just got back from apa nationals.

[Skippy27]

As I know there is no hope to convince you otherwise, I'll concede. Skippy, you are absolutely right and I think anytime you you feel there is a time violation you should handle
the issue each time exactly as you've described. Who knows, maybe they'll even thank you for making them aware of the issue. Let us all know how that works out for you.

So tell me you and side kick here which rules do we abide by and when do we decide to abide by them?

If someone accidently hits the cue ball while practice stroking, do we call that or just say no harm no foul?

What about obvious double hits and do we just spot the 8 if they accidentally make it early or foul while making it?

Clearly you 2 clowns want to pick and chose which rules to apply and when to apply them. Which is fine, if you 2 are shooting in your basement to determine who is going to go down on who. However, this is a worldwide organization that is paying out hundreds of thousands of dollars and has rules for a reason and they have them with the expectation that they will be followed.

Follow the rules, don't try to find loops holes or skirt the rules, play with integrity and you won't have a problem with anyone, including me.

I honestly believe that neither of you 2 clowns would play as free spirited as you pretend here if you were actually there contending. I think the 2 of you just like acting like schmucks to stir the pot. So stir away as I'm done with both of you.

 

[lorider]

So tell me you and side kick here which rules do we abide by and when do we decide to abide by them?

If someone accidently hits the cue ball while practice stroking, do we call that or just say no harm no foul?

What about obvious double hits and do we just spot the 8 if they accidentally make it early or foul while making it?

Clearly you 2 clowns want to pick and chose which rules to apply and when to apply them. Which is fine, if you 2 are shooting in your basement to determine who is going to go down on who. However, this is a worldwide organization that is paying out hundreds of thousands of dollars and has rules for a reason and they have them with the expectation that they will be followed.

Follow the rules, don't try to find loops holes or skirt the rules, play with integrity and you won't have a problem with anyone, including me.

I honestly believe that neither of you 2 clowns would play as free spirited as you pretend here if you were actually there contending. I think the 2 of you just like acting like schmucks to stir the pot. So stir away as I'm done with both of you.

Funny you call me a clown... You dont know how appropriate that is. The names of a couple of my teams are....clownin around and pool hall clowns.

As I mentioned earlier. When I was I. Vegas the opposing captain stopped the game and called for an observer to watch my shot. I knew he did it solely to shark me and he admitted as much the next day when we ran into each other in the lobby. I found it amusing....guys like you and el Leon would have started world war 3 over that and come in here complaining.

I don't sweat the small stuff and I dont treat every match like its the world series. Life is too short for all that drama and I honestly think I play better even when ever I know my opponent may or may not have broken a rule or try to get in my head.

Guys like you want to blame the rules....the bad tables.....your opponents actions....everything but yourselves when you lose. Sure your opponent may have fouled and denied it and due to the rule of if there I no observer the call goes to the shooter..

Me.... I shrug it off and just pls my game. Guys like you get all bent out of shape and consequently play bad and lose. Then you want to blame your opponent instead of yourself for letting him get into your head.

 

[jojopiff]

My experience...

Played 9ball & masters...

9ball teams. We won our first 2 matches and lost our 3rd which was, unfortunately for us, the start of the single elimination portion. A good showing for us considering I consider this more of a fun team and we miraculously made it this far.

The first 2 teams we played were all nice people with fairly handicapped players. There was a situation in the first match. Match 3 and it's our 3 vs their 2 and each player needs like 2-3 points and they have ball in hand (with 2 balls left on table) in what is a tough out for a 2/3 if played incorrectly. They don't have a timeout and their bench captain asks if they have a timeout and is told no. He calls a timeout. I stopped the match and called the ref and explained. He said no foul, I proclaimed he was wrong and I wanted his boss. His boss comes and says it's not a foul. (When I'm wrong, I like to be loud about it) This is baffling to me as locally this a foul to keep people from letting their player know if they're doing something wrong. Their player was upset, partially at me and at her team as well. I can see her point of view but I don't believe I was wrong as I believe the one player was trying to circumvent the rules. I'm not going to proclaim their whole team cheaters or bad people just because 1 person tried pulling a move.

