Jump sticks have changed the game

[The_JV]

Wow. So why not then simply end the turn when the shot is blocked? Why the need for extra penalties?

You have never seen kick shots where the object ball goes in? I mean I don't understand the difference in utilizing a simple kicking system and using a jump cue. I can teach anyone here how to kick consistently and their make percentage will go way up. Their hit percentage will skyrocket. And so then will the number of fortunate results after the kick.

Why should a player be thought of as more skilled when they get a lucky roll off of a kick than if they made a deliberate controlled jump shot?

We all want to see run out pool.

A jump shot is harder than a regular shot.

Why do we pretend that it isn't and seek to layer on punishments for not playing perfect all the time? Hooking yourself is bad enough without telling a player he can't use a legal cue to attempt to recover.

The applied logic in threads free falls when you show up... At least you're consistent across various topics.

A player should be thought of as more skilled when they don't screw up shape play. The opponent should be rewarded when the shooter screws up. If you believe that hopping the edge of an obstruction increases the difficulty beyond a couple of percentage points, then you're no where near the level you believe you are at jumping.

I won't be so bold as you have been so I won't say "we all". However since you're speaking for me, I will correct you. I don't want to see run out pool. That's why the game is boring to watch. I want to see players screw up. I want to see players scramble. I want to see players actually regret their mistakes. ....and I do want to see jump sticks in the game.

 

[garczar]

I suppose we could ban them. While we are at it, if you really want purist pool, we can ban.....
Carbon fiber shafts. .
Low deflection shafts...
Phenolic tips...
Layered tips...
Speciality chalk...
Pool cue extensions...
Billiard gloves...
Magic racks...

And Worsted cloth didnt exist in the purist days either. Ban it. It plays too fast. It warps the game. Go back to slow rolling nappy wool.
Can anybody add more to the list?

And while we are at it... make fouling on purpose desirable again. Foul on purpose and make incoming player shoot from the kitchen. Yep.... bar rules. Let's ban 8 ball, 9 ball, 10 ball, one pocket, bank pool, and all the rest. I mean since straight pool is a real test.

How about doing away with masse shots? I don't know about you, but I think a well-executed masse shot is one of the most beautiful shots in pool. But, if you make a bad position shot and hook yourself, maybe you shouldn't be allowed to masse either.

Or, how about we do this....
Allow jump cues in certain tournaments, disallowing them in others. Then you have the choice of going to it, or not. Every tournament director would be allowed to set up their tournament with their rules. Uhhh.... like we are doing it now.

Paul... what if someone came into your establishment and said you must allow jumping and jump cues? Its exactly the same telling someone that they cant.

Pool is going to progress, (or regress according to you), with you or without you. What will happen is a person will be dried up relics left in the dust.

What's wrong with keeping it fresh and interesting with some variety? I play APA, (no jump cues) and BCA, (jump cues allowed) and some Texas Express tournaments. I accept those rules going in and enjoy all 3

Actually worsted wool did exist it just wasn't being imported. Simonis worsted was around before WW2 but it wasn't til mid/late 80's that you started seeing it in the States again. The years of no-worsted were the 'slow years' of nappy/heavy slow cloth.

 

[Cuedup]

I don't want to see run out pool. That's why the game is boring to watch. I want to see players screw up. I want to see players scramble.

Recovery pool is the best pool. Thats where you see multiple banks, amazing cuts , jumps and sketchy combos.
Watching a shot maker who's position play isn't all that great is the kind of pool I like to watch.

 

[buckshotshoey]

Actually worsted wool did exist it just wasn't being imported. Simonis worsted was around before WW2 but it wasn't til mid/late 80's that you started seeing it in the States again. The years of no-worsted were the 'slow years' of nappy/heavy slow cloth.

Worsted wool has been around for a long long time. I just am not sure when it was used for billiard cloth.

Anyhow, I was more trying to make the point that this game will evolve.... whether you want it to or not. BTW.... just to be clear I do like playing on Worsted cloth. And it doesnt even have to be Simonis.
OMG, I'm going to get my fingers chopped off for typing that!

I have Championship Worsted Ultra on my table and LOVE it.

 

[garczar]

Worsted cloth has been around for a long long time. I just am not sure when it was used for billiard cloth.

