K-66 Monarch Superspeeds

[matteroner]

So many have been asking for the pictures of these cushions that came off of my 1916 Kling .....so rather than fully hijack another thread here they are.

by measurement they have to be k-66 ...

according to most of what you read in this forum these cushions should not exist .....but here they are

any comments here?

 

[Club Billiards]

They NO LONGER exist as in aren't being made any more. The modern Brunswick Superspeed cushions are not the same size as the Brunswick Monarch Superspeeds.

 

[matteroner]

They NO LONGER exist as in aren't being made any more. The modern Brunswick Superspeed cushions are not the same size as the Brunswick Monarch Superspeeds.

but you agree these are k-66 cushions and they go to an older brunswick table.


I say this because most people on here will claim that ALL old brunswicks will need k-55 and or modified subrails.

just wanted to show why someone would replace their old brunswick monarch superspeeds with k-66 ......because that is what they are.

any info on how long these cushions were manufactured from?... what model tables were these cushions made for? mine is a 1916 kling ...

 

[Jim Vondrell]

I have matched them up before and they are a bit bigger that is the monarchs are a bit bigger but not as big as the modern k55 thats why all older tables need to be modified to properly except new cushions. I still have a good set of monarch cushions at shop so next time i'm there i will match them again to reconfirm what i remember.

 

[matteroner]

I have matched them up before and they are a bit bigger that is the monarchs are a bit bigger but not as big as the modern k55 thats why all older tables need to be modified to properly except new cushions. I still have a good set of monarch cushions at shop so next time i'm there i will match them again to reconfirm what i remember.

i don't understand what you are saying,..

k-66 = 1 1/8 on the top 1 3/16 on the back....

if that is true then these cushions are k-66 because that is the measurement.

 

[Travis3c]

This is my personal experience with this issue. Modern K-66 cushion measures the closest to the original monarch cushions but do to the fact that the geometry of the meat of the monarchs and modern day k66 cushions are different. K-55's have close to the exact geometry of the original monarchs but measure very differently when comparing to a ruler.

For example, K66's, if mounted flush to the top of a unmodified rail will put the nose of the cushion high, where as k55 will put the nose of the cushion at the right height, but you lose the 50X100 playing area on a 9 ft table. I put K55's on old brunswicks if I have to just replace cushions and the customer dont want to spend the extra money to have the rails calibrated for a perfect playing field. If I ever get a customer who wants a true playing area I will pass the rails down to a Master mechanic here in southern california (SDbilliards) to calibrate them.

One benefit of just replacing Monarchs with K-55's is you gain a deeper pocket shelf, but you sacrifice the true playing field.

Its really hard to explain the geometry of the meat of the cushion and the angle in relation to the subrail angle. If you take a slice of the monarch cushion and a slice of the k66 and k55 and stack them you will see that the K55 follows a similar profile.

This is the best way i can explain it, I read one of Glen's first posts and he explains it alot better but I cant find it now.

 

[matteroner]

This is my personal experience with this issue. Modern K-66 cushion measures the closest to the original monarch cushions but do to the fact that the geometry of the meat of the monarchs and modern day k66 cushions are different. K-55's have close to the exact geometry of the original monarchs but measure very differently when comparing to a ruler.

For example, K66's, if mounted flush to the top of a unmodified rail will put the nose of the cushion high, where as k55 will put the nose of the cushion at the right height, but you lose the 50X100 playing area on a 9 ft table. I put K55's on old brunswicks if I have to just replace cushions and the customer dont want to spend the extra money to have the rails calibrated for a perfect playing field. If I ever get a customer who wants a true playing area I will pass the rails down to a Master mechanic here in southern california (SDbilliards) to calibrate them.

One benefit of just replacing Monarchs with K-55's is you gain a deeper pocket shelf, but you sacrifice the true playing field.

Its really hard to explain the geometry of the meat of the cushion and the angle in relation to the subrail angle. If you take a slice of the monarch cushion and a slice of the k66 and k55 and stack them you will see that the K55 follows a similar profile.

This is the best way i can explain it, I read one of Glen's first posts and he explains it alot better but I cant find it now.

this does make a bit of sense ....i had to mount the k-66 at the bottom of the setting strip to get the 1 7/16 rail height ....but it did come out to 50 x 100 .....
so my point is that if someone had these cushions the proper replacement is k-66 at the bottom of the setting strip to give 1 7/16 and 50 x 100 ....
seems like a better option than decrease in playing area or spending a ton of money to replace the subrails

 

[Mr. Bond]

In case it matters to ya', the monarch superspeed cushions in the photos above are post-1960.

The official superspeed cushion line was created in the early 20's, probably by Charles Miller, and was intended to replace the original Brunswick 'monarch' cushion line. The name Superspeed was trademarked in 1925.

Edit for mistake:
Monarch and Superspeed both, were the names of an entire line of cushions, not the name for a particular cushion profile. The Monarch cushion could have been purchased with various profiles for various tables. Carom, pocket, snooker, undersized, etc

Kling tables went into production in about 1913, prior to superspeed's arrival, so it would have been outiftted with 'monarch' cushions originally.

 

[matteroner]

In case it matters to ya', the monarch superspeed cushions in the photos above are post-1960.


The modern k55 is somewhat more like the original 'monarch', but as the cushion design morphed into the 'monarch superspeed' it became somewhat more like the modern k66. (although these profile names didnt exist yet)

Kling tables went into production in about 1913, prior to superspeed's arrival, so it would have been outiftted with 'monarch' cushions originally.

so what you are saying is the monarch superspeeds are the wrong cushions to replace the original monarchs.

it is interesting because the original monarchs must have had a short down side to attain the slope of the k-55 with the dimensions of k-66. As a result i bet they did not play very well.....

it's also great to see the evolution of setting strip and the cushion and it's relationship .....makes me think that there could be more done in this area to find the best combination ....

 

[Mr. Bond]

so what you are saying is the monarch superspeeds are the wrong cushions to replace the original monarchs.....

well, yes and no.
as the cushion's profile changed over time, the subrails obviously changed as well, so, what replacement to use depends on the year. in other words, to say "all antiques should have k55 profiles" is not always true...but sometimes it is.

The Kling is actually a great example of this. it was built, as many tables were, during a time of change. so it is entirely possible for Brunswick to have produced two different Kling models, years apart, with two different cushion or subrail profiles.

long story short, when you get into the older tables, just take some simple measurements and you'll find out every thing you need to know about what the cushion's profile could and should be.

 

[ROB.M]

cushion

These cushions are on a brunswick Challenger V — 1938 to 1946'
-Rare models produced in 1920
Rob.M

 

[Mr. Bond]

These cushions are on a brunswick Challenger V — 1938 to 1946'
-Rare models produced in 1920
Rob.M

1920? cool, I didnt know they used that name so early...I learnt something new today, thanx

 

[ROB.M]

table

I'm don't think its a 1920 model...but there was no ball storage or apron design accents on the table so I was not exactly sure how old the table is..I just know what the table was made between 1938 to 1946 with rare models made in 1920'....so...I'm not sure of the build date...
-
Rob.M