joss on ebay is this guy full of hot air?

pdcue

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Looks like Cortland to me Dale... More whitish in color with faded green spec. If the spec were darker then id be suspect but thats not the case.. Ideo's may be as well but it looks more like it wouldnt be than the ebay cue...

Cortland linen was not white - it was a very muted off-white - nearly beige.

Dale
 

WildWing

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Cortland linen was not white - it was a very muted off-white - nearly beige.

Dale

Disagree. Here's a picture of new Cortland on a cue. Although photos are tricky, it starts out pretty white with fairly bright but light green specks. Agree with Tim on the fact that the specks can and do fade over time as well.

Different examples of Cortland can look very different, depending on age, exposure to light, exposure to smoke-filled rooms, and whether the wrap was ever cleaned, and what it was cleaned with. In those early days of Joss, Cortland was about all they used. Although this wrap could have been replaced, it appears to have the evenness of spacing of the specks to be Cortland. Obviously ebay photos can be tricky, and it would be more conclusive to have the cue in hand, but growing up with Joss ccues in the 70s, my bet is still that this is Cortland wrap.

All the best,
WW
 

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Gunn_Slinger

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
No Brown bumper ( I thought they were brunswick ), No J O S S on the butt cap ( original
cap would have been made out of Implex...outlawed in the early 80's ), And that ugly trim ring below the wrap matches Nothing!
I have a 1973 JOSS made by Danny and Timmy. I made many trips to the 'Garage" shop in 72 & 73 & 74. Never saw anyone working there but Danny & Timmy.
Looks to me that this cue may have been modified ( that trim ring is SOOO Bad!! ).
Good luck
ps
I know that a few years ago, Old Josses had dropped in value.
An old friend had 5 of them and said they would only bring $900-$1400.
His were mostly ivory joint cues from the early 70's.
Things might have changed ......?
But for a grand, there are Lots better Joss cues to be had!
 

WildWing

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
No Brown bumper ( I thought they were brunswick ), No J O S S on the butt cap ( original
cap would have been made out of Implex...outlawed in the early 80's ), And that ugly trim ring below the wrap matches Nothing!
I have a 1973 JOSS made by Danny and Timmy. I made many trips to the 'Garage" shop in 72 & 73 & 74. Never saw anyone working there but Danny & Timmy.
Looks to me that this cue may have been modified ( that trim ring is SOOO Bad!! ).
Good luck
ps
I know that a few years ago, Old Josses had dropped in value.
An old friend had 5 of them and said they would only bring $900-$1400.
His were mostly ivory joint cues from the early 70's.
Things might have changed ......?
But for a grand, there are Lots better Joss cues to be had!

I mentioned that the bumper had probably been replaced. Joss used the brown KU bumpers until about 1977.

No, the original butt caps were not standard with implex, they were standard with delrin. After some age, this one looks like the standard delrin. They did do implex butt caps when the design inside the buttsleeve had some inlays in it that matched that color.

The ugly trim ring? Yeah, it doesn't really match anything, but that was typical in some of the early Joss cues. Could be a replacement, but not necessarily.

Interesting cue; a lot of people have opinions on it. What the forum's all about.

All the best,
WW
 

skins

Likes to draw
Silver Member
Cortland linen was not white - it was a very muted off-white - nearly beige.

Dale

Cortland was not "beige" at all. It has the appearance of a solid "whitish" wrap from a distance but up clse you'll notice the light green spec...
 

ideologist

I don't never exaggerate
Silver Member
Cortland was not "beige" at all. It has the appearance of a solid "whitish" wrap from a distance but up clse you'll notice the light green spec...

I read that he meant the "white" strands are actually ivory-colored.

And he'd be right. The bright white is probably Penn or another
 

skins

Likes to draw
Silver Member
It says I must spread rep around before giving you more.

Nice try Ide'. Who's the "arrogant" one now?.. I've had/owned/worked many cues with cortland.. It's not even close to beige.. The beige stuff you see is NOT cortland...It's (cortland) characteristics are as I've explained in my reply to Dales post. I never said that it is FOR SURE cortland on that Joss BUT it does sure look like it and way more like it than your example....
 
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skins

Likes to draw
Silver Member
I read that he meant the "white" strands are actually ivory-colored.

And he'd be right. The bright white is probably Penn or another

They are not "ivory" colored either...Actually I'll amend that and say if you want to call white ivory than so be it...
 
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WildWing

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Penn linen had darker green specks than the cue in the ebay photo, if there is still some lingering doubt.
 

pdcue

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Absolutely correct.

All the best,
WW

IMHO - you guys must have been told something was Cortland that was not.

This wrap looks eerily similar to the White w' Green speck produced by Hurlbert
and Blue Mountain in the 80s and 90s

FWIW - Cortland DID in fact make a very white with green line in the 60s and 70s
but it was nylon, not linen.

Dale
 

HereWeGo

♬·¯·♩¸¸♪·¯·♫♬·¯·♩
Silver Member
I have a band new, untouched spool of Cortland #9 All White Irish Linen down in the garage, I will post pictures tomorrow for color reference if anyone is interested. .
 

skins

Likes to draw
Silver Member
IMHO - you guys must have been told something was Cortland that was not.