Anyhow, I was more trying to make the point that this game will evolve.... whether you want it to or not. BTW.... just to be clear I do like playing on Worsted cloth. And it doesnt even have to be Simonis.
OMG, I'm going to get my fingers chopped off for typing that!

I have Championship Worsted Ultra on my table and LOVE it.

It was around in the 30's-40's. Simonis' mill got destroyed during the war and it took a few years and a merger with another company to bring it back.

 

[buckshotshoey]

Back to the original intent of the thread.... Yes, jump sticks have changed the game. My opinion, I don't think it's for the worse.

But, it's just opinion. My opinion may not be right for you... And vice versa.

If Paul, or anybody else, wants to run their tournament with no jump sticks, and two foul push out, that's their prerogative... That's their choice. More power to them. If I was closer to him, I would gladly play in any of his tournaments. Remember just because I advocate using jump cues does not mean I do not know how to kick.

It all about variety to me. Its about choices. I just don't think that any one man's opinion should dictate how the rest of us play the game.

Oh.... and how about the ugly ass ball colors in the new Aramith Tournament sets? Tar and feather the one came up with THAT scheme!

 

[The_JV]

If Paul, or anybody else, wants to run their tournament with no jump sticks, and two foul push out, that's their prerogative... That's their choice. More power to them. If I was closer to him, I would gladly play in any of his tournaments.

Exactly.... I gladly play in "no jump" tournaments. I'd even do the two foul push out just for the experience of it.

Remember just because I advocate using jump cues does not mean I do not know how to kick.

What a crazy thought... you mean there are people with multiple skill sets that can see and play on both sides of this argument...?

On a side note. I've been one of the guys running with the pro jump stick torch in all of these debates, but merely because I happen to think Stu's idea of the "first trip only" rule is a good one, I'm now being barked at like I'm anti-jump. Some people need to take a step back, take a breath (whether that be through their nose or mouth) and get themselves up to speed on this conversation before posting.

 

[JB Cases]

The applied logic in threads free falls when you show up... At least you're consistent across various topics.

A player should be thought of as more skilled when they don't screw up shape play. The opponent should be rewarded when the shooter screws up. If you believe that hopping the edge of an obstruction increases the difficulty beyond a couple of percentage points, then you're no where near the level you believe you are at jumping.

I won't be so bold as you have been so I won't say "we all". However since you're speaking for me, I will correct you. I don't want to see run out pool. That's why the game is boring to watch. I want to see players screw up. I want to see players scramble. I want to see players actually regret their mistakes. ....and I do want to see jump sticks in the game.

Ok so please let me know where to find videos of perfect players who never get hooked.

What I meant by run out is we want to see players bring it and recovering from unfortunate position is bringing it.

Any time you want to do jump shot challenges for money we can do it. I am confident that I know more about this than you and can easily prove it. You would have zero chance and would look foolish in the process.

Since you say jumping only increases the difficulty by a few percentage points here is what I propose for $100+ per shot.

I will let a Fargo 500 speed shoot 100 shots with ten attempts per shot. The pocketing percentage for each shot will be tallied, if 8 shots are made out of ten we will call that 80%. You then have to shoot the same shots with a blocking ball at 12" from the object ball. An easy obstacle to clear from that distance with a modern jump cue.

Since you say the difficulty is increased by only a few points I will spot you a shot off of my player's results. So for example, when my player makes 7 you only need to make six to tie and win the shot.

Every shot you win is $100 to you and every shot we win is $100 to me. At the end of 100 shots we will settle up and compare stats. If you are correct, being at shortstop level which I presume you are at based on your posts, you should easily win this challenge against a much lower rated player.

For the purpose of the challenge the shots chosen will be relatively "easy" without a blocking ball. No gimmicks to win the bet. These are the shots where anyone decently proficient at jumping ought to be able to handle with a comfortable stance.

We can do this for the charity of the winner's choice. I predict that no one in this thread wants to take this challenge. Probably because logically they know that the shot difficulty increases by more than a few percentage points when a blocking ball is in the way.

 

[David in FL]

Ok so please let me know where to find videos of perfect players who never get hooked.

What I meant by run out is we want to see players bring it and recovering from unfortunate position is bringing it.

Any time you want to do jump shot challenges for money we can do it. I am confident that I know more about this than you and can easily prove it. You would have zero chance and would look foolish in the process.

Since you say jumping only increases the difficulty by a few percentage points here is what I propose for $100+ per shot.

