am considering either using a 3/8x11 SW style pin or a 3/8x10 flat .308 minor dia SW style pin. One of the suppliers that I looked at has a 3/8x11 shouldered pin with a small thread 5/16x14 that attaches to the forearm which has me wondering about the advantages of this design? Also I noticed that neither of the shouldered pins that I am looking at have a glue relief notch, and I'm wondering if that is less necessary with shouldered pins versus traditional all thread joint pins? Also any other pin supplier suggestions are always appreciated.

atl_pin.jpg
or .......
prath-pin.jpg

For epoxy, are most people using a 2 ton devcon epoxy at the joint and at the A-joint or is West Systems or BSI more popular as a thinner epoxy?

Thanks in advance for any advice or suggestions.

dakota
 
The SW style is preferred by most . Easy to install with no run out . You will need an extra tap to make into a flat bottom for installation . Whatever you choose , 3/8x11 or 10 threads , both make a strong joint . I 'd go for the 10 threads as it is more common and easily repaired . good luck with your cue making , it's a lot of work ...:eek::rolleyes:
 
I forgot to add that the slower the cure on the epoxy the stronger the bond . I use epoxy designed for gluing steel together . Don't have to worry about failure and seems to enhance the solid feel in the butt . I used to build custom frequency matched sets of golf clubs for the public , and you can imagine the abuse golf clubs take from hackers ... I've already said too much ...:eek::rolleyes::boring2:
 
I usually go with the two ton epoxy for pins. I usually don't put very much epoxy on the pin for fear of hydraulic pressure, but glue relief slots help with this. I too would stick with 3/8 x 10 pins with the .308 minor diameter.

Where did you find the pin with the 5/16x14 bottom half?
 
answer to pin question..

Where did you find the pin with the 5/16x14 bottom half?

I intended to send you a PM to answer this quesiton, but by mistake replied to the post. I will send you a PM with the info.
 
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The glue relief is even more important on the pins with a locating barrel, as it blocks up the glue's escape route. You can, however, just grind a small flat on the barrel with a benchtop grinder. Do not underestimate the power of hydrolic pressure. Generally, a thinner and slower setting epoxy is best for this application, like West 105/20x for example. Less is more . . .
 
glue relief

Mr Hoppe said:
The glue relief is even more important on the pins with a locating barrel, as it blocks up the glue's escape route. You can, however, just grind a small flat on the barrel with a benchtop grinder. Do not underestimate the power of hydrolic pressure. Generally, a thinner and slower setting epoxy is best for this application, like West 105/20x for example. Less is more . . .
Click to expand...

Thank you for your post, I was wondering if that shoulder / locating barrel wouldn't block the glue relief and cause a larger concern with hydrollic pressure and blow out. I really like your suggestion of grinding a glue relief since that would allow you to use a little more glue and make sure that you have glue in the entire cavity without as much concern about a blow out. Does anyone make a pin such as this with a glue relief precut? It seems like for $10 a pin, someone should make one with a glue relief.... or do people disagree on the need for the glue relief?

Thanks again,

dakota
 
dakota said:
snip.... So I am considering either using a 3/8x11 SW style pin or a 3/8x10 flat .308 minor dia SW style pin. ... snip
Click to expand...

What does the " .308 minor dia " mean or refer to? I'm just getting into this cue repair thing, so a lot of terms confuse me.

Thanks
 
I like the 3/8-11 southwest style pin. As far as the pins with an alignment shoulder, I have used them before and if your shoulder is " snug" then only a small amount of glue will hold it. Otherwise you can build hydraulic pressure and shift the pin.

I use west system for my a-joint and 2 ton or thickened west system.
 
dakota said:
I am new to cue making and I have a Deluxe cuesmith that I am working with for all my cue building processes currently. I am planning on building my first few plain jane cues so I can start perfecting a taper that I like and try my hand at putting together and finishing some basic cues. So I am getting ready to purchase some joint pins and taps and all that fun stuff and I'm trying to get some opinions or advice from the people that have been there and done that.

My first question is about joint pin selection and any advice on suppliers and any pros and cons. My preference is for Big Pin cues like Southwest, Bender, and my current Barnhart. I like the radial on my Barnhart, but I preferred the tighter pins on Southwest and Bender even more. So I am considering either using a 3/8x11 SW style pin or a 3/8x10 flat .308 minor dia SW style pin. One of the suppliers that I looked at has a 3/8x11 shouldered pin with a small thread 5/16x14 that attaches to the forearm which has me wondering about the advantages of this design? Also I noticed that neither of the shouldered pins that I am looking at have a glue relief notch, and I'm wondering if that is less necessary with shouldered pins versus traditional all thread joint pins? Also any other pin supplier suggestions are always appreciated.

View attachment 160759
or .......
View attachment 160760

For epoxy, are most people using a 2 ton devcon epoxy at the joint and at the A-joint or is West Systems or BSI more popular as a thinner epoxy?

Thanks in advance for any advice or suggestions.

dakota
Click to expand...