This wrap looks eerily similar to the White w' Green speck produced by Hurlbert
and Blue Mountain in the 80s and 90s

FWIW - Cortland DID in fact make a very white with green line in the 60s and 70s
but it was nylon, not linen.

Dale

No Dale. "Us guys" werent "told" anything... Cortland is a "whitish linen cord with VERY light green spec" ... As I've stated, owned and worked with a lot of it... Bluee Mountain is not the same neither is Hurlburt. The stuff the Peachauer has is NOT "original" cortland either..The irish linen made today CAN be worked to look like old cortland but there is more green spec so its still easy to tell the difference if you know what to look for...
 

WildWing

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
IMHO - you guys must have been told something was Cortland that was not.

This wrap looks eerily similar to the White w' Green speck produced by Hurlbert
and Blue Mountain in the 80s and 90s

FWIW - Cortland DID in fact make a very white with green line in the 60s and 70s
but it was nylon, not linen.

Dale

To my knowledge, Hurlburt didn't produce a wrap with light green specks that resembled Cortland. Blue Mountain did (and does), but it does not quite have the evenness of the specks in the ebay photo. I assume that's what you're referring to.

I've shown you a picture of new Cortland wrap. You don't have to take my word for it. Jerry Rauenzahn will vouch for it, as it's the first Mosconi tribute cue he did, before all the Bushka contests, etc. He had something like a pound of it; I'm not sure how much of a spool that would be. And no, it's not the nylon/dacron white with green speck that you may be referring to. It's real linen in my photo, in case that's what you're referring to.

The truth is as well, Jerry did mention to me that his spool of Cortland did look whiter than what he saw from the Pechaeurs' when they bought the stock from the company. Jerry mentioned theirs did look somewhat more "yellowed," which indicates that method of storage may have something to do with the appearance of the linen, or its authenticity. Tim Scruggs also told me a similar thing; he had a spool of Cortland that yellowed over time in the 80s as it sat in the shop. So, examples you've seen may have been sitting around a while as they aged, or may not have been authentic.

Bottom line though, when you think Tim (skins) and I don't know Cortland when we see it, you are mistaken. I've been in the hobby since 1970, and Tim's experience in the cue business speaks for itself. Cortland fresh out of the box does start out very white with the light green specks; I can post all the pictures of Jerry -R-'s cue that you want; it's the real stuff. I respect your work, but I don't recall you using Cortland on your cues, but photos would help.

All the best,
WW
 
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skins

Likes to draw
Silver Member
To my knowledge, Hurlbert didn't produce a wrap with light green specks that resembled Cortland. Blue Mountain did (and does), but it does not quite have the evenness of the specks in the ebay photo. I assume that's what you're referring to.

I've shown you a picture of new Cortland wrap. You don't have to take my word for it. Jerry Rauenzahn will vouch for it, as it's the first Mosconi tribute cue he did, before all the Bushka contests, etc. He had something like a pound of it; I'm not sure how much of a spool that would be. And no, it's not the nylon/dacron white with green speck that you may be referring to. It's real linen in my photo, in case that's what you're referring to.

The truth is as well, Jerry did mention to me that his spool of Cortland did look whiter than what he saw from the Pechaeurs' when they bought the stock from the company. Jerry mentioned theirs did look somewhat more "yellowed," which indicates that method of storage may have something to do with the appearance of the linen, even unused. Tim Scruggs also told me the same thing; he had a spool of Cortland that yellowed over time in the 80s as it sat in the shop. So, examples you've seen may have been sitting around a while as they aged.

Bottom line though, when you think Tim (skins) and I don't know Cortland when we see it, you are mistaken. I've been in the hobby since 1970, and Tim's experience in the cue business speaks for itself. Cortland fresh out of the box does start out very white with the light green specks; I can post all the pictures of Jerry -R-'s cue that you want; it's the real stuff. I respect your work, but I don't recall you using Cortland on your cues, but photos would help.

All the best,
WW

Hoot, as I've mentioned which was backed up by a better than good authority, the cortland being sold by Peachauer is not the same "original" cortland as used in the 70's and early 80's. The linen used in the first Mosconi tribute cue can be original but the stock they have now is not. I believe somewhere along the line it was changed after the company was sold and then "sold" as cortland.
 

WildWing

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Hoot, as I've mentioned which was backed up by a better than good authority, the cortland being sold by Peachauer is not the same "original" cortland as used in the 70's and early 80's. The linen used in the first Mosconi tribute cue can be original but the stock they have now is not. I believe somewhere along the line it was changed after the company was sold and then "sold" as cortland.

Makes sense Tim, and probably accounts for the difference between the little bit of Cortland that Jerry Rauenzahn had at one time, and what the Peachauers had, which I thought did not look like Cortland at all.
 

r9ball

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Item was reported to eBay for using false info and Laurie Franklin knows about it. eBay has SW contact info for verification. It seems they are slow to respond or don't care and just hoping to get their fees if someone buys it.
 
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