I agree Jack should never warranty a case somebody else has worked on,but I disagree that JB is trying to discredit Jacks work.People are on this thread to buy,sell,and try new things out.I think JB is selling a product and is saying if you want to try my product you can.It ultimately up to the custumer to try it.If he said that Jacks cases were garbage then I would agree with you.Just my opinion.Thanks
Justis Cases - ALERT
- Thread starter Jack Justis
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Jack,
What you do is between you and your customers. You can run your business how you want to. You have every right to warn your customers as you want to.
I wasn't even aware that your cases carried a lifetime warranty until you sent it a few weeks ago. I do know that you have sent new interiors to people and given them instructions on how to take their existing Justis interiors out and replace them. I have a copy of what you sent verbatim.
I have two versions of our interiors for people to put in their cases.
1. Liner Only. For this one the customer would need to remove the existing liner from your tube and replace it with ours. Obviously this would be altering your original setup.
2. Tube and Liner. In this one the customer can simply remove the tube and replace it with our tube. This doesn't alter your orginal interior at all and IF the customer has some warranty issue then they can replace the tube. You can and should ask the customer if they have done anything and at that point it's between you and the customer.
I know that when I had my new truck under warranty there were certain things I could do that didn't void the warranty and other things that did. I wouldn't think that replacing an interior on your case would affect the warranty as the customer does not need tools and won't be affecting the exterior construction at all. But it's your right to handle aftermarket modifications how you think is best.
It's the consumer's right to modify the things that they own any way they see fit.
What sorts of problems do Justis case owners need to worry about needing the warranty for?
It seems to me that they should know this so that they can balance it against having better protection every day when using one of our interiors.
If the situation were reversed and someone wanted to put your ProLite interior into one of my cases I would continue to warranty the rest of the case and disclaim all responsibility for any cue damage as a result of the interior. Of course this is providing that they could put the ProLite interior in the case without damaging the exterior. If they have to deconstruct the case with tools then it voids my warranty as well UNLESS I provided them with instructions and permission to do so.
Have a good one.
What you do is between you and your customers. You can run your business how you want to. You have every right to warn your customers as you want to.
I wasn't even aware that your cases carried a lifetime warranty until you sent it a few weeks ago. I do know that you have sent new interiors to people and given them instructions on how to take their existing Justis interiors out and replace them. I have a copy of what you sent verbatim.
I have two versions of our interiors for people to put in their cases.
1. Liner Only. For this one the customer would need to remove the existing liner from your tube and replace it with ours. Obviously this would be altering your original setup.
2. Tube and Liner. In this one the customer can simply remove the tube and replace it with our tube. This doesn't alter your orginal interior at all and IF the customer has some warranty issue then they can replace the tube. You can and should ask the customer if they have done anything and at that point it's between you and the customer.
I know that when I had my new truck under warranty there were certain things I could do that didn't void the warranty and other things that did. I wouldn't think that replacing an interior on your case would affect the warranty as the customer does not need tools and won't be affecting the exterior construction at all. But it's your right to handle aftermarket modifications how you think is best.
It's the consumer's right to modify the things that they own any way they see fit.
What sorts of problems do Justis case owners need to worry about needing the warranty for?
It seems to me that they should know this so that they can balance it against having better protection every day when using one of our interiors.
If the situation were reversed and someone wanted to put your ProLite interior into one of my cases I would continue to warranty the rest of the case and disclaim all responsibility for any cue damage as a result of the interior. Of course this is providing that they could put the ProLite interior in the case without damaging the exterior. If they have to deconstruct the case with tools then it voids my warranty as well UNLESS I provided them with instructions and permission to do so.
Have a good one.
also, if what JB is saying is true (i dunno one way or another since i'm not involved) then he's not discreditting jack's work at all. he got the requests from current justis case owners to have his current interiors in their cases. i dont think john created some revolutionary new interior just to replace jack's interiors. i believe he has these interiors for quite a while. if im not mistaken it's the ones with the organic rebound interior thing. it might not have been fitted to jack's cases originally but the basic design is nothing new.