I will let a Fargo 500 speed shoot 100 shots with ten attempts per shot. The pocketing percentage for each shot will be tallied, if 8 shots are made out of ten we will call that 80%. You then have to shoot the same shots with a blocking ball at 12" from the object ball. An easy obstacle to clear from that distance with a modern jump cue.

Since you say the difficulty is increased by only a few points I will spot you a shot off of my player's results. So for example, when my player makes 7 you only need to make six to tie and win the shot.

Every shot you win is $100 to you and every shot we win is $100 to me. At the end of 100 shots we will settle up and compare stats. If you are correct, being at shortstop level which I presume you are at based on your posts, you should easily win this challenge against a much lower rated player.

For the purpose of the challenge the shots chosen will be relatively "easy" without a blocking ball. No gimmicks to win the bet. These are the shots where anyone decently proficient at jumping ought to be able to handle with a comfortable stance.

We can do this for the charity of the winner's choice. I predict that no one in this thread wants to take this challenge. Probably because logically they know that the shot difficulty increases by more than a few percentage points when a blocking ball is in the way.

I bet you would win with a 400 Fargo. I‘d take the same bet kicking.

There’s a price to pay for hooking yourself, as there should be, but needn’t be an inextricable death sentence. A good, albeit challenging recovery should be an option and should be rewarded too...

 

[The_JV]

Ok so please let me know where to find videos of perfect players who never get hooked.

What I meant by run out is we want to see players bring it and recovering from unfortunate position is bringing it.

Any time you want to do jump shot challenges for money we can do it. I am confident that I know more about this than you and can easily prove it. You would have zero chance and would look foolish in the process.

Since you say jumping only increases the difficulty by a few percentage points here is what I propose for $100+ per shot.

I will let a Fargo 500 speed shoot 100 shots with ten attempts per shot. The pocketing percentage for each shot will be tallied, if 8 shots are made out of ten we will call that 80%. You then have to shoot the same shots with a blocking ball at 12" from the object ball. An easy obstacle to clear from that distance with a modern jump cue.

Since you say the difficulty is increased by only a few points I will spot you a shot off of my player's results. So for example, when my player makes 7 you only need to make six to tie and win the shot.

Every shot you win is $100 to you and every shot we win is $100 to me. At the end of 100 shots we will settle up and compare stats. If you are correct, being at shortstop level which I presume you are at based on your posts, you should easily win this challenge against a much lower rated player.

For the purpose of the challenge the shots chosen will be relatively "easy" without a blocking ball. No gimmicks to win the bet. These are the shots where anyone decently proficient at jumping ought to be able to handle with a comfortable stance.

We can do this for the charity of the winner's choice. I predict that no one in this thread wants to take this challenge. Probably because logically they know that the shot difficulty increases by more than a few percentage points when a blocking ball is in the way.

Must have painted you into a corner. Stopped really paying attention once you pull out the "wanna bet" card...lol So typical of you.

...and also stretching what I posted to suit your narrative. What I said was that when blocked by the edge of a obstruction it's extremely easy to clear with a jump cue, and only raises the difficulty by a few percentage points.

Here's what we'll do. I'll call your typical "wanna bet" bs. However I use a POS falcon jump/break which limits my short range ability to clear obstructions. (If you had read the entire thread you would have known that already). You either get a replica of my jumper into anyone's hands, or you equip me with the jump stick of your choice and give me a day to get accustomed to it, and we'll do you challenge. No need for a handicap in my favour. If I damage the jump stick you provide me, I'll pay for it.

 

[Paul Schofield]

Agreed. It warps the game.

I will be clearer. One-Foul warps the game. To avoid ball-in-hand, often a player has to jump over a ball, masse', or shoot at the nose of a rail. We certainly can do better than this. We don't need to go to Push-Out either. Push-out is not functional for tournament play. I will say it again: Masse' shots and jump cues are brutal on equipment. One-Foul rules increase both.

With One-Foul, there is too much incentive to play safe and the penalty is too punishing for the bad hit.

 

[The_JV]

I will be clearer. One-Foul warps the game. To avoid ball-in-hand, often a player has to jump over a ball, masse', or shoot at the nose of a rail. We certainly can do better than this. We don't need to go to Push-Out either. Push-out is not functional for tournament play. I will say it again: Masse' shots and jump cues are brutal on equipment. One-Foul rules increase both.

