Kamui Black SS Tips - Premature Hardening?

I'm just curious, but why do so many people feel the need to prime these tips in the first place? Is there something that I am missing here? With Moori I have done this in the past, although I haven't even done It with them in a while, but I haven't found any reason to do It with Kamui, and have yet to have a failure. To be honest, although I have done It in the past, I rarely prime any tip anymore. As long as I make sure the tip is not rocking on the ferrule, and that It is gripping well to the face, then I rarely have any failures. I have used both 454 and the retail loctite precision with the same results. I'm just curious as to what the true benefit of priming is?

Thanks, Greg
 
I'm just curious, but why do so many people feel the need to prime these tips in the first place? Is there something that I am missing here? With Moori I have done this in the past, although I haven't even done It with them in a while, but I haven't found any reason to do It with Kamui, and have yet to have a failure. To be honest, although I have done It in the past, I rarely prime any tip anymore. As long as I make sure the tip is not rocking on the ferrule, and that It is gripping well to the face, then I rarely have any failures. I have used both 454 and the retail loctite precision with the same results. I'm just curious as to what the true benefit of priming is?

Thanks, Greg

Hi,

I agree with Greg 100%. I also think the Moori Q and M are hands down the best tips in the world. IMO.

I think Kamui is just a flavor of tip that people want because there is a lot of hype and it is popular. Its no better than any other tip out there and I don't like the way it machines. It's like shaving chocolate.

The moori machines more consistantly on the side and I don't see those ridges from the layers afterward.

I am not saying Kaumi is bad, I am saying I don't think it is in the same universe as Moori. The only knock on the Moori was that the med got a little harder some years back and it gave people something to complain about.

IMHO, Moori is the best tip in the world for quality and consistency and worth every penny. I will also say I think that the brown (not black) water buffalo is as good and the moori quick just no layers.

Tips are all about controlling the process of manufacturing them and what durometer hardness they have. Out of all the tips the Moorie Med and Quick have the least differential of hardness or feel to the player when you put a new tip on the cue concerning the compression factor. That why they don't mushroom like the Kamui or a lot of other tips.

Of coarse this is all based on my observations and opinion based on being a cue repair person because I really suck a pool.:help:

Rick G
 
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I'm just curious, but why do so many people feel the need to prime these tips in the first place? Is there something that I am missing here? With Moori I have done this in the past, although I haven't even done It with them in a while, but I haven't found any reason to do It with Kamui, and have yet to have a failure. To be honest, although I have done It in the past, I rarely prime any tip anymore. As long as I make sure the tip is not rocking on the ferrule, and that It is gripping well to the face, then I rarely have any failures. I have used both 454 and the retail loctite precision with the same results. I'm just curious as to what the true benefit of priming is?

Thanks, Greg

The theory was that the tips were wicking up the bonding layer, starving adhesion and causing failure.

I had several tips pop off, then started priming and haven't had that issue since.
 
The theory was that the tips were wicking up the bonding layer, starving adhesion and causing failure.

I had several tips pop off, then started priming and haven't had that issue since.



I use to do the same thing. Dennis Searing once recommended the process on here at a time that I had an issue with a few pop offs. I have hit with a couple of of His cues before, and really admire his work, the only other cue that I have had the pleasure of hitting with that felt as good to me was a Paul Mottey, so I have much respect for anything that he would suggest.

Not that I remember him saying this, but what I took from this method was not only did It help with the wicking action, but that It also helped to more easily sand the tip to perfectly flat surface.

Anyhow I only had this issue on one or 2 shafts, and they were the same 2 customer shafts. I had tipped the exact same type of shafts with no issues, just these particular 2 customer shafts had ferrules that seemed waxier then the other of the same make, and same ferrule type. These were only 2 shafts out of probably 100's that I had done around that time, but It was still unacceptable to me, so I used this method and even used it at times when I had no particular reason to do It. I found that mostly when I did this It was to ease the sanding process though, and end up with a flatter glue surface, because I had some tips that did not seem to sand perfectly even. For whatever reason I do not have this problem anymore.

Anyhow this was My experience and everyone's is different, but when I had one pop off, I examined It very closely, and usually It turned out that the wicking issue was actually not my issue at all. There was glue on the tip side, the break down was on the ferrule side, and the issue was with the glue not wicking or sticking to It.

Now days I have learned to spot this ahead of time, sometimes I can tell by the type of ferrule material if there will be a possible issue, but one thing I always do before gluing, is to lay the the tip on the ferrule face, apply pressure straight against It and try to move it to the side, If It grips well then I'm usually good to go, if it wants to slide off too easily, then I know there is a issue with the face of either the tip or ferrule not being perfectly flat, and I work on one or the other until I get the desired grip that I want. Sometimes the difference is so minimal, that you can not feel any rocking or see any other indication that things are not perfectly flat, but the above mentioned method usually tells the truth for me. If both of those fail to give the grip that I desire then It may be due to the type of ferrule material, and I may have to resort to cross hatching the face of the ferrule to get it to grip, although I would say that it is only the case in well under 5% of the time. Actually even less then that. It is rare that I have to do that, but It does help when left with no other alternative.