Reworked is too strong a word. Jack deliberately built the cases so that the interiors could be easily replaced. He has stated this several times.
Replacing the interior requires no tools. At least the one that I have required no tools. The interior comes right out with little effort and the new one slides right in.
Jack and I disagree about how much protection is proper for a cue. As far as I am concerned we are at opposite ends of the spectrum. Many Justis case owners feel the way I do about protection and desire to have that protection.
I personally don't think Jack should punish his customers by using these scare tactics but it's his choice how to deal with his customer's desires for more padding in their case.
You are out of your mind. I never called my self the knock off king and if I did say that then it was meant with total SARCASM.
The fact is - asshole - is that my cases are not cheap (as in inferior) copies of anyone's cases. If you want to BET HIGH then let's see you put up $10,000 and send any one of my cases and ANY ONE of the competition's, especially Jack or Jim's to any INDEPENDENT lab for testing and review and see whose comes out on top.
Yeah, your anus is well puckered now. I am 100% positive you don't have the balls to back up your words with an actual bet. Until then your ignorant nit opinion means nothing.
That is correct. But in this situation changing the interior is easier than changing a tip on a Predator shaft. Predator does not void the warranty for changing a tip and Jack should not, in my opinion, void the warranty for the external parts on his case. But as I said, he is free to do so.
What line? Where is the line?
You guys are amazing. You will discuss how BAD a cue maker is endlessly and bash and bash and bash and talk about how you think cues should be made but when I do the same in cases you say I crossed the line.
Why should you care one way or the other?
I happen to feel that cue cases should be built a certain way, many cue owners agree with me, many case makers agree with me. Jack feels differently.
Some people want to have what they consider the best of both worlds, Jack's nice exterior with it's distinctive design and my protective interior.
Why do you care about that?
I can't believe all the people that want to put me down for this and put down the people who make the decision to by the interior.
You aren't out there putting down or trashing OB1 or Predator or any of the shaft makers who provide aftermarket shafts that they CLAIM are superior to those that cue makers deliver on their own cues. You aren't trashing the people who buy these shafts and believe in them.
I don't get it.
Edited to add that I am HELPING Jack here.
Many folks on here have said if you don't like Jack's interior then don't buy a Justis. That doesn't help. To make choose NOT to buy one because they can't modify it????? That's just stupid to belittle people like that.
This is the equivalent of changing the wrap on a cue. Forget that, it's EASIER. Would you tell someone not to buy a Gina or some other high end cue when the maker wouldn't do leather wraps but you know someone who does excellent wraps?
I mean honestly, where is the downside here? Jack is voiding something that is virtually unneeded and the customer gets my protective interiors for his Justis. If I didn't OFFER this choice then I guarantee you that for some people on this forum a Justis case WOULD BE out of consideration.
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John,
Just a question for you...how would you feel if your customer ask Jack to change the interior of your case? Jack's interior design is the focal point why he named his cases "PRO-LITE" so I think that's why he mentioned that the warranty will be void if the owner will ask to change the interior by someone else. You can't compare a 314 shaft tips that has been replaced and will not affect the warranty. As what the previous post says is about the logo of the 314 predator shaft.
Just a question for you...how would you feel if your customer ask Jack to change the interior of your case? Jack's interior design is the focal point why he named his cases "PRO-LITE" so I think that's why he mentioned that the warranty will be void if the owner will ask to change the interior by someone else. You can't compare a 314 shaft tips that has been replaced and will not affect the warranty. As what the previous post says is about the logo of the 314 predator shaft.
just wanna chime in on someone using the word knock off........every case looks the same for the past 20 years...different tooling and a few pocket options. flowers and justis in my opinion are a cross between jb and whitten...outside of that spectrum it is hard to do something that doesnt resemble what has already been done...
