Joints and ferrules, is there really a difference?

poolguppy

poolguppy

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
So if you have 5 different cues, with phenolic, steel, wood, stag, or ivory joints and ferrules, but otherwise identical in weight and balance, could anyone actually tell a difference in a blindfolded test? My cue is stag joint and ferrule, and ive hit with every different kind, but the only difference i could tell was in the weight and balance of the cue. I have tried a blind folded test to see if i could determine a difference, but before i even hit the cue ball i knew the difference of the cue i was holding because of the weight and balance, not the materials. Is there really a noticeable difference in the hit? I mean when you have a steel joint, but the other 95% of the cue is wood, can you really pick out the feel of the steel joint when there is all that softer wood to absorb the impact? Or is it all aesthetics?
 
poolguppy said:
So if you have 5 different cues, with phenolic, steel, wood, stag, or ivory joints and ferrules, but otherwise identical in weight and balance, could anyone actually tell a difference in a blindfolded test? My cue is stag joint and ferrule, and ive hit with every different kind, but the only difference i could tell was in the weight and balance of the cue. I have tried a blind folded test to see if i could determine a difference, but before i even hit the cue ball i knew the difference of the cue i was holding because of the weight and balance, not the materials. Is there really a noticeable difference in the hit? I mean when you have a steel joint, but the other 95% of the cue is wood, can you really pick out the feel of the steel joint when there is all that softer wood to absorb the impact? Or is it all aesthetics?
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2 parts to that question.. Ferrules absolutely alter a cues play and feel significantly... You can have your ferrule changed and immediately tell a difference going from ivory to juma or vice versa... Other materials may be similar enough that the difference is not noticeable...

As far as joints year ago they taped up joints so you couldn't tell if you were hitting a stainless steel, ivory or phenolic... There may have been more options but I don't recall... No one could id the joint type in a blind test... The thing here to me is that it was totally blind... I have to think that if you swapped the joint materials on my cue that I could tell but that is a test that would be almost impossible to conduct...

The reason I think this is because over the years I have gravitated to big pin flat faced phenolic jointed cues.. I currently have gotten rid of every stainless steel jointed cue I own and I won't even look at a cue that has one anymore...

The joint part of course is my opinion and I know a few cuemakers who would argue otherwise... Bob Jewett had some interesting insight into the force wave transferring from the tip down to the bumper and back up the cue and seemed to agree that some materials would definitely be more dampening than others.....

Chris
 
The Renfro said:
2 parts to that question.. Ferrules absolutely alter a cues play and feel significantly... You can have your ferrule changed and immediately tell a difference going from ivory to juma or vice versa... Other materials may be similar enough that the difference is not noticeable...

As far as joints year ago they taped up joints so you couldn't tell if you were hitting a stainless steel, ivory or phenolic... There may have been more options but I don't recall... No one could id the joint type in a blind test... The thing here to me is that it was totally blind... I have to think that if you swapped the joint materials on my cue that I could tell but that is a test that would be almost impossible to conduct...

The reason I think this is because over the years I have gravitated to big pin flat faced phenolic jointed cues.. I currently have gotten rid of every stainless steel jointed cue I own and I won't even look at a cue that has one anymore...

The joint part of course is my opinion and I know a few cuemakers who would argue otherwise... Bob Jewett had some interesting insight into the force wave transferring from the tip down to the bumper and back up the cue and seemed to agree that some materials would definitely be more dampening than others.....

Chris
Click to expand...

Very well put!!!

I agree with the Big Pins and flat face wood to wood cues as well! Here is a little science video on resonance and what happens when resonance transfers??? Pretty interesting stuff. Keep in mind, the video shows two tuning forks made out of the SAME material I.E. the same wood species. it is theoretically possible to achieve similar results with different materials as long as they "resonate on the same frequency"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBXceaUKTSc

and

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiHOqMOJTH4

and

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=722ev4GqArY


Enjoy

KD
 
You have yet to try the cue with the Unobtanium ferrule and joint material. Once you try that material, you will play like Efren :grin-square::grin-square:
 
poolguppy said:
So if you have 5 different cues, with phenolic, steel, wood, stag, or ivory joints and ferrules, but otherwise identical in weight and balance, could anyone actually tell a difference in a blindfolded test? My cue is stag joint and ferrule, and ive hit with every different kind, but the only difference i could tell was in the weight and balance of the cue. I have tried a blind folded test to see if i could determine a difference, but before i even hit the cue ball i knew the difference of the cue i was holding because of the weight and balance, not the materials. Is there really a noticeable difference in the hit? I mean when you have a steel joint, but the other 95% of the cue is wood, can you really pick out the feel of the steel joint when there is all that softer wood to absorb the impact? Or is it all aesthetics?
Click to expand...

