Jumping, and Use of Jump cues

[SJDinPHX]

Now I know the etymology of the word "stymied", always wondered about that.

Back on point, I rather see jump cues go away, but not a return to the 2 foul rule, slows the game too much. People already while away too much time thinking.

I am guessing by your post you may be too young to have played
two shot fouls. And thats OK. It may be whatever you grew up
with is what you are most comfortable with. The difference in the
speed of the game would be infitismal between top pros.
When TE introduced the new one shot foul rule, all the top players
hated it. It took a generation for it to become accepted. It was
Basically "play our way or don't play" when introduced.

 

[catscradle]

I am guessing by your post you may be too young to have played
two shot fouls. And thats OK. It may be whatever you grew up
with is what you are most comfortable with. The difference in the
speed of the game would be infitismal between top pros.
When TE introduced the new one shot foul rule, all the top players
hated it. It took a generation for it to become accepted. It was
Basically "play our way or don't play" when introduced.

I wish I were too young, 62 in a week.
What I called 2-foul and you called it may be different so I'll say what I mean so we'll know if we're talking the same thing. The rule I'm thinking of in essence allows a pushout on every shot.
I don't know about the speed difference being small, some of the players take an awful long time thinking about shots, an extra shot now and then for them to think about would just slow things more. And it is really 2 extra thinking breaks, one for the original pushout and the other for the opponent to decide whether to take it or not. If everybody played like Luc Salvas, it wouldn't be a problem, but I think more play like Ralf Souquet than do like Luc.
I do see your point that playing with TE rules and 2-foul rules are very different games.
As you can tell I hate a game that drags on with a long time between shots. That may be difference about the game between the 2 of us, I don't know.

 

[SJDinPHX]

I wish I were too young, 62 in a week.
What I called 2-foul and you called it may be different so I'll say what I mean so we'll know if we're talking the same thing. The rule I'm thinking of in essence allows a pushout on every shot.
I don't know about the speed difference being small, some of the players take an awful long time thinking about shots, an extra shot now and then for them to think about would just slow things more. And it is really 2 extra thinking breaks, one for the original pushout and the other for the opponent to decide whether to take it or not. If everybody played like Luc Salvas, it wouldn't be a problem, but I think more play like Ralf Souquet than do like Luc.
I do see your point that playing with TE rules and 2-foul rules are very different games.
As you can tell I hate a game that drags on with a long time between shots. That may be difference about the game between the 2 of us, I don't know.

If it makes you feel any better, you're still a youngster to me.ha ha
at least I think we agree on the use of jump cues though, didn't we?
I forget now! I played just a hair slower than Lou Butera in my prime.

 

[JB Cases]

Its not pro's that do the damage, it is the young bangers trying to
emulate the pros that can cause all kinds of problems.
We all know it was the change from 2 shot foul to Texas express
that brought out the proliferation of jumping. Sorry but I am in Buddy
Hall's camp on that fiasco. To me there is no difference between a
so called "legal" jump and cueing far enough under the ball to hop it
over a ball in your way.To me they are both bogus.As you say..
everythings allready been said on the subject. That does not mean
you are right and I am wrong! We just differ.

At some point all pros were young bangers.

Yes, I pointed out that the move to 1 Foul 9 ball brought with it the greater need to jump balls. It also created the need to learn to kick and the need to learn to play very tight safeties.

Why do people gloss over the latter two when discussing jumping?

In 2 foul nine ball for those that don't know how it goes - you never needed to know how to kick because you could push out at any time. You rarely needed to jump because you could push out at any time. You didn't need to play tight safeties because your opponent could and would push out at any time.

So overall today's players are much more well rounded than yesterday's players when it comes to nine ball. This is also a result of Texas Express rules.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion on the subject of jumping balls but since you are in Buddy's camp would you deny him the jump shot? Before Texas Express rules became the norm I and all the top players in Oklahoma City were able to and did frequently jump balls with our playing cues. Sometimes that was the best shot as there was no good push available. I am sure that Buddy Hall, Louie Roberts, Scotty Townsend, Earl and all the players from the 70's - late 80's jumped many balls in their matchups.

I wasn't trying to say that you are wrong. I was merely addressing some points that needed clarity. In truth the bangers aren't tearing up the tables or the jump shot and jump cues would already be banned universally. I believe that the majority of folks who purchase the cues try to learn to use them correctly and responsibly. Of course there are always exceptions.

The point was that it's about time in my opinion to stop debating about it. The subject has been beaten to death and the facts are that the shot is an integral part of the game and has been well before Texas Express rules and before the explosion of jump cues.

And now for all those that say jumping balls is against the history and tradition of the game.

You all know that billiards was developed from croquet to be an indoor version. As such I direct you to read a little about the jump shot in croquet, which is a routine shot and widely practiced. The history of the "game" does in fact include the jump shot. And I guess it predates kicking.