Out 3rd match was against a team who wasn't as outgoing but not rude either. They had a 3 that was very strong and was a 4, IMO. I'm told she did go up thereafter but didn't check and don't know if that's true. In all fairness, we had a wicked strong 4. We didn't play him the last few matches locally cause he was mowing people down and didn't want him to go up. We put him up first every match and he won every one, most quite handily. I'm sure the other teams thought we/he was a cheater and sandbagger. He never went up and never had a "W" next to him. I was expecting and thought he should have gone up. He didn't, completely fine by me. I've never, and would never, tell a player to miss or lose or run up innings. But, from the outside I'm sure we looked like cheaters. It's perspective and most people choose not to see that and simply proclaim "the APA is all sandbaggers", etc. We wound up losing this match and this team did very well, finishing top 8.

Masters: We had a good team but didn't do well at all. I went 1-1 and our best player went 0-2 and the other guy about the same as me went 0-1. Disappointing showing for sure. The teams we played were good, obviously. Not much to say, got whoooooooped!!

Westgate: Food options are terrible. Not much to choose from and most very overpriced. The only place there that wasn't was the deli and their food and customer service was poor. I stayed there and our room was fine, what I would expect. The AC didn't really work so it was F'ing hot.

Mini's: I've said it before and I'll say it again, the APA mini's are less than ideal. Tough to get in one and if you do you'd better know that you feel like doing one 24 hours prior. I got in one and that was enough for me.

Tables: The layout is quite good. The tables themselves were about what I'd expect from 300 valley tables, which is they'd play below average.

Finals: Very cool they have a little arena with bleachers a screen above it showing the match. I watched some of the 9ball finals. Very nice touch.

Everyone on the team had a great experience and were thrilled. Very happy for them as it's unlikely they'll have this opportunity again.

 

[hon400ex]

My experience...

Played 9ball & masters...

9ball teams. We won our first 2 matches and lost our 3rd which was, unfortunately for us, the start of the single elimination portion. A good showing for us considering I consider this more of a fun team and we miraculously made it this far.

The first 2 teams we played were all nice people with fairly handicapped players. There was a situation in the first match. Match 3 and it's our 3 vs their 2 and each player needs like 2-3 points and they have ball in hand (with 2 balls left on table) in what is a tough out for a 2/3 if played incorrectly. They don't have a timeout and their bench captain asks if they have a timeout and is told no. He calls a timeout. I stopped the match and called the ref and explained. He said no foul, I proclaimed he was wrong and I wanted his boss. His boss comes and says it's not a foul. (When I'm wrong, I like to be loud about it) This is baffling to me as locally this a foul to keep people from letting their player know if they're doing something wrong. Their player was upset, partially at me and at her team as well. I can see her point of view but I don't believe I was wrong as I believe the one player was trying to circumvent the rules. I'm not going to proclaim their whole team cheaters or bad people just because 1 person tried pulling a move.

Out 3rd match was against a team who wasn't as outgoing but not rude either. They had a 3 that was very strong and was a 4, IMO. I'm told she did go up thereafter but didn't check and don't know if that's true. In all fairness, we had a wicked strong 4. We didn't play him the last few matches locally cause he was mowing people down and didn't want him to go up. We put him up first every match and he won every one, most quite handily. I'm sure the other teams thought we/he was a cheater and sandbagger. He never went up and never had a "W" next to him. I was expecting and thought he should have gone up. He didn't, completely fine by me. I've never, and would never, tell a player to miss or lose or run up innings. But, from the outside I'm sure we looked like cheaters. It's perspective and most people choose not to see that and simply proclaim "the APA is all sandbaggers", etc. We wound up losing this match and this team did very well, finishing top 8.

Masters: We had a good team but didn't do well at all. I went 1-1 and our best player went 0-2 and the other guy about the same as me went 0-1. Disappointing showing for sure. The teams we played were good, obviously. Not much to say, got whoooooooped!!

Westgate: Food options are terrible. Not much to choose from and most very overpriced. The only place there that wasn't was the deli and their food and customer service was poor. I stayed there and our room was fine, what I would expect. The AC didn't really work so it was F'ing hot.

Mini's: I've said it before and I'll say it again, the APA mini's are less than ideal. Tough to get in one and if you do you'd better know that you feel like doing one 24 hours prior. I got in one and that was enough for me.

