Jumping and follow through? Need opinions from instructors.

mikepage said:
I'm not really an expert on this, but that doesn't have to stop me ;-)

On a jump shot it's more about your perception of what you're doing than what the cue actually does. So yes, you should stroke intent on following through.

You will not "pin" the ball by following through. On those shots where you DO pin (double-hit) the cueball and it scoots out with no jumping action, you would have had that problem even if you tried to yank the stick back.

I think when players attempt to NOT follow through, what they actually accomplish is they mess up their stroke (tip placement and speed) just when it really matters.

I think it's best to concentrate on a good follow through--that is, do your stroke imagining you're driving the tip right through the ball to the cloth. My experience is when people can't jump very well, telling them to follow through leads to immediate improvement.

Randy? John?
Click to expand...


TAP TAP!

By the way, thank you for your half ball hit Gem about the distance traveled being the same. I played two safeties last night with that in my mind and nailed them both.

Yes, when I teach the jump shot I tell my students to follow through as if they are going to go through the table. I tell them to treat it as they would any other shot and follow through as much or as little as is needed for the speed and spin they want to apply to the cueball.

A lot of players are too tentative because they are afraid of hitting the table with the tip. But in fact, the tip does not touch the table even on a full follow through.

What it does is move forward towards the direction of travel of the cue ball with the tip seeming to glide just above the surface and then it comes back the same way and up.

I had an excellent video from my Bunjee Jumper days that showed this clearly. I have lost a lot of good video from that time. Well, I have a camera, just need to find time.....
 
mnorwood said:
On page 241 of your book you say not to drive the cue through the ball with a firm grip. What do you mean? You also say the cue should rebound away from the cue ball to avoid interference with the motion of the cue ball. That doesn't sound like follow through to me. Please explain?
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I have to admit that those statements are not very complete or clear. The following video has more detail and shows various jump shots in super slow motion so you can actually see what happens in different cases:


I also have more info and advice here:


Regards,
Dave
 
mnorwood said:
Should you follow completely through on a jump shot? I have been taught that follow through pens the cue ball to the table. I would like to hear instructors weigh in on this question.
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Notice the chalk marks on the cloth. The way Tom says it is, "you want to go right through the ball."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhRdDcKlyZo&feature=related

I've heard others talk of a throwing motion.

Trying to yank the cue back sounds like a bad idea to me.
 
mikepage said:
Notice the chalk marks on the cloth. The way Tom says it is, "you want to go right through the ball."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhRdDcKlyZo&feature=related

I've heard others talk of a throwing motion.

Trying to yank the cue back sounds like a bad idea to me.
Click to expand...
I plan on revising the video to include this viewpoint. I find it curious that no printed source that I can think of teaches to follow all the way through the cue ball not even dave's book. Most players and instructors always speak of a popping motion that implies not following through.
 
Ralf is not properly explaining what is happening. The tip does not ever "stay too long" on the cue ball.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxzNT5_Fc20

Think of a jump shot as any other shot. The difference is that this time you are approaching the ball from an elevated angle.

The center of the cue ball on the outer edge or a better way to say it - the equator - is now at an angle to bed of the table instead of roughly parallel to it. Now to clear a blocking ball the MINIMUM angle you need IS the angle that represents the lowest clear path over the blocking ball.

The closer the two balls the sharper or steeper this angle will be.

The second thing you will need to know is how much force to apply. There is also a minimum amount that is needed and is learned through practice. Force is used to land the cue ball closer or farther from the blocking ball. In this way you can very precisely place the cue ball on a jump shot.

When you approach the shot you should approach it with center ball - no matter what your angle of aproach is. When you are looking down at the ball divide it into two halves and the diving line is the center.

Now, you can point the cue tip a little below center and give the cue ball reverse or back spin, or you can go a litle above center and give the cue ball forward or follow. You can also add any other side spin that you wish to from this point.

