Judging other players speed. Staying out of bad games.

Drop The Rock

Drop The Rock

1652nd on AZ Money List
Silver Member
Call me a nit but it amazes me to see how many people get out of line in games. Part of the problem is that most guys want to steal instead of gamble, whether its the guy giving up weight or asking for weight. That being said knowing ones own speed in the most honest possible way is really really important. Take me for example, I havent been playing too long and know I can run 1 full rack of 9 ball on a big table every say 6 or so games (need to play 9 ball). However there are a bunch of guys who beat me in 9 ball that can't in one pocket (because I play it a lot). I run balls decent in 1 pocket and know a fair amount of moves and shots. However, I also know that 1 pocket is by far, the EASIEST GAME TO STALL IN. All a guy has to do is play a little aggressive and his opponent will just think he is aggressive lol. So besides asking everybody in the pool room and looking at fundamentals, how do you judge speed?
 
Quiet confidence...a guy who just sits back and lets the action come to him can be scary. If you ask him for more weight all he ever does is say yes, and would you like to raise the bet?

To judge a player's speed all you gotta do is watch position play and safety play. If he's always in line he's not a chump. I look for their weaknesses mostly. Do they have a little dog in them? Do they run down towards the money ball and just find ways to lose? How do they move the rock?

Personally I'll try anybody a set or two and learn how they play. I'm not gonna watch some guy like a peeping Tom to see his game. You won't know how you'll matchup without getting into the box. So many people just crumble when gambling so wartching them practice, play a tournament or some banger isn't going to show you their worst game.
 
A strange player who likes to gamble?
I watch what the cue does on the final stroke...just between his bridge hand and the cue ball....
.....can't hide a good stroke.
Second is....choice of shots.

I've also nailed some hustlers who had hid too long....
...if you hide too long, you've got nothing to hide.

Talent is like an arm or a leg....use it or lose it.
 
pt109 said:
I've also nailed some hustlers who had hid too long....
...if you hide too long, you've got nothing to hide.
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I caught a hustler once. He came into the pool hall and beat a local player named Jack for two sets. Jack was about a decent C level player and he getting some weight but he still could not fade the hustler. When Jack tried to get more weight, the hustler declined the game. Jack offered to back me against the hustler and asked the hustler to give me weight. We settled on more $50 9 ball sets with me getting the 7 or 8 out. I lost the first set and won the next two sets. The hustler wanted to play even after I won two sets and we agreed. I won the next set and the hustler left with his tail between his legs. IMO I caught a gear and the hustler could not get of the stall. Even though my backer still lost a little money that day, it was a victory in my book because I am not a strong player and I realized that day that I can hit a high gear every now and then. :)
 
bazkook said:
I caught a hustler once. He came into the pool hall and beat a local player named Jack for two sets. Jack was about a decent C level player and he getting some weight but he still could not fade the hustler. When Jack tried to get more weight, the hustler declined the game. Jack offered to back me against the hustler and asked the hustler to give me weight. We settled on more $50 9 ball sets with me getting the 7 or 8 out. I lost the first set and won the next two sets. The hustler wanted to play even after I won two sets and we agreed. I won the next set and the hustler left with his tail between his legs. IMO I caught a gear and the hustler could not get of the stall. Even though my backer still lost a little money that day, it was a victory in my book because I am not a strong player and I realized that day that I can hit a high gear every now and then. :)
Click to expand...

I think you may be under rating yourself....
...your game is how well you play when you want to play well.


Good shooting
 
I find this thread interesting. The original poster says that knowing your own speed is the most important thing, then says he can run 1 in 6 racks of 9 ball, but he isn't very good at 9 ball. Many pros don't break and run at a rate of 1 in 6, so something seems off here. Either the OP does not gauge his own ability all that well, or he doesn't know what good at 9ball is.

That being said, I definitely agree that many people overestimate their own games to their own doom, and it is very important to be realistic about your own level.
 
2strong4u said:
Quiet confidence...a guy who just sits back and lets the action come to him can be scary. If you ask him for more weight all he ever does is say yes, and would you like to raise the bet?

To judge a player's speed all you gotta do is watch position play and safety play. If he's always in line he's not a chump. I look for their weaknesses mostly. Do they have a little dog in them? Do they run down towards the money ball and just find ways to lose? How do they move the rock?

Personally I'll try anybody a set or two and learn how they play. I'm not gonna watch some guy like a peeping Tom to see his game. You won't know how you'll matchup without getting into the box. So many people just crumble when gambling so wartching them practice, play a tournament or some banger isn't going to show you their worst game.
Click to expand...
This is well said and pretty much what I do. I will play anybody in the world two sets at $50 a piece. It's enough to make you try but not too much to find out how you match up against someone.
 
mantis99 said:
I find this thread interesting. The original poster says that knowing your own speed is the most important thing, then says he can run 1 in 6 racks of 9 ball, but he isn't very good at 9 ball. Many pros don't break and run at a rate of 1 in 6, so something seems off here. Either the OP does not gauge his own ability all that well, or he doesn't know what good at 9ball is.

That being said, I definitely agree that many people overestimate their own games to their own doom, and it is very important to be realistic about your own level.
Click to expand...

I should clarify that thats with ball in hand after the break lol! I play a lot of one pocket and am really just inexperienced in 9 ball. On small tables I can break and run probably every 5-6 without ball in hand, but I'm still learning the game. My cueball control is starting to get pretty good and I'm now understanding how to play shape properly, staying on the right side etc. but in terms of whatever my level it is, most guys can beat me at 9 ball and its close sometimes but I spank them playing one pocket.