Tables: The layout is quite good. The tables themselves were about what I'd expect from 300 valley tables, which is they'd play below average.

Finals: Very cool they have a little arena with bleachers a screen above it showing the match. I watched some of the 9ball finals. Very nice touch.

Everyone on the team had a great experience and were thrilled. Very happy for them as it's unlikely they'll have this opportunity again.

I don't have a rule book handy but I've always thought that if you don't have a coach and knowingly call it anyway, then it is a sportmanship foul and BIH for other player. However, if you make a mistake and call one when you don't have one, no foul.
Andy

 

[Celophanewrap]

So tell me you and side kick here which rules do we abide by and when do we decide to abide by them?

If someone accidently hits the cue ball while practice stroking, do we call that or just say no harm no foul?

What about obvious double hits and do we just spot the 8 if they accidentally make it early or foul while making it?

Clearly you 2 clowns want to pick and chose which rules to apply and when to apply them. Which is fine, if you 2 are shooting in your basement to determine who is going to go down on who. However, this is a worldwide organization that is paying out hundreds of thousands of dollars and has rules for a reason and they have them with the expectation that they will be followed.

Follow the rules, don't try to find loops holes or skirt the rules, play with integrity and you won't have a problem with anyone, including me.

I honestly believe that neither of you 2 clowns would play as free spirited as you pretend here if you were actually there contending. I think the 2 of you just like acting like schmucks to stir the pot. So stir away as I'm done with both of you.

You know Skippy (I love that name, "Skippy"), you know Skippy, in many situations I
knida let my opponent dictate how that goes. We can keep it as friendly as you like,
and to be honest I'd rather it is played that way.

It's league night, I'm playing an S/L 2
or 3 and they make a mistake like the one you mention - they accidentally hit the cue
ball, chances are I'll smile and look away or put the cue ball back about where it was
and let them shoot. I'd much rather build the good will and help out a learning player.
Players with a higher S/L I likely know and have some sort of relationship with, I'd
expect them to play honestly and pick up (or some similar action) the cue ball and
offer me ball in hand. If they don't I might wait a minute to see if they say anything.

Anyone can make a mistake and not notice or realize that they did, if it's a continued thing,
then we have a problem and I can give as good as I get it, it doesn't take long to
get that message across and things generally change soon thereafter. I guess that's just how we roll.

If I face, or if anyone my team faces a new player or a new team and they want to trade rules instead
of play, well, I can do that too, but I'd rather not.

It's far more important to me to build the game by encouraging the new player and establish the good will,
maintain the friendship, trade knowledge, stuff like that.

When we get to LTC or NTC the steaks go up and I expect you to know the rules as well as I do and to play by them,
but make no mistake, at that level we will play by the same rules and once again, I'll expect you to know them and abide
by them or you'll wish you had, but I hope it can stay friendly

The wins will come, LTC, NTC, will be there.I believe in Karma. Being a "rule whore", letting the rules play instead of you
playing, well it's bad Juju, but if you play friendly, well it's kinda like a good Reggae song vs. the theme from the Exorcist.
Know what I mean?

You may need an exorcism before you get an ulcer

 

[jojopiff]

I don't have a rule book handy but I've always thought that if you don't have a coach and knowingly call it anyway, then it is a sportmanship foul and BIH for other player. However, if you make a mistake and call one when you don't have one, no foul.
Andy

As per the ref & whomever he called to come talk to me. It could be sportsmanship foul. They knowingly called one (as he asked if they had one and our & their scorekeeper told him no) but it wasn't a sportsmanship foul yet. I asked the "boss" how many times until it becomes a sportsmanship foul and he grinned and said "whenever they deem it to be a sportsmanship foul". He wasn't gonna give me a number as then it'd be real easy to circumvent the rules. I disagree with their rule on this. The APA usually tries not to have grey area and they have this where it's easy to cheat at Nationals. Our LO made it BIH foul, doesn't matter if it was an accident. As some teams kept having the same "accident".

I understand and appreciate most APA rules even if I don't like them. This particular one doesn't fall into that category though.