Now, whether using the dart stroke or the pendulum stroke you want to shoot the shot as you would any other with a smooth stroke and follow through. You will quickly find out the minimum force you need to make the cue ball jump over the object ball.

Things to be careful of are excess movement.

These are common mistakes that derail an otherwise perfect set up.

1. When using the pendulum stroke you lunge forward. This cause the tip to dip below where you were pointing it and leads to miscues.

2. When using the pendulum stroke you push you hand down on the final stroke which lifts the tip up.

3. You pull your hand into or away from your body on the final stroke which again pulls the tip off the point you were targeting.

4. You grip the cue with your fingers overlapping the top and thus inhibit a full stroke. This causes the stroke to be too short and causes the stroke to be distorted as well.

5. On the dart stroke you pull you hand down on the final stroke or lunge forward - both of these actions will pull the tip off line.

Basically you need to see the bridge as a fulcrum point. If you are at the proper point to address the cueball then any other movement will pull the tip off the point you are aiming at anf while you may achieve the jumping portion of the shot it's quite likely that you won't achieve the precision placement or desired result.

90% of the problems with jumping balls is due to a faulty stroke, not following through and not stroking straight on the delivery. The other 10% are due to not fully understanding which angle and force to use.

It is a VAST misconception that one cannot control the cueball on a jump shot. It is a commonly taught idea that hitting the object ball is the goal.

It is not. The goal is to shoot the cue ball in a controlled manner in order to achieve a precise (as precise as possible) result. This is the same as any other shot.

Mnorwood, your video reinforces this assertion that making the cueball jump and hitting the ball is enough. The rather forceful admonition against following through will hamper rather than facilitate success on this shot.

And success is defined by me as controlling the cue ball not just whacking and hoping.

I always start my demonstrations by telling everyone that the jump cue is not a magic wand. It is a cue stick with one special property that used properly will facilitate and expand one's range of jump shots. Used improperly it will cause a lot of games to be lost through cue ball fouls and giving up the table with easy shots for the opponent.

I teach precision jumping starting with a proper stroke foundation.
 
mnorwood said:
I plan on revising the video to include this viewpoint. I find it curious that no printed source that I can think of teaches to follow all the way through the cue ball not even dave's book. Most players and instructors always speak of a popping motion that implies not following through.
Click to expand...

I think that this is because there isn't a lot in print on this subject. You can describe it a popping motion or a punch stroke. The thing is that there are multiple strokes you can use to make the ball hop.

On a regular shot with a regular cue you can also apply draw using a short punch stroke or a longer follow through. It depends on what you need and in fact most of us use different strokes for different results.

Part of the problem is also that people try to describe what goes right rather than what can go wrong.

I used to teach jumping based ENTIRELY on what I did right. In other words I would say do this, and then expect the student to duplicate what I did and how could they not "get it"!!!

One day I had an epiphany. I noticed that the student was doing something wrong and it immediately came to me HOW to explain it so that they could see what they were doing wrong in a way that they could understand. The realization was that I had to explain cause and effect. They had to be show WHY doing it this way produces poor results and why doing it the other way produces proper results.

Since I learned how to teach in this manner I have never had a problem to teach jumping to anyone. I regularly improve the jumping skills of people who are already fairly proficient in this way as well.

Since that time I have thought a lot about cause and effect as pertains to jumping balls. That has given me a much better understanding of what is actually happening and how to explain it. You won't find much of this in published works. Curiously, authors tend not to devote much space to jumping, whether using a jump cue or not. Thus it is easy to see why the information that is there is incomplete.
 
mikepage said:
I'm not really an expert on this, but that doesn't have to stop me ;-)

On a jump shot it's more about your perception of what you're doing than what the cue actually does. So yes, you should stroke intent on following through.

You will not "pin" the ball by following through. On those shots where you DO pin (double-hit) the cueball and it scoots out with no jumping action, you would have had that problem even if you tried to yank the stick back.