With One-Foul, there is too much incentive to play safe and the penalty is too punishing for the bad hit.

So would the suggestion be to go to the Two-Foul version of the game...?

How long could a single race to say 5 take using the Two-Foul rules...?

 

[Paul Schofield]

So would the suggestion be to go to the Two-Foul version of the game...?

How long could a single race to say 5 take using the Two-Foul rules...?

Like I said, I don’t think that Two-Shot Push-Out is an option for tournament play.

 

[garczar]

So would the suggestion be to go to the Two-Foul version of the game...?

How long could a single race to say 5 take using the Two-Foul rules...?

Probably take less time. 2-shot went pretty quick. If there was a lot of pushing(not often) a match might take longer. Problem was tournament play was slower because more people rolled-out/played safe. Gambling sets went fairly fast. You just have to play it some. Two-foul is never coming back and its too bad. Better way to play imo and WAY more fun.

 

[garczar]

Like I said, I don’t think that Two-Shot Push-Out is an option for tournament play.

I agree. 2-shot in tournaments could slow things down. Its the only reason one-foul exists.

 

[Paul Schofield]

I agree. 2-shot in tournaments could slow things down. Its the only reason one-foul exists.

Maybe. That certainly was true years ago. With players choosing to duck more often, the game may have slowed.

I am going to check something. I played a fellow 5 races to 6 a couple of weeks ago playing Two-Shot Push-Out. I will check my security cameras and see how long we played. I have score sheets so I can easily tell how many racks we played. The next time we play, we have agreed to play One-Foul. I will compare times.

 

[L.S. Dennis]

What is the purest form? Because 150 years ago or so they played with things called maces, basically long clubs.

Or maybe just play without chalk?

There is no purest form in pocket billiards because the sport contains a multitude of table sizes and configurations and many different games. 9 ball and one pocket are relatively recent games. I don't think that there is a game in the rule books now that is played the same way it was in 1900.

For me it goes like this, as long as the shooter controls the shot by his own physical actions and the equipment is not moving on its own and doesn't damage the other equipment then I think it should be allowed.

For example if jump cues had been introduced and accepted in 1920 then I believe that no player today would be against them in any fashion.

You made my point exactly, jump cues were not introduced in 1920 and people hit the balls with cue sticks not maces on constructed billiard table not hit with maces on some lawn patch. Sorry for the dissagreement.

 

[JB Cases]

Must have painted you into a corner. Stopped really paying attention once you pull out the "wanna bet" card...lol So typical of you.

...and also stretching what I posted to suit your narrative. What I said was that when blocked by the edge of a obstruction it's extremely easy to clear with a jump cue, and only raises the difficulty by a few percentage points.

Here's what we'll do. I'll call your typical "wanna bet" bs. However I use a POS falcon jump/break which limits my short range ability to clear obstructions. (If you had read the entire thread you would have known that already). You either get a replica of my jumper into anyone's hands, or you equip me with the jump stick of your choice and give me a day to get accustomed to it, and we'll do you challenge. No need for a handicap in my favour. If I damage the jump stick you provide me, I'll pay for it.

Ok, what jump cue do you want. My player isn't doing jump shots.

I never said anything about jumping the edge of the ball in the context of this thread. You responded to my comment about jump shots being significantly more difficult than a direct shot by claiming that not only do I lack logic but jumping over an edge only raises the difficulty by a few percent. If that was your point that clearing a small sliver of the blocking ball then duh, such a comment isn't even relevant at this point.

Yeah I said bet because it is an indication that I am making a point which I am willing to invest in. I don't like empty assertions. Painted me into a corner in what way?

My point remains that in no other aspect of this sport do we seek to punish players for using the state of the art equipment. All rule proposals that disallow jump cues if a player hooks himself are just absurdly punitive.

Modern jump cues have been with us for about 25 years now. I wonder if people debated whether chalk was a cheater gimmick or not for a quarter-century after it was introduced.

I really think it's time for people to let it go.

 

[bbb]

I haven't read 13 pages of posts
but if you cant kick to hit your ball
you need to learn how
jmho
icbw

 

[buckshotshoey]

I haven't read 13 pages of posts
but if you cant kick to hit your ball
you need to learn how
jmho
icbw

I'll say it again for your benefit. Just because I condone using jump cues, dont think I cant kick. I'm actually better at kicking, but sometimes a jump is the right shot.