Jumping the ball in croquet

Edit: and it's a concern in croquet as well; from this website

"Jump Shot

1. This shot is used when an opponent ball gets stuck in a hoop your ball is in a position to make the hoop. The only way to make the hoop is to jump the ball over the one already in the hoop.
2. Explain where the feet should be positioned and show how the mallet handle must be angled forward. The mallet should hit down on the ball at 2 o'clock.
3. Let the beginner have a go. Explain about the potential to damage the lawn.

This shot takes hours of practice, so don't expect the player to achieve at this point. "

 

[SJDinPHX]

At some point all pros were young bangers.

Yes, I pointed out that the move to 1 Foul 9 ball brought with it the greater need to jump balls. It also created the need to learn to kick and the need to learn to play very tight safeties.

Why do people gloss over the latter two when discussing jumping?

In 2 foul nine ball for those that don't know how it goes - you never needed to know how to kick because you could push out at any time. You rarely needed to jump because you could push out at any time. You didn't need to play tight safeties because your opponent could and would push out at any time.

So overall today's players are much more well rounded than yesterday's players when it comes to nine ball. This is also a result of Texas Express rules.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion on the subject of jumping balls but since you are in Buddy's camp would you deny him the jump shot? Before Texas Express rules became the norm I and all the top players in Oklahoma City were able to and did frequently jump balls with our playing cues. Sometimes that was the best shot as there was no good push available. I am sure that Buddy Hall, Louie Roberts, Scotty Townsend, Earl and all the players from the 70's - late 80's jumped many balls in their matchups.

I wasn't trying to say that you are wrong. I was merely addressing some points that needed clarity. In truth the bangers aren't tearing up the tables or the jump shot and jump cues would already be banned universally. I believe that the majority of folks who purchase the cues try to learn to use them correctly and responsibly. Of course there are always exceptions.

The point was that it's about time in my opinion to stop debating about it. The subject has been beaten to death and the facts are that the shot is an integral part of the game and has been well before Texas Express rules and before the explosion of jump cues.

And now for all those that say jumping balls is against the history and tradition of the game.

You all know that billiards was developed from croquet to be an indoor version. As such I direct you to read a little about the jump shot in croquet, which is a routine shot and widely practiced. The history of the "game" does in fact include the jump shot. And I guess it predates kicking.

Jumping the ball in croquet

You make some good points re; improved kicking. But is mostly blind kick-
ing really any form of defense. Tight safeties are just that, and even a
good 3 rail kick is usually your last shot. Most well rounded players knew
how to kick from other disciplines long before TE.
Lets call an uneasy truce, we've beat it to death, I'm going to go practice
my kicking and jumping!!!!!

 

[RRfireblade]

1) Don't focus on the fact that a jump cue makes jumping easier.......

2) We need to remember that the act of jumping a ball should not be the hard part. Controlling the cueball is the hard part........

3) Try to play pool without a leather tip or without chalk........

1) But that is really the point. Of course CB control is important but the simple fact is that given a jump cue , many a player who was previously dead hooked and couldn't get the CB off the cloth with a standard Cue given a 100 tries, can now do so in like 3 mins of practice.

2) Agreed but like I stated , you've given up half the battle for $99 when it was always common to claim that you can't buy a pool game. You sure can buy a jump shot. Does matter if you have the best leather tip created and chalk handed down from Moses at the mountain , none of that will help you make a tough cut shot if you dont have the skill first.

3) I surely do. I regularly play full sets with my Pheno tipped J/B cue for practice. It's quite fun IMO and I do it for both the additional challenge , learning and just to change things up. I even do it as a form of 'weight' for some people.


For the record , I'm not anti jump but I think there should be a line between how much help you can get from your equiptment. Every other sport constantly evaluates new technology and it's effect on the spirit of the game. I just feel like when you can buy equiptment that immediately allows you to perform , in this case a certain shot , that you could never do at all with out it , then then you may have crossed the line.

I can get out of the sand 9.9/10 times with a 9 iron even tho a wedge makes it easier and simply buying one alone won't get you out without the skill first. Tigers driver won't cure a slice or hook , etc.

That's all I'm saying.

IMO.

 

[Derek]

Jumping with a full cue sure is pretty. At least I think so. In fact, I'm a heck of a lot more accurate with a full cue than my shorty, although I can't get the same height.

I definitely don't mind the short cues being used by less skilled players as the chances of them making the shot are slim. If they're not missing the object ball, then they're scattering balls around and leaving a shot. Sometimes they get lucky and leave you hooked, but that same thing can happen with a successful kick shot.