I think when players attempt to NOT follow through, what they actually accomplish is they mess up their stroke (tip placement and speed) just when it really matters.

I think it's best to concentrate on a good follow through--that is, do your stroke imagining you're driving the tip right through the ball to the cloth. My experience is when people can't jump very well, telling them to follow through leads to immediate improvement.

Randy? John?
Click to expand...

Mike: I agree 100%. Most beginner jumpers want to get the cuestick "back" out of the way. That of course requires a tight grip and a de-accelerating cue.

I usually put a jump cloth under the cueball and tell them to touch the cloth of every jump. I have them "hold" their Finish Position extra long. Granted they may never touch the cloth but they sure learn to explode into the cueball.

Ralf is a fine jumper but his thought process is a little off.....SPF=randyg
 
mnorwood said:
I plan on revising the video to include this viewpoint. I find it curious that no printed source that I can think of teaches to follow all the way through the cue ball not even dave's book. Most players and instructors always speak of a popping motion that implies not following through.
Click to expand...
I admit that the jump shot section in my book could be much better. I learned a lot more after I filmed all of the slow-motion stuff (after I wrote the book). However, I do have these statements on p. 241 (the same page you quoted previously):
use a light cue ... or jump cue ... lighter weight allows you to get the cue stick up to speed faster ... Use a throwing motion with a lighter grip.​
This advice certainly does not imply you should use a tense "jab" or "pull-back" stroke.

Also, much more detailed and complete advice about jump shots can be found in many of my newer videos:


and in Tom Simpson's videos:
part1 and part 2​

Regards,
Dave
 
Pinching Bumping and Jumping

I am a very proficient jumper although all the leagues I play in do not allow jump cues. So, I do not get much of an opportunity to use it in competitive play other than in tournaments and I do understand if rules allowed every low level player would get a jump cue and with no technique would be ripping pool cloth all across town. Most of the time kicking ends up being more productive for me. The cue I use is a Stealth AT1 it has a VERY hard tip. Using just the shaft I can do the credit card jump pretty easily which I think is probably the most extreme example of a jump shot.

Getting to the original poster's question about follow through. Let's take a moment and look at everything that makes jumping easier and more successful.

Equipment:
Very Hard Tip
Very Hard Shaft if Possible
Very Light Cue

Technique:
Very Light Grip
Loose Wrist (Esp. Dart Stroke)
Follow Through
Sharp Crisp Hit

I have tried a great number of jump cues and one year at the APA nationals I met a gentleman who was selling a jump cue of sorts that was very unique. The whole thing was made from Dymond wood (Spelling?) and came with several handles of varying length and weight. Dymond wood is a laminate that uses a phenolic resin and is harder that any wood that I know of. Basically this thing was two shafts screwed together with no tip just a ferule that was scored to take chalk, but, the performance was probably the best I had ever tried. He said one thing that stuck with me which was that really what the cue needs to do in a jump shot is bounce off the cue ball.

If you look at all the things that make the jump more successful most of these things would lend themselves to the cue bouncing off of the cue ball. Now, I do not believe we are talking bouncing a matter of inches maybe just a millimeter or two but it seems to be just enough to let the cue ball get out from under the cue.

In helping others to learn jumping most of the problems have to do with trying to "muscle" the ball into the air. The tight grip and the jab to keep from following through do seem to inhibit the jump from actually happening and (my belief) will "trap or pinch" the ball between the cloth and tip.

Do I follow through? Yes, in fact unless I am doing a near vertical jump my tip usually slides across the table. Keep in mind this tip is very hard and might even be a phenolic tip just like a ball hitting and sliding across the cloth.

Light grip? Try this it certainly helps my students who have the death grip they can't seem to get away from. Using the dart stroke make a peace sign and stick the cue between your fingers and use a loose wrist to create a snapping action. This is very effective when the balls are very close together. Green Reps if you try this and like it!