 

[StuartTKelley]

OP , nice post and good information. I've played APA for many years and though no league is perfect it seems at least locally our LO has done a great job over the years and definitely taken for granted by many. I will say though as I've said many times...It really SUCKS to play here on Diamond tables and know that if I am on a team that qualifies for Vegas that I have to go there and play on crappy Valley's that roll off. In my opinion that's kind of a slap in the face to all who have worked hard and been fortunate enough to win their local LTC, cities..whatever they call them in their area. Really, I'm flying all the way out there to play in the biggest tourney of my APA career and it's on Valley's and not even good one's? Come on APA, give up a little more here and show some appreciation. It's like getting VIP tickets to a show and meeting the sound guy instead of the band and then having seats where you can't even see the show....sucks. Yes, both players in match play on the same table but if it's you that gets that crucial bad roll and your opponent is a good player then guess who's out all because of an equipment malfunction....ie junky valley table....

 

[Celophanewrap]

My experience...

Played 9ball & masters...

9ball teams. We won our first 2 matches and lost our 3rd which was, unfortunately for us, the start of the single elimination portion. A good showing for us considering I consider this more of a fun team and we miraculously made it this far.

The first 2 teams we played were all nice people with fairly handicapped players. There was a situation in the first match. Match 3 and it's our 3 vs their 2 and each player needs like 2-3 points and they have ball in hand (with 2 balls left on table) in what is a tough out for a 2/3 if played incorrectly. They don't have a timeout and their bench captain asks if they have a timeout and is told no. He calls a timeout. I stopped the match and called the ref and explained. He said no foul, I proclaimed he was wrong and I wanted his boss. His boss comes and says it's not a foul. (When I'm wrong, I like to be loud about it) This is baffling to me as locally this a foul to keep people from letting their player know if they're doing something wrong. Their player was upset, partially at me and at her team as well. I can see her point of view but I don't believe I was wrong as I believe the one player was trying to circumvent the rules. I'm not going to proclaim their whole team cheaters or bad people just because 1 person tried pulling a move.

Westgate: Food options are terrible. Not much to choose from and most very overpriced. The only place there that wasn't was the deli and their food and customer service was poor. I stayed there and our room was fine, what I would expect. The AC didn't really work so it was F'ing hot.

Mini's: I've said it before and I'll say it again, the APA mini's are less than ideal. Tough to get in one and if you do you'd better know that you feel like doing one 24 hours prior. I got in one and that was enough for me.

Tables: The layout is quite good. The tables themselves were about what I'd expect from 300 valley tables, which is they'd play below average.

Finals: Very cool they have a little arena with bleachers a screen above it showing the match. I watched some of the 9ball finals. Very nice touch.

Everyone on the team had a great experience and were thrilled. Very happy for them as it's unlikely they'll have this opportunity again.

In case they didn't point it out to you all or show you the rule, as an FYI -

11. COACHING

b. So that coaching does not cause excessive delays in the progress
of a match, players with skill levels of 4 and up may receive one
coaching per game, and players with skill levels of 2 or 3
and nonrated players may receive two coachings per game.

Mark the coachings (also called time-outs) with a ‘T’ on the scoresheet to
avoid confusion. In any event, taking too many coachings will not be
considered a violation of the rules, although consistent attempts to take
too many coachings may result in a sportsmanship violation. It is up to
you to notify your opponent if he is taking a coaching he does not have
coming. Disagreements are handled just as any other protest or dispute.

-at the National level it's one time out per game, but the rest of the rule is the same.

So anyways, I have to agree about the food in the hotel. The best thing I had was a hotdog at the Sports Book grill. But I do love In-N-Out so the food at the hotel is more
like "Break glass in case of an emergency". Did you know you can get pretty good Mexican food 24/7 out there? If you go back get a car, even if just for a couple of days and get off the strip, some of the better food is out there

 

[hon400ex]

As per the ref & whomever he called to come talk to me. It could be sportsmanship foul. They knowingly called one (as he asked if they had one and our & their scorekeeper told him no) but it wasn't a sportsmanship foul yet. I asked the "boss" how many times until it becomes a sportsmanship foul and he grinned and said "whenever they deem it to be a sportsmanship foul". He wasn't gonna give me a number as then it'd be real easy to circumvent the rules. I disagree with their rule on this. The APA usually tries not to have grey area and they have this where it's easy to cheat at Nationals. Our LO made it BIH foul, doesn't matter if it was an accident. As some teams kept having the same "accident".