Huge difference, there is no way you could not feel the difference unless you were new to the subtleties of cues. The vibrations travel though each material differently, even if you use the same exact materials but use different construction methods (cored vs non-cored, no wrap vs a wrap, things like that) you can tell the difference.

I put the same shaft on my cue with a wood to wood joint and my son's cue which has a horn joint and can tell his has a stiffer hit with less vibrations and feel going to the handle.

Heck, many people can feel the difference in how different brands of cueballs feel on the tip when using the exact same cue.
 
The Renfro said:
2 parts to that question.. Ferrules absolutely alter a cues play and feel significantly... You can have your ferrule changed and immediately tell a difference going from ivory to juma or vice versa... Other materials may be similar enough that the difference is not noticeable...

As far as joints year(my edit it was yeas ago) ago they taped up joints so you couldn't tell if you were hitting a stainless steel, ivory or phenolic... There may have been more options but I don't recall... No one could id the joint type in a blind test... The thing here to me is that it was totally blind... I have to think that if you swapped the joint materials on my cue that I could tell but that is a test that would be almost impossible to conduct...

The reason I think this is because over the years I have gravitated to big pin flat faced phenolic jointed cues.. I currently have gotten rid of every stainless steel jointed cue I own and I won't even look at a cue that has one anymore...

The joint part of course is my opinion and I know a few cuemakers who would argue otherwise... Bob Jewett had some interesting insight into the force wave transferring from the tip down to the bumper and back up the cue and seemed to agree that some materials would definitely be more dampening than others.....

Chris
Click to expand...

in speaking to dan janes of joss cues he told me about that test done many years ago
with PROS being asked to tell the difference between joints
most could not only not tell what type of joint but couldnt even pick out their own cue!!!!!!!!!!!!!
never saw this done with ferrules though
 
The Renfro said:
...

As far as joints year ago they taped up joints so you couldn't tell if you were hitting a stainless steel, ivory or phenolic... There may have been more options but I don't recall... No one could id the joint type in a blind test... The thing here to me is that it was totally blind... I have to think that if you swapped the joint materials on my cue that I could tell but that is a test that would be almost impossible to conduct...

The reason I think this is because over the years I have gravitated to big pin flat faced phenolic jointed cues.. I currently have gotten rid of every stainless steel jointed cue I own and I won't even look at a cue that has one anymore...
...

Chris
Click to expand...

I agree that differently constructed cues feel different in play. The masking tape experiment underscores how players who have definite opinions about specific technologies are guided by their own preconceptions. There are no absolutes for which technologies are better than others. You have to judge which feel is best for you. Blind A/B comparisons are notoriously bad for judging which choice is best for you over the long haul. Chris appropriately decided over time that he prefers big pin flat faced joints. While I like the feel of well-constructed cues with big pin flat faced joints (I owned a SW for 20+ years), over time, I gravitated to piloted stainless steel (because of the weight and balance).

Over time, you will either grow to appreciate the combined benefits of your cue or you will search out another.
 
Sealegs50 said:
I agree that differently constructed cues feel different in play. The masking tape experiment underscores how players who have definite opinions about specific technologies are guided by their own preconceptions. There are no absolutes for which technologies are better than others. You have to judge which feel is best for you. Blind A/B comparisons are notoriously bad for judging which choice is best for you over the long haul. Chris appropriately decided over time that he prefers big pin flat faced joints. While I like the feel of well-constructed cues with big pin flat faced joints (I owned a SW for 20+ years), over time, I gravitated to piloted stainless steel (because of the weight and balance).

Over time, you will either grow to appreciate the combined benefits of your cue or you will search out another.
Click to expand...

Interesting comment! May I ask, if it was an Ebony forearm or Maple Forearm??? The weight of the wood species varies significantly! Anyway, most Southwest are not cored and they overwhelmingly come in weighting over 19.5 ounces and some come in at 22 ounces. A sub 19.5 ounce southwest is very rare in my opinion.

I have found that the best playing cues have the weight in the HANDLE area. The forward balance folks and I don't see eye to eye!!! LOL

KD
 
Kid Dynomite said:
Interesting comment! May I ask, if it was an Ebony forearm or Maple Forearm??? The weight of the wood species varies significantly! Anyway, most Southwest are not cored and they overwhelmingly come in weighting over 19.5 ounces and some come in at 22 ounces. A sub 19.5 ounce southwest is very rare in my opinion.