BK
 
Bigkahuna said:
I am a very proficient jumper although all the leagues I play in do not allow jump cues. So, I do not get much of an opportunity to use it in competitive play other than in tournaments and I do understand if rules allowed every low level player would get a jump cue and with no technique would be ripping pool cloth all across town. Most of the time kicking ends up being more productive for me. The cue I use is a Stealth AT1 it has a VERY hard tip. Using just the shaft I can do the credit card jump pretty easily which I think is probably the most extreme example of a jump shot.

Getting to the original poster's question about follow through. Let's take a moment and look at everything that makes jumping easier and more successful.

Equipment:
Very Hard Tip
Very Hard Shaft if Possible
Very Light Cue

Technique:
Very Light Grip
Loose Wrist (Esp. Dart Stroke)
Follow Through
Sharp Crisp Hit

I have tried a great number of jump cues and one year at the APA nationals I met a gentleman who was selling a jump cue of sorts that was very unique. The whole thing was made from Dymond wood (Spelling?) and came with several handles of varying length and weight. Dymond wood is a laminate that uses a phenolic resin and is harder that any wood that I know of. Basically this thing was two shafts screwed together with no tip just a ferule that was scored to take chalk, but, the performance was probably the best I had ever tried. He said one thing that stuck with me which was that really what the cue needs to do in a jump shot is bounce off the cue ball.

If you look at all the things that make the jump more successful most of these things would lend themselves to the cue bouncing off of the cue ball. Now, I do not believe we are talking bouncing a matter of inches maybe just a millimeter or two but it seems to be just enough to let the cue ball get out from under the cue.

In helping others to learn jumping most of the problems have to do with trying to "muscle" the ball into the air. The tight grip and the jab to keep from following through do seem to inhibit the jump from actually happening and (my belief) will "trap or pinch" the ball between the cloth and tip.

Do I follow through? Yes, in fact unless I am doing a near vertical jump my tip usually slides across the table. Keep in mind this tip is very hard and might even be a phenolic tip just like a ball hitting and sliding across the cloth.

Light grip? Try this it certainly helps my students who have the death grip they can't seem to get away from. Using the dart stroke make a peace sign and stick the cue between your fingers and use a loose wrist to create a snapping action. This is very effective when the balls are very close together. Green Reps if you try this and like it!

BK
Click to expand...

WHAT A GREAT POST. TAP-TAP-TAP SPF=randyg
 
The thing is that you CAN jump with with a DEATH grip. I have shown how to jump balls with every grip and stroke you can imagine. People come up and say they are too short and I get on my knees and jump balls.

The cue is not bouncing off the cue ball. At least I don't feel that it is.

When I owned Bunjee I outfitted several Bunjees with different tips to test the effectiveness and understand the differences/limitations.

I found that the most effective full leather tip is one that has been cut to the last layer and highly burnished to harden it. Using this tip I could jump almost every shot that I could with a phenolic tipped Bunjee Jumper.

I honestly do not think that the cue is bouncing off of the cue ball.

I do not think that the cueball is getting trapped as long as you hitting the cueball in the correct spots.

If you have a super tight grip and you are hitting the cueball in the right spot and the cueball does not clear the object ball then the reason is NOT because the cue ball has been trapped - it is likely because with the tight grip you have probably failed to follow through enough to hit the cue ball with enough force. However it is possible to POP it with enough force to cause the cue ball to jump.

Popping the cue ball with force as opposed to following through with a pure stroke is artificial however and is much tougher to get consistent results.
 
JB Cases said:
The thing is that you CAN jump with with a DEATH grip. I have shown how to jump balls with every grip and stroke you can imagine. People come up and say they are too short and I get on my knees and jump balls.

The cue is not bouncing off the cue ball. At least I don't feel that it is.

When I owned Bunjee I outfitted several Bunjees with different tips to test the effectiveness and understand the differences/limitations.