jb offers affordable custom cases, which im sure many people appreciate, up to heavily tooled and custom works of art....check out some at indyq.com if u havent. he has a wide selection of styles to choose from and that is smart in my opinion because he sells to more people becuase of this.
justis does what he has been doing and offers some great choices in exotic materials such as alligator, hair on cow, etc....he has a style and doesnt have to vary away from that much.
justis uses a simple pocket design that was done not only by flowers but all leatherworkers since the invention of the zipper so please dont focus on the pocket and say anyone is knocking off anyone. i made a pocket like that 22 years ago as a boyscout and i still like using that pocket because it is simple and is a real clean looking pocket.
as i try and find i niche in the market without trying to copy someone i see the small differences in each maker and try and make a case that comes together as nicely as possible. if i use a "justis style pocket" or a "instroke style lid" it is because that is what works well with the case. if u go to leatherworker.net you will see plenty of things made with the same techniques used by all cue casemakers.
a case is a case and there are only so many ways to vary that. basically its all been done before, dont look at the lower end cases to see the differences...look at the higher end and that is when u will see the casemakers own personal ideas....lower end cases will look similar, extra work requires extra money.
jb offers affordable custom cases, which im sure many people appreciate, up to heavily tooled and custom works of art....check out some at indyq.com if u havent. he has a wide selection of styles to choose from and that is smart in my opinion because he sells to more people becuase of this.
justis does what he has been doing and offers some great choices in exotic materials such as alligator, hair on cow, etc....he has a style and doesnt have to vary away from that much.
justis uses a simple pocket design that was done not only by flowers but all leatherworkers since the invention of the zipper so please dont focus on the pocket and say anyone is knocking off anyone. i made a pocket like that 22 years ago as a boyscout and i still like using that pocket because it is simple and is a real clean looking pocket.
as i try and find i niche in the market without trying to copy someone i see the small differences in each maker and try and make a case that comes together as nicely as possible. if i use a "justis style pocket" or a "instroke style lid" it is because that is what works well with the case. if u go to leatherworker.net you will see plenty of things made with the same techniques used by all cue casemakers.
a case is a case and there are only so many ways to vary that. basically its all been done before, dont look at the lower end cases to see the differences...look at the higher end and that is when u will see the casemakers own personal ideas....lower end cases will look similar, extra work requires extra money.
I already answered that.
I would tell the customer that I am absolved of any and all responsibility for the protection of their cue if they switch to any other interior. That's simply logical because I can't control what surrounds the cue at that point.
But I wouldn't care otherwise. Once I sell a case the customer is free to modify it however they see fit. If they do anything to the exterior that alters what I did then any warranty on that section is gone.
I can actually compare changing a tip to this because this is EASIER than changing a tip and does nothing to alter the exterior of the case in the least. The other person said reworked, this is not reworking is is exchanging one thing for another with very little effort and no tools needed.
The case still says Justis on the outside. The weight is the same. My interior is clearly labeled as an UltraPad interior so there is no confusion.
People get the best of both, my protection, Jack's weight, and Jack's workmanship on the exterior.
I don't like these kinds of threads either, and there's been way too many of them for my taste. However, people are accusing John of being a cheap knock off artist, well...
Knock Offs? The most knocked off case to my knowledge is the original Instroke that John designed. Now that John is making custom cases again, if someone wanted a case with similar features of others but better protection, plus whatever else John can do to improve them, he makes it. One of those turned into the J. Flowers Tribute cases. John took the time to come up with a superior non-tube interior that many people prefer. What's the beef? I applaud John for trying to come up with a better mouse trap and succeeding.
Jack has built his great reputation for providing a very high quality of leather work and design (similar to the J. Flowers design) and protection. People wanted it lighter. Jack created his version of the Justis light. But he missed the boat with the interior he chose to use. To the extent that there are now instructions on how to place the cue to avoid damage, which there has been reported cue damage from using that interior. Those are the facts.