I have yet to see anyone locally consistently jump in shots, even among the top players around here. I'm sure there's some hot shot that knocks in balls, but I'm actually surprised by the amount of top players around here who don't pocket jump shots more consistently and that the majority of them seem scared to use a full cue for a jump.

A well-executed kick shot is also a beautiful thing.

 

[RRfireblade]

I'm actually surprised by the amount of top players around here who don't pocket jump shots more consistently.

I'd gamble tho that it's probably just a hair more often than you see them kick balls in.

 

[worriedbeef]

1) But that is really the point. Of course CB control is important but the simple fact is that given a jump cue , many a player who was previously dead hooked and couldn't get the CB off the cloth with a standard Cue given a 100 tries, can now do so in like 3 mins of practice.

you say that, but if the player has only had 3 minutes practice, what are the chances of him actually executing the shot properly? maybe he will get over the ball but will he pocket it? and will he be on the next shot? when you come back to the table yourself is the time to evaluate whether he gained the advantage or not. if a player is a crap jumper, chances are he won't have the advantage on the table even if he made did make the jump shot. what i've found anyway.

 

[Flex]

I may be the only one on here old enough to remember that an old
rule in golf used to be; If your opponents ball is in your line to the
hole, it was called "stymied". Your opponent did not mark his ball.
you had to chip over it to get to the cup. They found this rule un-
acceptable years ago. When enough Pool table cloths get ripped and a few people get hurt, room owners may see it for what it is.
A poor unacceptable way of distorting the rules.

Who the hell cares how they do things in golf??

So you wanna see some ripped cloth? How about banning power break shots?

Those suckers can screw the cloth up big time. Oh yeah, let's also ban power draw shots. I've seen a few badly ripped cloths from those shots.

When I jump balls, the tip never touches the cloth.

A beautifully executed jump shot is a sight to behold.

Flex

 

[JB Cases]

But that is really the point. Of course CB control is important but the simple fact is that given a jump cue , many a player who was previously dead hooked and couldn't get the CB off the cloth with a standard Cue given a 100 tries, can now do so in like 3 mins of practice.

How is this different than the person who uses a chalked leather tip? without a chalked leather tip you can't draw your ball two inches and with one you can draw easily with 3 minutes of practice.

2) Agreed but like I stated , you've given up half the battle for $99 when it was always common to claim that you can't buy a pool game. You sure can buy a jump shot. Does matter if you have the best leather tip created and chalk handed down from Moses at the mountain , none of that will help you make a tough cut shot if you dont have the skill first.

You can't buy a pool game. You don't buy they skill of jumping balls when you purchase a jump cue, you purchase the opportunity to jump balls. When you approach the table with a jump cue you are not guaranteed to make the jump at all. I routinely miss clearing the blocking ball on shots that should be hangers for me. Why? Because I choke on the stroke under pressure. That has nothing at all to do with how good the cue is for the task.

Your second sentence is exactly the point I am making. Let's substitute a few words and you will see what I mean.

Doesn't matter if you have the best jump cue handed down from Moses at the mountain , none of that will help you make a jump shot if you dont have the skill first.

3) I surely do. I regularly play full sets with my Pheno tipped J/B cue for practice. It's quite fun IMO and I do it for both the additional challenge , learning and just to change things up. I even do it as a form of 'weight' for some people.

So then you know exactly what I mean. You know that your range of possible spin shots is reduced considerably when you use the phenolic tip, especially if you use it without chalk. Imagine if you had to play that way all the time. Wouldn't you feel great about all the things you could do once you were given a cue with a softer leather tip and some chalk? That's what a jump cue is - it merely opens up the range of available shots. To do those shots however requires a lot of practice.

For the record , I'm not anti jump but I think there should be a line between how much help you can get from your equiptment. Every other sport constantly evaluates new technology and it's effect on the spirit of the game. I just feel like when you can buy equiptment that immediately allows you to perform , in this case a certain shot , that you could never do at all with out it , then then you may have crossed the line.

There is a line. It's drawn and defined in the rulesets that have been in place for more than a decade. Our sport evaluated jump cues in the mid 90s and the rulemakers developed the rules under which current jump cues are built and used.

Any jump shot can be performed with a full cue. German pro Ralf Eckert does a 1mm jump shot in his trick shot show using a full cue. However the success rate depends on the type of cue used, the cloth, the slate, and mostly the skill level of the player. A jump cue merely reduces all the variables except for skill.

Going back to our example of the chalked tip: it is not the case that any spin shot can be made with a cue that has no tip. With a chalked tip then just about any spin shot is possible. So by using a chalked tip you are in effect giving yourself a range of shots that at one time was not possible.
So, by your definition using a chalked leather tip is crossing the line. But in my mind it's crossing the line to the good. As it allows the player to expand their skill to the limit of their capability.

