Justin Bergman slow playing

I completely agree that it was unfair that it had to be brought up in a thread in which Bergman's name is front and center. And I agree, no way in hell he tried undermining his good friend.

But I do have to side with implementing a shot clock, with an extension per player per rack. Bergman wasn't playing so slow that I would recommend a shot clock, but there are certain players out there who are just dreadful to watch. One of the women at the USBTC comes to mind. My lord, it was simply unwatchable for me. Watch a match with Mike Wong on youtube and tell me if that kind of slow playing is good for the sport.
 
Tin Man said:
OK, I'm tilted. This will be my most emotional post in my 10 year azb history.

The hate against slow play is the worst side of pool players I've ever seen.

It hurts NO ONE. It does NOTHING.

What if everyone got together and hated on people that shot too fast? Would that make any sense at all? It's absolutely absurd. Or if we hated on people that used open hand bridges?

The arguments are so f-ing whiny I have no words. What do we have again? Oh, let's see...it's killing the game for TV. Yeah, that's right, we put a 30 second shot clock together and we're all making millions. Zero chance. What's next, oh yeah, the game shouldn't be played without a time clock like other sports? Right, because pool has been played wrong the last hundred years.

The bottom line is that we have some free wheeling hot shots that think they play the game the way it's 'supposed to be played', who have the mental control of a 6 year old that missed their nap, that somehow get irked when their opponent gets off a shot or wants looks at their position from POV as part of their preshot routine. GET. OVER. IT. You don't get to decide how the game 'ought' to be played.

You're entitled to your opinions, yes, yes, you are. You can cast your vote. But to publicly attack players, launch hate campaigns, and go all 'lord of the flies' on our top US players because you forgot your fing Ritalin, it's very disappointing. I would think we are better than this as humans.

You might think I'm attacking, but I'm not. I'm honestly just defending their rights to play the game how they want. Keep thinking their slow, that's fine. But BACK OFF and be respectful. PLEASE.

Thank you.
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Slow play is in fact one of the worst things about this game. I'm not saying we need to play speed pool, but just play at a reasonable pace. The game is not that difficult that every single shot needs to be mulled over for eternity.

If there is ever a chance to get more interest from the general public, they don't want to see that.

Snooker is played on a much larger table. Is a much more difficult game to play (in general), and yet the majority of the top players have no problems with playing at a reasonable pace.

If they all played as slow as so many pool players, do you really think it would be as popular?
 
BeiberLvr said:
Slow play is in fact one of the worst things about this game. I'm not saying we need to play speed pool, but just play at a reasonable pace. The game is not that difficult that every single shot needs to be mulled over for eternity.

If there is ever a chance to get more interest from the general public, they don't want to see that.

Snooker is played on a much larger table. Is a much more difficult game to play (in general), and yet the majority of the top players have no problems with playing at a reasonable pace.

If they all played as slow as so many pool players, do you really think it would be as popular?
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I am certainly ok with people supporting the shot clock. Everyone gets an opinion.

What I dislike is the way in which slower players are attacked. I prefer discussion, voting, etc. When it bogs down to hostility I get fatigued.

Myself, I don't need a shot clock. I enjoy watching the game and have never been bothered by pace of play. More to the point, when I spend a few thousand to fly to a pro event for my typical one bullet a year, and I am nervous, I like the ability to take a deep breath, get centered, and shoot when I'm ready. I would NEVER go to a pro tournament with a shot clock because I just am not acclimated enough to have a shot. So maybe what we supposedly gain in viewership, maybe we lose in amateur following. Who knows.

But we can respectfully disagree. I appreciate that.
 
Justin played at a much faster pace last night in winning the 9-Ball tourney. IMO he played better as well. There are two very old pool expressions that come to mind for me when discussing this topic, "Think long, think wrong" and "Analysis paralysis". There is good reason they were both coined. I know when Johnny slowed his game dramatically, he was no longer winning tournaments. As soon as they put him on a shot clock his game picked up.

I could go on but this is enough for now. Congrats to Justin for winning both events. My only comment to him after his win last night was "Three Peat". He knew what I meant. No one has ever won all three here. He has already locked up the All Around and has winnings of $9400, more than first prize at Turning Stone!
 
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jay helfert said:
Justin played at a much faster pace last night in winning the 9-Ball tourney. IMO he played better as well. There are two very old pool expressions that come to mind for me when discussing this topic, "Think long, think wrong" and "Analysis paralysis". There is good reason they were both coined. I know when Johnny slowed his game dramatically, he was no longer winning tournaments. As soon as they put him on a shot clock his game picked up.

I could go on but this is enough for now. Congrats to Justin for winning both events. My only comment to him after his win last night was "Three Peat". He knew what I meant. No one has ever won all three here. He has already locked up the All Around and has winnings of $9400, more than first prize at Turning Stone!
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I remember Danny "Kid Delicious" Basavich was also a very, very slow player. I actually enjoyed watching him compete, but that is because I really always liked Danny. Reminded me of Geese.