Jack still makes great quality cases with care, but his "light" interior is inferior protection and does not match the quality of his other great work and reputation. Why bicker? Learn from your mistakes and fix it, everything else you do is fantastic. All people want is protection without having to change how they like loading the case. I think you owe John a thank you for bringing this to your attention. Please do not be so proud that you will not improve the interior's design out of spite.
It is prestigious to own and carry a Jack Justis case, but in my opinion, it is prestigious to own and carry a JB Case, too. Again, what's the beef?
Dave
Knock Offs? The most knocked off case to my knowledge is the original Instroke that John designed. Now that John is making custom cases again, if someone wanted a case with similar features of others but better protection, plus whatever else John can do to improve them, he makes it. One of those turned into the J. Flowers Tribute cases. John took the time to come up with a superior non-tube interior that many people prefer. What's the beef? I applaud John for trying to come up with a better mouse trap and succeeding.
Jack has built his great reputation for providing a very high quality of leather work and design (similar to the J. Flowers design) and protection. People wanted it lighter. Jack created his version of the Justis light. But he missed the boat with the interior he chose to use. To the extent that there are now instructions on how to place the cue to avoid damage, which there has been reported cue damage from using that interior. Those are the facts.
Jack still makes great quality cases with care, but his "light" interior is inferior protection and does not match the quality of his other great work and reputation. Why bicker? Learn from your mistakes and fix it, everything else you do is fantastic. All people want is protection without having to change how they like loading the case. I think you owe John a thank you for bringing this to your attention. Please do not be so proud that you will not improve the interior's design out of spite.
It is prestigious to own and carry a Jack Justis case, but in my opinion, it is prestigious to own and carry a JB Case, too. Again, what's the beef?
Dave
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I make custom cues, and any major modification to one of my cue that is not done by me also Voids the cues warranty. The Logical reason for this is simple modifications can create problems because they were not part of the original design. Each builder of any product has the right to do this with products he builds like it or not.
So I agree with Jack completely!!!
The most knocked off case to my knowledge is the original Instroke that John designed. Now that John is making custom cases again, if someone wanted a case with similar features of others but better protection, plus whatever else John can do to improve them, he makes it.
Dave I have to disagree with your statement above. The most knocked off case design ever made was made Creative Inventions or Joe Porper. Porper started making his cases in the 1970's and those designs are knocked off by everyone in one way or another.
Actually, Porper started making cases in 1985. He copied the construction idea and perhaps the look from Bob Meucci.
I would say that most knocked off designs overall by factories has been the scallop Instroke Cowboy design, followed by the rest of the models that I put out with Instroke. Even Porper knocked off the scallop design of the Cowboy line.
However I do agree that the basic Porper case has been the inspiration for a most of the lower end top loading cases on the market.
In my opinion though the most knocked off design for cue cases by other makers however is the one most people credit to Fellini.
This design however was knocked off by Bob Hemphil (Fellini). Before him it was done by Ernie Gutierrez (Gina Cues) and Harvey Martin was doing similar versions before that.
So since the 50's this design has been done by Harvey Martin and then by Gina, Fellini, Ann Gore, Centennial, Schon, It's George, Kelli, Engles, McDermott, Viking, Ron Thomas and GTF. Of course each maker has done their own version but the genesis was the Harvey Martin cases per my research to this point.
No need for a truce where there is no war. Mr. Justis is making his position clear to his customers and that's fine.
It's other people that are fanning the flames.
You are free to modify anything you buy. I am free to offer modifications for whatever I want to. People need to be aware when those modifications void the warranty. It's simple.
Others are reading more into it than that.
My point being is that John created an "original" design that has been widely copied. I was making a point that to call John a cheap knock off artists is ridiculous. He is an innovator.
Ya know it occured to me, that unless the gorillia from the old Samsonite commercial is still hadling your baggage just about any hard case should offer decent protection, However I like the JB case's for looks, design and supeior protection. I could be wrong.......but I don't so:grin:
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