I understand and appreciate most APA rules even if I don't like them. This particular one doesn't fall into that category though.

I agree with you. I think it should be BIH in any HLT tournament. And even regular league, if someone is trying to gain an advantage. Your situation here sounds like a no brainer.

 

[Skippy27]

Extra coaching in league is not a BIH foul, it is sportsmanship. At the tournament I believe the same level of penalty progression would apply that I posted earlier. http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=5647356&postcount=21

 

[jojopiff]

Extra coaching in league is not a BIH foul, it is sportsmanship. At the tournament I believe the same level of penalty progression would apply that I posted earlier. http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=5647356&postcount=21

Each league can have their own bylaws. And, in our league, if the bench calls a timeout the player doesn't have then it's a BIH foul. If the player calls it and the bench rejects it then no foul.

 

[Skippy27]

OP , nice post and good information. I've played APA for many years and though no league is perfect it seems at least locally our LO has done a great job over the years and definitely taken for granted by many. I will say though as I've said many times...It really SUCKS to play here on Diamond tables and know that if I am on a team that qualifies for Vegas that I have to go there and play on crappy Valley's that roll off. In my opinion that's kind of a slap in the face to all who have worked hard and been fortunate enough to win their local LTC, cities..whatever they call them in their area. Really, I'm flying all the way out there to play in the biggest tourney of my APA career and it's on Valley's and not even good one's? Come on APA, give up a little more here and show some appreciation. It's like getting VIP tickets to a show and meeting the sound guy instead of the band and then having seats where you can't even see the show....sucks. Yes, both players in match play on the same table but if it's you that gets that crucial bad roll and your opponent is a good player then guess who's out all because of an equipment malfunction....ie junky valley table....

First off the tables are not nearly as bad as people make them out to be. I have played and/or watched hundreds of games on them and I can't say someone being robbed because of a table roll is really something one needs to worry about.

Second, Why would the APA change to Diamonds when a vast majority of their players play on Valley tables? You are a minority, several times over, as are the 9' elitist so adapt to the environment. You know going into it what tables they use and what balls they use so the rest is on you.

Third, according to so many here you should have no problem whatsoever going from your vastly superior and harder Diamonds to these crummy valley tables. You may have to adapt to banking, but really how many times do you have do that in the course of a match?

 

[Skippy27]

Each league can have their own bylaws. And, in our league, if the bench calls a timeout the player doesn't have then it's a BIH foul. If the player calls it and the bench rejects it then no foul.

You are right each league can have their own bylaws and we can end every single reply to a rule question with "Local bylaws can vary, check with your LO.".

The APA is very specific in what those bylaws can be, but does not enforce it until higher level tournaments. Even if some in the area were complaining about it, the APA may mention the complaint to the LO, but they would let them continue to run their business as they want. I do not believe BIH for coaching falls into any of those categories APA specifies as allowing for ByLaws, but I couldn't find their statement on such in a short search so......

Regardless, everyone simply accepts all of them because the LO said so, thus that is that. I have no problem with that, but their players may when they get to higher level tournaments and are surprised the way they have been playing in the LO's area for the last 10 years isn't actually correct according to the APA.

 

[StuartTKelley]

First off the tables are not nearly as bad as people make them out to be. I have played and/or watched hundreds of games on them and I can't say someone being robbed because of a table roll is really something one needs to worry about.

Second, Why would the APA change to Diamonds when a vast majority of their players play on Valley tables? You are a minority, several times over, as are the 9' elitist so adapt to the environment. You know going into it what tables they use and what balls they use so the rest is on you.

Third, according to so many here you should have no problem whatsoever going from your vastly superior and harder Diamonds to these crummy valley tables. You may have to adapt to banking, but really how many times do you have do that in the course of a match?

I suppose if they are decently fast and don't roll off then a Valley isn't all that bad to play on.

I think APA should use Diamonds because it's a national event and it's something special kind of like the VIP reference I used. It should have a little wow factor at least and when you walk into a room filled with fresh Diamond tables it is a little bit of a wow factor for sure. It should be all about the players and not how much APA has to spend. That should be part of the spoils for making it to Vegas in my opinion.

I've played happily on good Valley's and miserably on bad one's....Never been miserable on a Diamond though.