Anyway, at the 2004 Glass City Open one year, they put a shot clock on the players in the semifinals. Danny played fast and furious and ran a six-pack against Corey Deuel, leaving Corey benched for much of the match. Corey could only sit back and watch The Danny Basavich Show. Corey actually had a smile on his face while sitting on his perch. I think he realized there was nothing he could do to win in this situation, so why not smile? :grin-square:

The lesson learned from this is that sometimes these players may not realize they play much better faster than they do slower. :p
 
JAM said:
I remember Danny "Kid Delicious" Basavich was also a very, very slow player. I actually enjoyed watching him compete, but that is because I really always liked Danny. Reminded me of Geese.

Anyway, at the 2004 Glass City Open one year, they put a shot clock on the players in the semifinals. Danny played fast and furious and ran a six-pack against Corey Deuel, leaving Corey benched for much of the match. Corey could only sit back and watch The Danny Basavich Show. Corey actually had a smile on his face while sitting on his perch. I think he realized there was nothing he could do to win in this situation, so why not smile? :grin-square:

The lesson learned from this is that sometimes these players may not realize they play much better faster than they do slower. :p
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It never took Keith long to destroy any thoughts his opponent had about beating him. :smile:
 
JB is like a little Honey Badger. He don't give a **** . He is trying to make a living and cash a nice check Monday. I'm pretty sure he isn't concerned if his style of play is entertaining to anybody. His results are speaking loud and clear. Congrats and hell of a job Justin. Ignore the haters who can't put 3 balls together anyway and snap off the 8 ball as well.
 
Teacherman said:
Needing rhythm is a myth. Poppeycock.

Greatest cue ball control in the country comes from skill and decison making. NO ONE is better at it than Justin Bergman.

The rack he took an extra long time analyzing....needed it. Very difficult rack. And he played it masterfully after making his choices and ran out. BRAVO.

Gotta love the crybabies.
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True, you don't need rhythm, but you'll work a lot harder without it.

First, I just want to mention that I'm not aware of how fast or slow Justin plays, so I am not judging him. But here is my comment on slow play in general:

If you want to play slow on your own time, have at it. But it's a real problem in organized competition. Matches are given an approximate length of time to complete, so when a player blatantly disregards their responsibility as a professional in a tournament, it's flat out selfish and wrong when he creates a backlog of late matches behind him. I'm not referring to a match that may run long due to extra safety play or other unforeseen circumstances. I'm talking about a player who just simply plays slow. Sure, players have to read racks and review options, especially the pros, and some racks are trickier than others, but the player also has a responsibility to manage their time at the table in a way that is considerate to the tournament.

Standing for a long time over a straight-forward shot is just taking precious time away from a match, particularly when that time could have been saved for when a difficult situation really comes up. That's what time management is all about and that's what a shot clock deprives you of when you eventually have to go on one due to poor time management. Then your opponent has to pay the price as well for doing nothing wrong and was trying to hold up his end.

Slow players should either learn to adapt or stay out of organized competition.
 
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Poppeycock.

Rhythm is letting the previous shot affect the next shot.

Rhythm is missing a ball that you didn't cinch because you wanted to keep up a pace.

Each shot is a new, distinct task.
 
Teacherman said:
Poppeycock.

Rhythm is letting the previous shot affect the next shot.

Rhythm is missing a ball that you didn't cinch because you wanted to keep up a pace.

Each shot is a new, distinct task.
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Fran Crimi made a well thought out explanation of why extreme slow play is detrimental to the scheduling of matches in tournaments and you can only respond with this. You are a poor excuse for a teacher of anything. I can vouch for what Fran had to say after directing over 200 major pool tournaments. Very slow players can be a drain on all the rest of the participants causing matches to fall way behind and play to continue into the wee hours of the morning. Of course Mr. Know It All you know best.
 
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jay helfert said:
Fran Crimi made a well thought out explanation of why extreme slow play is detrimental to the scheduling of matches in tournaments [...]
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Yes, and though I understand Tin Man's desire to honor and accommodate individual styles, the practical consequence of accommodating the extreme examples is that the tail gets to wag the dog...

If, as an example, a promoter feels the need to make a championship event a race to 9 rather than a race to 11 to plan for the possibility a few extreme outliers in playing speed, then I think we've all lost.
 
Bergman is probably the second best American player right now. He is playing so well that he would give Shane a run for his $ as well. Bergman shoots very straight and seems be very calm- plays great under pressure when I've watched him.

In terms of this direct topic, there is of course a fine line in terms of pace of play. If you play too slow you can definitely lose your rhythm. Having said that though, I'm sure we've all had occasions when we get into a fast playing rhythm and then make some dumb mistake that could have been avoided if only we slowed down and pondered the lay out or shot a bit more deeply.
 
The first year I played at DCC it was brutal. The one pocket division was so slow. I had a 9PM match, so I showed up at 8:30PM. I was to play on a table but the 7PM match using the table was still 1-1 in a race to 3 at 9PM. The tournament director told me to come back at 10PM.