I have found that the best playing cues have the weight in the HANDLE area. The forward balance folks and I don't see eye to eye!!! LOL

KD
Click to expand...

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=3978925&postcount=54

Macassar ebony forearm and butt with BEM points. 19.9 oz. cue with 19" balance point (which is relatively far back for my tastes). Shafts were 13.3 mm at the tip. Everything remained straight for 20 years I owned it. I have played with several other SWs, but I never liked one as much as this cue.

Seems that we won't be competing for the same cues. :thumbup:

FYI, I still own the bottom cue.

Greg
 
I spoke with Evan at Schon about 6 months ago. He said they tested different joint materials and found very little change in the feel of the hit with the different joint materials but found a big difference in the hit with differing butt construction techniques. I have also learned not to believe everything you read and hear. It seems the only way to really test this is to try different joint materials on the same cue. Try taking the rubber bumper off of your cue once and see how that changes the feel and sound of the hit, who woulda thunk that would make such a difference being 58" away from the tip?
 
If you can discern a difference, and it improves your game, or your pride of ownership, then yes, it does make a difference.

For the guy who can differentiate between cue ball brands, I have some land in Florida that I'd like to sell you.
 
Some great responses guys! My cue is also a big pin flat faced joint with stag, but my brothers joint and ferrule is wood, and i can tell his has a much softer hit with transferred to my cue and was starting to think there was something to it, and i loved the feel...until I realized his tip is also a soft one and his shaft was slightly lighter (think i will get my turned down a little, its 13mm and i like them 12 or under anyways).
I have an idea though, I will make a small washer out of cereal box cardboard or thick construction paper to put inside the joint between the faces. I'll have some one tape the joint so i cant tell if its in or not, i'll hit a full rack with it in, and out, and see if i can pick out when it was in. heck if it mimics the softer hit i like, maybe i'll just leave it in there. If i cant tell a difference, i'll take the experiment to some other pool buddies and see if anyone can.
 
well that didnt take long, i tried the experiment twice, once with the cardboard washer only, and once with the cardboard plus a couple paper washers, and it wasnt even worth trying to guess. No discernible difference to me whatsoever. So im going to try it again later with different materials. Ideas? maybe try leather, or thin rubber gasket material? cloth?
 
poolguppy said:
well that didnt take long, i tried the experiment twice, once with the cardboard washer only, and once with the cardboard plus a couple paper washers, and it wasnt even worth trying to guess. No discernible difference to me whatsoever. So im going to try it again later with different materials. Ideas? maybe try leather, or thin rubber gasket material? cloth?
Click to expand...

The issue is that once the vibrations get past that thin material, they hit the regular joint material. I'd like trying to make a bulletproof vest useless by putting lace over the front of it. Sure the bullet hits the lace first, but it then gets to the kevlar. If you put a thicker softer material, it would probably do something to the feel by altering what actually gets to the joint material. Plus keep in mind that the feel is also transmitted though the inside of the shaft though the pin connection which goes directly inside the joint.

Interesting idea actually to see how things feel though the joint. I'm going to try it with one of those round felt things you put on the bottom or furniture to keep the floor from getting scratched. Those are probably just the right width and are probably thick enough to have a noticeable effect.
 
hang-the-9 said:
Interesting idea actually to see how things feel though the joint. I'm going to try it with one of those round felt things you put on the bottom or furniture to keep the floor from getting scratched. Those are probably just the right width and are probably thick enough to have a noticeable effect.
Click to expand...

Sounds like a good material to try! So the whole idea of this, is to decide whether joint materials actually make a difference, or its just all the structure of the cue. And i get what you saying about the power being transferred regardless, but that also means the power being transferred to the butt through the joint. Supposedly a softer material joint will absorb more of the power (contract just barely, and absord some joules of energy ), so putting a cushion in between them will mimic a softer joint material because that energy is being absorbed in that area. i think it is just going to be such a minute difference that joint materials are just for whatever look you want. I used a much thicker material this time, a stretchy fabric i cut from an old belt. and i still cant say i can tell a difference with it in. But hey, maybe this means if you have an ivory joint and are worried about it cracking, there wouldnt be a playing issue to put a soft washer out of cloth or leather in between them to help deaden the immediate force between them.
 
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