 

[Scott Lee]

Stuart...The APA did use Diamond tables at one National Team event about 8 or 9 years ago. When APA Corporate found out that Mark Griffin was a co-owner in Diamond Billiards, they chose to discontinue using those tables, since the BCAPL was a direct competitor to the APA.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

I suppose if they are decently fast and don't roll off then a Valley isn't all that bad to play on.

I think APA should use Diamonds because it's a national event and it's something special kind of like the VIP reference I used. It should have a little wow factor at least and when you walk into a room filled with fresh Diamond tables it is a little bit of a wow factor for sure. It should be all about the players and not how much APA has to spend. That should be part of the spoils for making it to Vegas in my opinion.

I've played happily on good Valley's and miserably on bad one's....Never been miserable on a Diamond though.

 

[lorider]

First off the tables are not nearly as bad as people make them out to be. I have played and/or watched hundreds of games on them and I can't say someone being robbed because of a table roll is really something one needs to worry about.

Second, Why would the APA change to Diamonds when a vast majority of their players play on Valley tables? You are a minority, several times over, as are the 9' elitist so adapt to the environment. You know going into it what tables they use and what balls they use so the rest is on you.

Third, according to so many here you should have no problem whatsoever going from your vastly superior and harder Diamonds to these crummy valley tables. You may have to adapt to banking, but really how many times do you have do that in the course of a match?

Skippy....i dont exactly agree with your wording but believe it or not....this clown agrees with the context of your post.

 

[lorider]

I agree with you. I think it should be BIH in any HLT tournament. And even regular league, if someone is trying to gain an advantage. Your situation here sounds like a no brainer.

I do agree that knowingly calling a time out when the player does not have one available could be a signal that the player is making a wrong decision.

However I believe it is not always the case and it could be an honest mistake. Should the player at the table be penalized for the captain or whoever calling for a time out ? I think not and I tell you why.

1. The player may be aware that he started to make the wrong shot due to a time out called but he still does not know what the correct shot may be..

2. An honest oversight that a time out is not available..yes I know time outs are supposed to be marked and who ever calls a time out should be aware if one is available.

I play double jeapordy and there have been times I have called time out when one was not available. The reason being is we have 2 formats and 2 games going on at the same time. Unbeknownst to me a team mate may have called a time out on some one playing 8 ball . I may be tied up giving a time out in 9 ball or even playing 9 ball when the time out occured and not even be aware of it.

If I am between racks and notice my 8 ball player starting to make a mistake I may call time out if he is starting to pull the trigger I do not have time to run over to check with the scorekeeper if one is available and i sure as heck cant yell across 2 tables to ask while my opponent is shooting .

So in that instance you really think my player should be penalized because I was not aware he did not have one available.

I was called a clown in an earlier post because I refuse to nit pick each and every rule violation that may or even may not have occurred intentionally or not.

I would rather win because I shot better than my opponent than because I received bih on the 8 ball due to my opponents captain calling a time out that was unavailable.

You guys keep on moaning and griping about what the rules and penalties should be while I just keep on enjoying lol for what it is.

Like cell said... We can play pool and have fun or we can throw the rule book at each other every other shot

 

[Celophanewrap]

I do agree that knowingly calling a time out when the player does not have one available could be a signal that the player is making a wrong decision.

However I believe it is not always the case and it could be an honest mistake. Should the player at the table be penalized for the captain or whoever calling for a time out ? I think not and I tell you why.

1. The player may be aware that he started to make the wrong shot due to a time out called but he still does not know what the correct shot may be..

2. An honest oversight that a time out is not available..yes I know time outs are supposed to be marked and who ever calls a time out should be aware if one is available.

I play double jeapordy and there have been times I have called time out when one was not available. The reason being is we have 2 formats and 2 games going on at the same time. Unbeknownst to me a team mate may have called a time out on some one playing 8 ball . I may be tied up giving a time out in 9 ball or even playing 9 ball when the time out occured and not even be aware of it.

If I am between racks and notice my 8 ball player starting to make a mistake I may call time out if he is starting to pull the trigger I do not have time to run over to check with the scorekeeper if one is available and i sure as heck cant yell across 2 tables to ask while my opponent is shooting .

So in that instance you really think my player should be penalized because I was not aware he did not have one available.