I found that the most effective full leather tip is one that has been cut to the last layer and highly burnished to harden it. Using this tip I could jump almost every shot that I could with a phenolic tipped Bunjee Jumper.

I honestly do not think that the cue is bouncing off of the cue ball.

I do not think that the cueball is getting trapped as long as you hitting the cueball in the correct spots.

If you have a super tight grip and you are hitting the cueball in the right spot and the cueball does not clear the object ball then the reason is NOT because the cue ball has been trapped - it is likely because with the tight grip you have probably failed to follow through enough to hit the cue ball with enough force. However it is possible to POP it with enough force to cause the cue ball to jump.

Popping the cue ball with force as opposed to following through with a pure stroke is artificial however and is much tougher to get consistent results.
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John,
I always enjoy reading your posts.

The cue may not be bouncing off the tip and neither of us have high speed film equipment. Yes I can jump with a death grip too but more effective with a lighter grip. Certainly doing the credit card jump it is a necessity to have the lightest of grip and a sharp stroke with a loose wrist.
 
Bigkahuna said:
John,
I always enjoy reading your posts.

The cue may not be bouncing off the tip and neither of us have high speed film equipment. Yes I can jump with a death grip too but more effective with a lighter grip. Certainly doing the credit card jump it is a necessity to have the lightest of grip and a sharp stroke with a loose wrist.
Click to expand...

Absolutely, you probably know that the trick to that shot is let go of the cue completely.

I once had a guy interrupt my exhibition to challenge me with that shot. He wanted five tries for $500. I had about $2000 on me in cash in my pocket and I took it out and threw it on the table and said "you have one try". He backed off.

Later that evening he brought someone over to my table and got them to bet the $500 with five tries and he did it on the second attempt using a Bunjee Jumper.

Later the guy who wanted to bet me came back and taught me how to do the shot.

I agree that for this shot no follow through is needed and the cue bounces off of the cue ball. This is the extreme end of the jumping spectrum though and is not a practical shot in game play.

I consider that this shot is more of a trick shot and it's going to be pretty inconsistent even for the best jumpers.

While I demonstrate this shot (or try to) I also caution people that it's not the act of jumping the ball that is important. It's being able to do it consistently and with control. So if the choice is a close-up jump shot that is low percentage vs. a high percentage kick shot then the kick shot is the right shot. If the jump shot is high percentage - meaning make the jump AND control the cue ball then that's the better shot.

I think if one were to create a scale then one could say that jumping the ball with just a credit card's width requires the lightest touch and no follow through and jumping a ball 8 feet into a six inch target requires a lot of force and follow through. That is just to make the ball jump. Jumping with control of the cueball requires the same focus and concentration and ability to combine the correct speed/spin as on any other shot, but do it with the cue in an elevated position.
 
JB Cases said:
Absolutely, you probably know that the trick to that shot is let go of the cue completely.

I once had a guy interrupt my exhibition to challenge me with that shot. He wanted five tries for $500. I had about $2000 on me in cash in my pocket and I took it out and threw it on the table and said "you have one try". He backed off.

Later that evening he brought someone over to my table and got them to bet the $500 with five tries and he did it on the second attempt using a Bunjee Jumper.

Later the guy who wanted to bet me came back and taught me how to do the shot.

I agree that for this shot no follow through is needed and the cue bounces off of the cue ball. This is the extreme end of the jumping spectrum though and is not a practical shot in game play.

I consider that this shot is more of a trick shot and it's going to be pretty inconsistent even for the best jumpers.

While I demonstrate this shot (or try to) I also caution people that it's not the act of jumping the ball that is important. It's being able to do it consistently and with control. So if the choice is a close-up jump shot that is low percentage vs. a high percentage kick shot then the kick shot is the right shot. If the jump shot is high percentage - meaning make the jump AND control the cue ball then that's the better shot.