I can get out of the sand 9.9/10 times with a 9 iron even tho a wedge makes it easier and simply buying one alone won't get you out without the skill first. Tigers driver won't cure a slice or hook , etc.

That's all I'm saying.

IMO.

That's the whole point. A jump cue won't cure a bad stroke, poor practice habits, lack of comprehension and so on. If anything it magnifies a player's deficiencies and simply allows them another way to sell out. A jump cue is simply a tool to facilitate one aspect of the game. No more no less than a leather tip is to spin shots.

 

[RRfireblade]

John,

This is why I hate long discussion on forums , I just don't have the patience for long posts do to my lack of typing ability. Anywho , I'll try . . .

Bottom line is it all comes down to opinion , as always , and where you see the line.

I know DOZENS of people that now jump regularly since they bought J/Bs that sill can not get the ball off the table with thier playing cue. Simple truth and in my experience by far the norm. I'm not talking Pro level , of course they are pros for a reason. I myself have only ever jumped with my playing cue till maybe the last year or so and still do on anything less that a real tight jump.

As for the Leather tip area , I don't see it impacting it's specific area of the game nearly as much as pheno J/Bs do to jumping. High level pool is ALL CB speed play IMO. English is not only highly overated and over used but typically what you do when you messed up somewhere before that. You can get more than enough english for 90% of the shots with a pheno tip and a little chalk , if needed. I think most would be suprised to see that , I know they are when they see me play with one and I'm no awesome player.

"Doesn't matter if you have the best jump cue handed down from Moses at the mountain , none of that will help you make a jump shot if you dont have the skill first."

This is where we disagree , generally. Most of the people I'm talking about spend a few minutes pounding the table to death till the CB starts popping up and then they are off the races.

Lastly , I'm saying it's always going to make the difference in the game. I'm not saying it's going to change the world. I'm not even saying J/Bs should be banned or something. I'm just saying that I feel a 12oz whatever , half length , glass or pheno tipped jump cue makes it too easy to jump a ball with improper technique and/or practice compared to the other skills of the game.

 

[Scott Lee]

Actually, no, it does mean you're wrong. The origin of Jump cues predate Texas Express rules by several years.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

We all know it was the change from 2 shot foul to Texas express
that brought out the proliferation of jumping. That does not mean
you are right and I am wrong! We just differ.

 

[SJDinPHX]

Who the hell cares how they do things in golf??

So you wanna see some ripped cloth? How about banning power break shots?

Those suckers can screw the cloth up big time. Oh yeah, let's also ban power draw shots. I've seen a few badly ripped cloths from those shots.

When I jump balls, the tip never touches the cloth.

A beautifully executed jump shot is a sight to behold.

Flex

Obviously you are looking for an argument. Well I totally agree, a well
executed jump shot is a thing of beauty-but I've made a few, and seen
hundreds. About one in ten are successful. If you know how to kick,
your chances (if you make a solid hit,)of lucking a ball in are much better.
Jumping usually only works with hangers-and thats a fact.

 

[SJDinPHX]

Actually, no, it does mean you're wrong. The origin of Jump cues predate Texas Express rules by several years.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

We all knew that. I only meant to infer that "jumping" was not a factor
until TE rules became the way we were forced to play.
Cue makers had never made one single "jump cue". Argue that!!!!

 

[SJDinPHX]

Where were all of you when I suggested recently that I didn't think jump cues should be allowed? Everyone "jumped" all over me.

I own one and can use it, but I kick really well IMO because I don't over use it.

I would have been right at your back. (until all the young bangers got on
our case.) Hooked is hooked, jumping is cheating! IMHO.
Elevating your cue,to get over the edge of a ball when you are
just barely hooked has always been accepted. When you are stone
hooked behind a ball two inches away,to me there is no difference
between jumping and hopping over the ball. Hopping (cueing the
cue ball so low it jumps over the impeding ball) to me are both
one and the same. Hopping has never been considered legal.
This has been a good exchange of viewpoints on this subject.
There is probably never going to be a winner. All I see is a lapse
back into the generation gap. Young whippersnappers versus the
"old guard" I'm Proud to be of the latter. (But I still love the game.)

 

[finnegan]

jump cues

jump cues are great the best player i seen jump a ball is shin park from korea

 

[CocoboloCowboy]

I will still Kick, before I JUMP.

 

[SJDinPHX]

I will still Kick, before I JUMP.

AMEN BROTHER!!!

 

[catscradle]

...to me there is no difference
between jumping and hopping over the ball. Hopping (cueing the
cue ball so low it jumps over the impeding ball) to me are both
one and the same. Hopping has never been considered legal...

You know that is a good point, I've never thought of. I've always presumed "Hopping" is illegal because "anybody can do it", likewise virtually anybody can jump with a jump cue. When does something become easy enough to do that it should be deemed illegal in the game? Why not make "hopping" legal?