I was called a clown in an earlier post because I refuse to nit pick each and every rule violation that may or even may not have occurred intentionally or not.

I would rather win because I shot better than my opponent than because I received bih on the 8 ball due to my opponents captain calling a time out that was unavailable.

You guys keep on moaning and griping about what the rules and penalties should be while I just keep on enjoying lol for what it is.

Like cell said... We can play pool and have fun or we can throw the rule book at each other every other shot

I think the time out issue is like a couple of other APA situations where the sitting team has to take some responsibility, it's your job to keep track of the time outs, but "time out" is an arbitrary thing, it could be your team mate Joe coughing, or yelling at your other team mate Steve, or something a bit more subtle. Any signal might mean play a defense, or stand up and look at another shot. I've a few that seemed pretty complex.

If the other team calls a time out they don't have it really doesn't meet the level of a foul being called, if there is a sinister intent it didn't have to be a time out, but I can't really call a foul on someone for coughing or yawning, or whistling or something like that, a Rouge called time out - same thing. Besides, it's really up to me to keep track, if you get an extra that's on me.

It's like breaking from in front of the head string, if I don't stop you and check then that's on me and not a foul. Have any of you every scratched on the break and your opponent comes up places the cue ball out of the kitchen and shoots? Did you know that's not a foul? It's up to me to watch and pay attention and make sure the ball is in the kitchen. If it's not, I must stop my opponent and remind him to shoot from the kitchen.

You have to pay attention. These things aren't always done with melicious intent. It's on me to keep track and pay attention.

 

[lorider]

I think the time out issue is like a couple of other APA situations where the sitting team has to take some responsibility, it's your job to keep track of the time outs, but "time out" is an arbitrary thing, it could be your team mate Joe coughing, or yelling at your other team mate Steve, or something a bit more subtle. Any signal might mean play a defense, or stand up and look at another shot. I've a few that seemed pretty complex.

If the other team calls a time out they don't have it really doesn't meet the level of a foul being called, if there is a sinister intent it didn't have to be a time out, but I can't really call a foul on someone for coughing or yawning, or whistling or something like that, a Rouge called time out - same thing. Besides, it's really up to me to keep track, if you get an extra that's on me.

It's like breaking from in front of the head string, if I don't stop you and check then that's on me and not a foul. Have any of you every scratched on the break and your opponent comes up places the cue ball out of the kitchen and shoots? Did you know that's not a foul? It's up to me to watch and pay attention and make sure the ball is in the kitchen. If it's not, I must stop my opponent and remind him to shoot from the kitchen.

You have to pay attention. These things aren't always done with melicious intent. It's on me to keep track and pay attention.

I have never thought there was an ulterior motive when some one called time out when one was not available but that does not mean it was not their intention. As for all the subtle signals you mentioned those have never realm crossed my mind either....not to say it does not happen I. My area but I always like to give my opponents the benefit of the doubt.

I have seen such shenanigans when I played in a money league though.

One thing I can't stand is people not calling could on their selves. That does irritate me and I will call them on it. One night a guy made 4 bad hits in our match and denied every one of them so I decided to fix his ass ..he was o. Next rack he was on the 8. My last ball was beside it but he could make a clean bit with no problem. As he walked around the table to he in shooting position I told him I wanted an observer and he liked at me like I was crazy. I went and got the lo. She the lo.arrived and saw my opponent could hit the 8 clean with no problem he looked at me like what the heck and I told him the guy had made 4 bad hits during our match and I wanted an observer .

Well the guy was obviously kinda shook about it and missed an was 8 and i ran out. I never felt guilty about it. I just thought karma a##hole

 

[ElLeon]

Shot clock - I fail to see anything except a guideline. I see where it gives a guideline, what is it? 20 and 45 seconds or something like that? I'm sure that at the 21 second mark you were right there screaming for a referee and demanding a foul. If the match was lasting way too long for your taste I would think that perhaps players, both players, we're nervous and missing shots they normally wouldn't miss and the players, both players, we're over thinking and taking too long. That's a product of poor coaching, on both sides. Page 7? You mean the portion that gives the time GUIDELINES? I'm still missing where this says ball in hand foul, will you point that out, please. Also, in looking over the rules of whatever the APA calls it now - World Pool Championship, I still see guidelines. I don't recall ever hearing that a referee could issue a ball in hand foul for the ficticious shot clock violation. I believe at the national level a shot clock violation is a sportsmanship violation and would need to be brought to the attention of a floor manager or tournament director and a warning would be given before any such violation was called.
In some areas I know they impose an actual shot clock, but that would be considered a local rule which I'm sure you know isn't applicable on the national level

Stalemate - I have read that portion of the rules too. That's what I also understand the rule regarding a stalemate to be. We're you in a stalemate situation and it was not handled according to the rule?