I came back at 10PM, and the score was now 2-1. 15 balls were up table and the ball count was like 2-2. They would open up one ball, battle for it for 5 minutes, then someone would finally make it, then take a foul a few shots later. This continued for ever. Finally the game was over, and of course the guy that had been down 2-1 won the game and made it hill hill. This was around 11PM.

The tournament director moved my match to another table, turns out one of the 9PM matches was done so I played there instead. I was up 2-0 on my set before I saw the folks I had been waiting on finally finish their match. So that 7PM match took around 4 1/2 hours.

Amateurs playing in their first pro event, playing one pocket, obviously wedging all the balls and terrified of losing. It was brutal. That tournament ran pretty rough.

So yeah, Mike, Jay, I get it. Can't allow one player or match to ruin an event. At the same time it should be geared to cater to the majority, not the fastest 20%, and it should have enough cushion to where if someone needs to take a bathroom break or if there is a close set with some safety battles it doesn't automatically result in a 3AM match.
 
mikepage said:
Yes, and though I understand Tin Man's desire to honor and accommodate individual styles, the practical consequence of accommodating the extreme examples is that the tail gets to wag the dog...

If, as an example, a promoter feels the need to make a championship event a race to 9 rather than a race to 11 to plan for the possibility a few extreme outliers in playing speed, then I think we've all lost.
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Tin Man said:
The first year I played at DCC it was brutal. The one pocket division was so slow. I had a 9PM match, so I showed up at 8:30PM. I was to play on a table but the 7PM match using the table was still 1-1 in a race to 3 at 9PM. The tournament director told me to come back at 10PM.

I came back at 10PM, and the score was now 2-1. 15 balls were up table and the ball count was like 2-2. They would open up one ball, battle for it for 5 minutes, then someone would finally make it, then take a foul a few shots later. This continued for ever. Finally the game was over, and of course the guy that had been down 2-1 won the game and made it hill hill. This was around 11PM.

The tournament director moved my match to another table, turns out one of the 9PM matches was done so I played there instead. I was up 2-0 on my set before I saw the folks I had been waiting on finally finish their match. So that 7PM match took around 4 1/2 hours.

Amateurs playing in their first pro event, playing one pocket, obviously wedging all the balls and terrified of losing. It was brutal. That tournament ran pretty rough.

So yeah, Mike, Jay, I get it. Can't allow one player or match to ruin an event. At the same time it should be geared to cater to the majority, not the fastest 20%, and it should have enough cushion to where if someone needs to take a bathroom break or if there is a close set with some safety battles it doesn't automatically result in a 3AM match.
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I like how pro snooker does it....a scheduled match starts pretty much on time.
...if you match is running overtime, you have to give up your table for the next match....
....and wait for the first match in that round to finish....and you have to stay there...
...you want to do something else, you will be penalized a game every 15 minutes, or any
portion of 15 minutes.
This allows slow players to play their best way....but they are the ones inconvienced.

I bet on Berg against Shaw....if you're waiting for him to miss through carelessness...
....better pack a lunch.

I think every player should be allowed their speed that works for them....
...although I don't enjoy drawing them.
 
Teacherman said:
Poppeycock.

Rhythm is letting the previous shot affect the next shot.

Rhythm is missing a ball that you didn't cinch because you wanted to keep up a pace.

Each shot is a new, distinct task.
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Sure, it can be. But that would be considered a bad rhythm and I can't imagine why any player would want that.

This isn't the thread for it but briefly: Being in good rhythm is equivalent to playing in the zone. Your thoughts are in the right order and your aren't impeded by distractions. Your body is moving with minimal effort around the table in a coordinated way. You perform in a coordinated mix of conscious and sub-conscious thoughts in a consistent and positive order. It doesn't mean doing everything exactly the same way for every shot. It means quickly and properly assessing the situation without distractions.

Playing with no rhythm involves consciously directing every move. The player's thoughts do not flow in a consistent order. This leaves him open for distractions and he has to work harder to keep distractions out.

When properly trained, the sub conscious mind can be a player's greatest asset.
 
FranCrimi said:
Sure, it can be. But that would be considered a bad rhythm and I can't imagine why any player would want that.

This isn't the thread for it but briefly: Being in good rhythm is equivalent to playing in the zone. Your thoughts are in the right order and your aren't impeded by distractions. Your body is moving with minimal effort around the table in a coordinated way. You perform in a coordinated mix of conscious and sub-conscious thoughts in a consistent and positive order. It doesn't mean doing everything exactly the same way for every shot. It means quickly and properly assessing the situation without distractions.

Playing with no rhythm involves consciously directing every move. The player's thoughts do not flow in a consistent order. This leaves him open for distractions and he has to work harder to keep distractions out.

When properly trained, the sub conscious mind can be a player's greatest asset.
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Best post in the thread.
 
rhythm

why does rhythm have to mean fast?

what if a player walks slowly around the table at the same pace every time, chalks up, walks to where they expect the cueball to be as part of their pre-shot routine, walks back to their shot, picks a piece of lint off the table, air strokes a few times, then shoots...can that not be rhythmic?
 
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