Hi,

It sounds like you have a pretty good understanding of the situation. Here are a few observations I can offer from my experience:

I use a custom fabricated 3/8" x 14 modified pin ( the same type that were used by Omega DPK & Bender ) with a centering barrel of .372. When you bore the joint to fit the barrel contour it is important to leave a little extra room ( about .002 )so that you can dry fit and are able to get the pin out again before the epoxy is applied. You can make a special pin gripping tool that is split and can be tightened around the pin to remove it. Before leaving this extra room on the bore, I had to use the pin gripper to remove it after the dry fit and it was a pain in the ass not to damage a pin. Today I can achieve almost a zero run out on the pin with the little bit of extra bore.

The trick that I have found that works is to use G5 ( a five minute epoxy in the bottom of the hole to make sure that there is no void behind the pin. I use a slower curing Loctite epoxy (24 hour) product that is stronger on the threads and the centering barrel with the relief grind on one side extending down the pin's threads.

Once the pin is inserted and the excess epoxy has been wiped clear, put a precise dial indicator on the nose of the pin and check for run out. I generally see about .002 to .003 run out because of the little extra room I left on the bore for dry insertion and removal before the gluing.

While indicating the pin take a very small piece of masking tape and tape it to the joint collar to mark the high side of the run out. Then take a piece of phenolic rod ( safe so as not to damage the pin ) with a .625 ID and place it over the pin and put a slight downward leverage pressure on the pin, then reindicate. You may have to do this a few times and move the tape to mark the high spot.

The 5 minute epoxy at the bottom will help hold the pin position and when you indicate under .001 total run out the work is done. Using this method I can always indicate under the .001 total run out.

Not having a close to body fit in the bore allows you to test your pin before the epoxy is installed and give you the slight flexibility to tweak the run out. I usually get 1/4 thou per side in about 2 or 3 nudges of the pin. Then just let the cure happen.

Good Luck,

Rick Geschrey


The Omega Style 3/8" x 14 tpi Joint pin pics.. Alignment barrel is .372 and inserting threads are 3/8" x 16 tpi.
P1050975.jpg
 
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scdiveteam said:
Hi,

It sounds like you have a pretty good understanding of the situation. Here are a few observations I can offer from my experience:

I use a custom fabricated 3/8" x 14 modified pin ( the same type that were used by Omega DPK & Bender ) with a centering barrel of .372. When you bore the joint to fit the barrel contour it is important to leave a little extra room ( about .002 )so that you can dry fit and are able to get the pin out again before the epoxy is applied. You can make a special pin gripping tool that is split and can be tightened around the pin to remove it. Before leaving this extra room on the bore, I had to use the pin gripper to remove it after the dry fit and it was a pain in the ass not to damage a pin. Today I can achieve almost a zero run out on the pin with the little bit of extra bore.

The trick that I have found that works is to use G5 ( a five minute epoxy in the bottom of the hole to make sure that there is no void behind the pin. I use a slower curing Loctite epoxy (24 hour) product that is stronger on the threads and the centering barrel with the relief grind on one side extending down the pin's threads.

Once the pin is inserted and the excess epoxy has been wiped clear, put a precise dial indicator on the nose of the pin and check for run out. I generally see about .002 to .003 run out because of the little extra room I left on the bore for dry insertion and removal before the gluing.

While indicating the pin take a very small piece of masking tape and tape it to the joint collar to mark the high side of the run out. Then take a piece of phenolic rod ( safe so as not to damage the pin ) with a .625 ID and place it over the pin and put a slight downward leverage pressure on the pin, then reindicate. You may have to do this a few times and move the tape to mark the high spot.

The 5 minute epoxy at the bottom will help hold the pin position and when you indicate under .001 total run out the work is done. Using this method I can always indicate under the .001 total run out.

Not having a close to body fit in the bore allows you to test your pin before the epoxy is installed and give you the slight flexibility to tweak the run out. I usually get 1/4 thou per side in about 2 or 3 nudges of the pin. Then just let the cure happen.

Good Luck,

Rick Geschrey


The Omega Style 3/8" x 14 tpi Joint pin pics.. Alignment barrel is .372 and inserting threads are 3/8" x 16 tpi.
P1050975.jpg
Click to expand...

Rick,

Thank you very much for the time you put into this post and your explanation. You shared a lot of good information and I really like your choice of joint pin, but I was unaware that anyone other than Mike Bender or Omega DPK used that pin. Is that pin available through a supplier or did you have them custom built?

I appreciate your explanation of your pin install, since you use the two different glues, are you able to use a fair amount of glue so that it fills all voids and that the pin forces out excess glue from the relief grind? This is what what I would like to accomplish if possible in order to know that each pin is really solid and that i have no lose pins and no empty voids or pockets.

Thanks again,

dakota
 
dakota said:
Rick,

Dakota,

Thank you very much for the time you put into this post and your explanation. You shared a lot of good information and I really like your choice of joint pin, but I was unaware that anyone other than Mike Bender or Omega DPK used that pin. Is that pin available through a supplier or did you have them custom built?

I appreciate your explanation of your pin install, since you use the two different glues, are you able to use a fair amount of glue so that it fills all voids and that the pin forces out excess glue from the relief grind? This is what what I would like to accomplish if possible in order to know that each pin is really solid and that i have no lose pins and no empty voids or pockets.

Thanks again,

dakota
Click to expand...

Dakota,

The gap behind the pin gets filled 100% and the annulus around the pin is also filling 100% from the hydraulic effect that forces the material as you screwing the pin.

I had 500 pins custom made 7 years ago by a screw machine shop. I love this pin and would never change.

Rick G
 
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