The REAL test of this is in One Pocket. Shot decisions can be part of a stall, missing pocket speed can be part of it, selling out dead-balls and other things can be part of it. One Pocket is the easiest game to stall in and the easiest to suck people in.
 
Drop The Rock said:
Call me a nit but it amazes me to see how many people get out of line in games. Part of the problem is that most guys want to steal instead of gamble, whether its the guy giving up weight or asking for weight. That being said knowing ones own speed in the most honest possible way is really really important. Take me for example, I havent been playing too long and know I can run 1 full rack of 9 ball on a big table every say 6 or so games (need to play 9 ball). However there are a bunch of guys who beat me in 9 ball that can't in one pocket (because I play it a lot). I run balls decent in 1 pocket and know a fair amount of moves and shots. However, I also know that 1 pocket is by far, the EASIEST GAME TO STALL IN. All a guy has to do is play a little aggressive and his opponent will just think he is aggressive lol. So besides asking everybody in the pool room and looking at fundamentals, how do you judge speed?
Click to expand...

If I am watching a guy, I am not watching the balls, I am watching him. Good players have a certain hand eye coordination that takes years to develop. It is also hard to hide, I don't care if he is hitting balls into the rail. You can look at some guys and you just say to your self,
"This guy looks like he can play".

The next step is an honest evaluation of your own game. At a point, as you become a better player it requires a certain level of player to beat you, A lot of players that used to be your competition no longer are.

Even if a guy you see plays very well, that does not mean you can't beat him. You have to be able to say to yourself. " I know how good he has to play to beat me". You can't win if you never risk losing.

There are times the only person in the place who thinks you are going to win is you. Don't ask me how you just know, you can feel it. You just see or feel something that tells you you can win.

This is not false confidence, it is based on experience from all the players you have played in the past. But even if you are wrong and you should lose and trust me it will happen, no one is going to kill you. It's just a pool game and you go home with a few less dollars in your pocket and a little more experience.
 
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macguy said:
If I am watching a guy, I am not watching the balls, I am watching him. Good players have a certain hand eye coordination that takes years to develop. It is also hard to hide, I don't care if he is hitting balls into the rail. You can look at some guys and you just say to your self,
"This guy looks like he can play".

The next step is an honest evaluation of your own game. At a point, as you become a better player it requires a certain level of player to beat you, A lot of players that used to be your competition no longer are.

Even if a guy you see plays very well, that does not mean you can't beat him. You have to be able to say to yourself. " I know how good he has to play to beat me". You can't win if you never risk losing.

There are times the only person in the place who thinks you are going to win is you. Don't ask me how you just know, you can feel it. You just see or feel something that tells you you can win.

This is not false confidence, it is based on experience from all the players you have played in the past. But even if you are wrong and you should lose and trust me it will happen, no one is going to kill you. It's just a pool game and you go home with a few less dollars in your pocket and a little more experience.
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You have to get out there and play it's true. I've always looked at pool and sports as a journey to gain the highest mastery possible.

Problem is you got guys that see this and all they know how to do is look for more and more weight. Sure it's fun getting the cash giving the 7 out and a game. I'd just like to see players get a heart transplant and bet a little.

I can play pool without ever leaving the house. When I go out, it's to play for something. Like you I'll play King Kong a couple sets, you always learn something.
 
pt109 said:
I think you may be under rating yourself....
...your game is how well you play when you want to play well.


Good shooting
Click to expand...

I have always thought how you think, especially since I quit playing so much and my game is very inconsistent lately. Some days I shoot lights out most days I struggle to run a rack of 9 ball on a bar table. I know that I can shoot much better because I have been in a high gear in the past and know my potential. It is very frustrating to say the least. :(
 
Some indicators are
How many tough shot does he take?
Does he turn the table over by errors often?

But a good player can hide it all, if he wants.
 
I have had plenty of experience playing and matching up

Watching someone else never helped me,everyone looks like they play better
than i do

If I know how they play v some one I know,then I figure from there

If they start winning every game,I adjust,and adjust until i figure I can win

Then I offer to bet more

I usually pay off and go home after this

I hope this helps.
 
95% of players I've seen in 40+ years overrate their game, most by a lot.
They rate their game on the best pool they have ever played.
They dont understand about playing in their class, below their class
( were they will play better ) or above their class ( where they will play worse ).
Hustlin is a lost art today. Dont worry about gettin hustled, you will hustle yourself.
If you do run into a REAL hustler, you wont know it till its too late.
Hustlin isn't about playin better pool, its about people management.
A real hustler will beat you and make you like him.
You will still think you can win when he leaves, you just played bad.
He will tell you how good you play and how he got 'lucky'.
Of course, theses hustlers are dead or writing books like 'cotton'.
 
bazkook said:
I have always thought how you think, especially since I quit playing so much and my game is very inconsistent lately. Some days I shoot lights out most days I struggle to run a rack of 9 ball on a bar table. I know that I can shoot much better because I have been in a high gear in the past and know my potential. It is very frustrating to say the least. :(
Click to expand...

I bet most of the shots you mess up are the easy ones.
Back when I played my best, I vowed to make every easy shot and my game improved to the point it became simple.
 
Not really relevant but a great quote from willi Mosconi's book " Willies game " he said that he would watch a guy practice for an hour, if the guy missed a shot he knew he could beat him.
 
tommyhill said:
Not really relevant but a great quote from willi Mosconi's book " Willies game " he said that he would watch a guy practice for an hour, if the guy missed a shot he knew he could beat him.
Click to expand...

Which one are you in this story?
 
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