Like I mentioned everyone is different in what works for them, so if It works for you then I suppose It's for the best, and I can not find fault in that, but I am curious are you sure that the It's the wicking action that helps, or is It possible that It's helping you to achieve a flatter gluing surface? In My case I believe that was what was taking place when I used the method, because I rarely use it anymore, and My results are the same even with Mooris which I believe were the topic of the original discussion back when. I'm not saying That I never have it happen, but it's very rare on a customer cue, most any issue I would have would more then likely turn up on house cues, but usually that is a result of the way they are abused.

Greg
 
I use to do the same thing. Dennis Searing once recommended the process on here at a time that I had an issue with a few pop offs. I have hit with a couple of of His cues before, and really admire his work, the only other cue that I have had the pleasure of hitting with that felt as good to me was a Paul Mottey, so I have much respect for anything that he would suggest.

Not that I remember him saying this, but what I took from this method was not only did It help with the wicking action, but that It also helped to more easily sand the tip to perfectly flat surface.

Anyhow I only had this issue on one or 2 shafts, and they were the same 2 customer shafts. I had tipped the exact same type of shafts with no issues, just these particular 2 customer shafts had ferrules that seemed waxier then the other of the same make, and same ferrule type. These were only 2 shafts out of probably 100's that I had done around that time, but It was still unacceptable to me, so I used this method and even used it at times when I had no particular reason to do It. I found that mostly when I did this It was to ease the sanding process though, and end up with a flatter glue surface, because I had some tips that did not seem to sand perfectly even. For whatever reason I do not have this problem anymore.

Anyhow this was My experience and everyone's is different, but when I had one pop off, I examined It very closely, and usually It turned out that the wicking issue was actually not my issue at all. There was glue on the tip side, the break down was on the ferrule side, and the issue was with the glue not wicking or sticking to It.

Now days I have learned to spot this ahead of time, sometimes I can tell by the type of ferrule material if there will be a possible issue, but one thing I always do before gluing, is to lay the the tip on the ferrule face, apply pressure straight against It and try to move it to the side, If It grips well then I'm usually good to go, if it wants to slide off too easily, then I know there is a issue with the face of either the tip or ferrule not being perfectly flat, and I work on one or the other until I get the desired grip that I want. Sometimes the difference is so minimal, that you can not feel any rocking or see any other indication that things are not perfectly flat, but the above mentioned method usually tells the truth for me. If both of those fail to give the grip that I desire then It may be due to the type of ferrule material, and I may have to resort to cross hatching the face of the ferrule to get it to grip, although I would say that it is only the case in well under 5% of the time. Actually even less then that. It is rare that I have to do that, but It does help when left with no other alternative.

Like I mentioned everyone is different in what works for them, so if It works for you then I suppose It's for the best, and I can not find fault in that, but I am curious are you sure that the It's the wicking action that helps, or is It possible that It's helping you to achieve a flatter gluing surface? In My case I believe that was what was taking place when I used the method, because I rarely use it anymore, and My results are the same even with Mooris which I believe were the topic of the original discussion back when. I'm not saying That I never have it happen, but it's very rare on a customer cue, most any issue I would have would more then likely turn up on house cues, but usually that is a result of the way they are abused.

Greg

I'll go with both counts....:) I'll sand the tip flat on my granite, wipe it down with a clean paper towel, then hit it with thin. I can see the glue get sucked up in the pores and appear to raise fibers on the surface. Then I sand again and hit one more time with cyano(normally) and the glue sits. When it sits, I shake it off and blow it dry. Sand a last time on granite and I can see that the gluing surface is true.

All I know is that i haven't had a problem with them falling off since.
 
I'll go with both counts....:) I'll sand the tip flat on my granite, wipe it down with a clean paper towel, then hit it with thin. I can see the glue get sucked up in the pores and appear to raise fibers on the surface. Then I sand again and hit one more time with cyano(normally) and the glue sits. When it sits, I shake it off and blow it dry. Sand a last time on granite and I can see that the gluing surface is true.

All I know is that i haven't had a problem with them falling off since.



When all is said and done, that's what really matters, that what ever method someone uses, It works for them. It worked for me too, I just realized later on that whatever I was doing different did not require me to do It anymore, so It's one less operation, and I have no premature hardening as some have mentioned. Well at least not any caused By any prep work that I do. if It happens to me then It's purely on tip Itself.

I use a 12" square ,1/2-3/4 thick piece of Corian to sand Mine on. The Corian I use for that seems harder then some of the others. It seems more like granite then some of the other Corian I have seen that Seems to be more resin then anything. when I cut into It It's harder like stone, as where I have cut into some that seemed more like plastic, so that's the difference that I refer to.

Greg
 
Kamui ss

My personal experience (as a player) is the exact same as the OP. I've been using the SS Black tips for awhile and they definitely get harder as they break in.
The problem is that they deflect a lot more as they're compressing.

I'm sure all tips compress a bit after awhile but I haven't had the same deflection problems with Moori's or even Triumph tips that I played with for years before switching to Kamuis'. I'm interested if there is a resolve or if it's just something a player would have to try and get used to.
 
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