Looking up a rule - So if I understand you correctly, the referee confiscated your rule book and didn't allow you to look up a rule? If that's not what happened I'm not sure why you didn't feel free to look up all the rules you wanted. But stopping the match so you could do so, that would be wrong. If you feel the ruling was wrong you ask for the floor manager as we were instructed to do, if you still don't agree and you think it impacted the outcome of the game / match you pay your fee and file a protest. If you really fell you were right you should have no problem doing this.

How many times was a referee called? - I wish I could say it slower for you, how many times did your team call a referee regararding a game related situation is - "watch a hit," "what's the rule?" You know, things like that. How often were they right/wrong? How often did you bring this to the attention of the floor manager? How often did you make use of the vehicles available to you and file a protest?

My apologies if you had a hard time understanding what I had posted previously, I've tried to be a little more organized this time so it would be easier for you read and comprehend.

I imagine I'd be right if I were to guess your team didn't win the 9 ball event. While at the APA event I overheard many conversations filled with all sorts of excuses, "the felt was bad", "the tables rolled bad", "those guys were a bunch of sandbaggers", "I was hung over", "the tables were too close together"..... I think only once did I actually hear, "my opponent was just better than me today". Surprisingly rare was the excuse blaming the referee, but as usual you don't disappoint. If you manage to qualify next year maybe, since your experience was as bad as it was this year, maybe you shouldn't go.

Shot clock: You may interpret a rule however you wish, but at the team captains meeting when the director tells everybody face to face that the shot clock will be enforced and the foul is ball in hand, then I interpret the rule to be exactly as they stated it would be.

Stalemate: Yes, we were in a stalemate situation and time was called to get the referee to adjudicate.

His immediate response was "I do not know that ruling exactly, but I think it goes like this...". He was then personally offended when I chimed in that if he is not certain of the rule, and that he had cited the rule incorrectly (in fact it was the opposite of the rule as written), we should pull out the rule book and read exactly what it says.

This was taken as a confrontation to his authority and lack of rule memorization, he handed the cue ball to the opponent and said that we would not be permitted to take the time to look up any rules. He did not "take the rulebook away from me". He simply took the "ready, fire, aim" approach.

It was not even the opponents turn at the table, yet he quickly took the cue ball and smashed away. Thus ending any ability to resolve the ruling as the ball had been struck (illegally and out of turn).

How many times had the ref been called: This was the third game of the match and he had probably been called over two or three times, and at least once by each team requesting a watch on a shot. There had been no rules issues up to this point.

Reasons for losing: Our team did not achieve 51 points in the match. We were eliminated in 64th position. There were no problems with equipment, tables, hardware, lighting or temperature/humidity.

Interesting fact #1: The team which eliminated us played three more rounds, winning a 5th place match and then being disqualified for having too many skill level changes during the tournament. Each of the following three matches resulted in their opponent raising formal complaints about skill levels. When we played them they had two skill level 3 players, one started as a 2 and bumped to a 4 after our match, the other one started as a 3 and bumped to a 5, then they were disqualified and banned from APA.

Interesting fact #2: My only complaint about the match was about the lack of skill, knowledge and tact of the referee and floor judge.

Interesting fact #3: I have no problem being eliminated where we ended up, and it allowed us to have a fun night at the pool party and enjoy some of Vegas instead of shooting non-stop for days. In 2011 my team placed 16th and it was too much pool for a "vacation".

Interesting fact #4: Please don't take this as a personal insult, but I don't care for you very much as a person. I find your personal interpretations of events that you were not at or a part of to be as shortsighted and dim as the referee who can't remember basic rules. At this point I think you're arguing just for the sake of arguing. However I do appreciate very much that you used some sentence structure and organized your thoughts better in this round of dim insults.