I think if one were to create a scale then one could say that jumping the ball with just a credit card's width requires the lightest touch and no follow through and jumping a ball 8 feet into a six inch target requires a lot of force and follow through. That is just to make the ball jump. Jumping with control of the cueball requires the same focus and concentration and ability to combine the correct speed/spin as on any other shot, but do it with the cue in an elevated position.
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Actually I did not know about letting go of the cue. When I do the same jump I use just the shaft at a backwards angle and the tip hits the table. Certainly would not be my first choice to jump most of the time and a short jump like that is really none productive as you usually do not get much travel after the hop. I would probably need the 1 in 5 to bet on it. I really have to get dialed in to be able to do it. I don't think I could just walk up to the table cold not having jumped in weeks and do my best jump. I can't really explain it but when I am jumping a balls width or less I feel like I am using less force and almost feel like I am nearly dropping the stick on it feeling effortless..
 
The Light Touch

Bigkahuna said:
Actually I did not know about letting go of the cue. When I do the same jump I use just the shaft at a backwards angle and the tip hits the table. Certainly would not be my first choice to jump most of the time and a short jump like that is really none productive as you usually do not get much travel after the hop. I would probably need the 1 in 5 to bet on it. I really have to get dialed in to be able to do it. I don't think I could just walk up to the table cold not having jumped in weeks and do my best jump. I can't really explain it but when I am jumping a balls width or less I feel like I am using less force and almost feel like I am nearly dropping the stick on it feeling effortless..
Click to expand...

This shot is really only to show that the jump can be made, it's not really useful in 99% of game situations. However knowing the technique is useful as there are a lot of jump shots that come up which are a half ball's distance to the blocking ball and knowing how to jump the cue ball at that distance is a great weapon to have.

When you are making this shot you are only dropping the cue onto the ball. It's the only way to do it as any extra force will push the cueball into the cloth too much. I think that this shot is truly an example of equal and opposite reaction and it's a marvel as to how it happens without a foul - IF it happens without a foul. Eric Yow's video for example seems to indicate that the side of the cue is pushing the cue ball.

On a side note, the accomplished German player and trick shot artist Ralf Eckert, used to do nearly this shot, with about half a chalk width's distance with a FULL CUE and make a ball in the opposite side pocket.

And two years ago I was at an exhibition in China and there was an older Taiwanese trick shot artist doing the shot where you pocket a ball and the cue ball doubles the rail all the way up the table to make another ball hanging in the corner. The distance between the cue ball and the first ball is about a half chalk's width. The first try he jumped the cue ball over the object ball unintentionally with a full cue. Only a handful of us in the crowd knew the significance of what he did and we applauded.
 
JB Cases said:
This shot is really only to show that the jump can be made, it's not really useful in 99% of game situations. However knowing the technique is useful as there are a lot of jump shots that come up which are a half ball's distance to the blocking ball and knowing how to jump the cue ball at that distance is a great weapon to have.

When you are making this shot you are only dropping the cue onto the ball. It's the only way to do it as any extra force will push the cueball into the cloth too much. I think that this shot is truly an example of equal and opposite reaction and it's a marvel as to how it happens without a foul - IF it happens without a foul. Eric Yow's video for example seems to indicate that the side of the cue is pushing the cue ball.

On a side note, the accomplished German player and trick shot artist Ralf Eckert, used to do nearly this shot, with about half a chalk width's distance with a FULL CUE and make a ball in the opposite side pocket.

And two years ago I was at an exhibition in China and there was an older Taiwanese trick shot artist doing the shot where you pocket a ball and the cue ball doubles the rail all the way up the table to make another ball hanging in the corner. The distance between the cue ball and the first ball is about a half chalk's width. The first try he jumped the cue ball over the object ball unintentionally with a full cue. Only a handful of us in the crowd knew the significance of what he did and we applauded.
Click to expand...

I can only jump portions of a ball with my regular cue which has a very "whippy" predator shaft. So, I guess I would have to say wow!
 
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