Kick bottom

OneIron

OneIron

On the snap, Vinny!
Silver Member
So if you play a one rail kick shot with bottom English and hit the OB full, the cue ball stops as if you hit it with no rail bottom. I know it works but don't quite understand why. Seems like the English would tend to reverse after hitting a rail or at least cancel out. I use this a lot in playing kick safeties. Any ideas?
 
OneIron said:
So if you play a one rail kick shot with bottom English and hit the OB full, the cue ball stops as if you hit it with no rail bottom. I know it works but don't quite understand why. Seems like the English would tend to reverse after hitting a rail or at least cancel out. I use this a lot in playing kick safeties. Any ideas?
Click to expand...
Easy explanation.

Upon hitting a cushion, a ball skids (slides without rolling) for a while... like it does when you hit middle ball (like on a stun shot).

This is VERY easy to see immediately after a table is recovered. Over time, the distance of the skid is reduced.
 
cigardave said:
Easy explanation.

Upon hitting a cushion, a ball skids (slides without rolling) for a while... like it does when you hit middle ball (like on a stun shot).

This is VERY easy to see immediately after a table is recovered. Over time, the distance of the skid is reduced.
Click to expand...

So it doesn't really retain any back spin, just skid? Would you get the same skid with center English?
 
If you put enough spin on it , and the OB is close enough to the rail , the spin is not stopped by the rail contact.

If thats what your asking.
 
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Kicks

OneIron said:
So if you play a one rail kick shot with bottom English and hit the OB full, the cue ball stops as if you hit it with no rail bottom. I know it works but don't quite understand why. Seems like the English would tend to reverse after hitting a rail or at least cancel out. I use this a lot in playing kick safeties. Any ideas?
Click to expand...

Actually I find just the opposite to be true.. When I kick to the center of the object ball I use top spin on the cue ball to stop it.. Like others said a lot depends on how close the object ball is to the rail.. If I use bottom spin on the cue ball it tends to roll forward on the same shot.. It's best to practice the shot close to see how the cue ball reacts.. Enjoy the game..
The Dster.
 
When struck with draw, after hitting the cushion the cueball stops spinning and slides towards object ball, effectively acting as though you struck a stop shot on the object ball. It is possible to put enough draw on the ball so that after striking the object ball the cueball will continue spinning past the object ball, although this requires maximal spin and minimal force when kicking. Similarly it is possible to have the cueball move back away from the object ball by using follow. To get the cueball to move either way more than a few inches requires maximal spin. If you kick with medium amounts of draw at normal speed the spin will be stopped by the cushion.
 
OneIron said:
So if you play a one rail kick shot with bottom English and hit the OB full, the cue ball stops as if you hit it with no rail bottom. I know it works but don't quite understand why. Seems like the English would tend to reverse after hitting a rail or at least cancel out. I use this a lot in playing kick safeties. Any ideas?
Click to expand...

To stop or draw on a kick...low ball works at 'long' angles.

If you want to stop the cue ball on a 'short' angle kick...
..you need to hit it high ball.

..both these reactions work best on fast, new cloth
 
I appreciate all of the responses. I guess it's time to spend a couple of hours working on this shot. Maybe hit a stripe into the rail at different speeds and angles and see what kind of spin it has on the rebound. Interesting...
 
RRfireblade said:
If you put enough spin on it , and the OB is close enough to the rail , the spin is not stopped by the rail contact.

If thats what your asking.
Click to expand...

But the spin would effectively be reversed since the cue ball is moving in the opposite direction off the rail. In other words, reverse spin into the rail becomes follow after the rail hit.
 
OneIron said:
I appreciate all of the responses. I guess it's time to spend a couple of hours working on this shot. Maybe hit a stripe into the rail at different speeds and angles and see what kind of spin it has on the rebound. Interesting...
Click to expand...
Good idea.

Experiment to determine how far a ball will skid after contacting a cushion from steep approach angles (angles from 70 to 90 degrees)... all at the same speed (medium). At shallow approach angles the cue ball behaves differently. Instead of skidding, it tends to induce english (side spin,,, running english) upon contact with the cushion.

Then vary the speed... amp it up a bit... the distance the ball skids should increase.

After establishing that relationship, then introduce draw at medium speed. Did the distance the ball skidded increase or decrease? Then try it at a greater speed. And so on.

Knowing the distances of skid will help you understand how best to stick whitely close to the rail when kicking one rail.

And I should add that the data you collect on one table will be slightly different than from another table due to changes in the cloth and the conditions of the cushions.
 
Hitting with draw, like a stop shot where the forward roll is cancelled by the back spin on the cue ball, allows the cue ball to skid off the rail with little to no spin. Depending on the distance from the rail, speed, angle and side spin determine any movement after the object ball is hit.

Using forward roll on a kick, allows the cue ball pick up spin off the rail as it rebounds. Again, depending on the distance, speed, spin and rebound angle, the cue ball does many different things.

Best,
Mike
 
RRfireblade said:
Thats is correct based in the direction of the CB rebounds off the rail and how far/much angle/etc.

Thanks to Dr Dave for this , 'classic' trick shot ....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJSHz09T464&feature=youtu.be
Click to expand...

It seems the only time I can get that action is when I use top english trying to get the cue ball to roll to the opposite end of the table. But when I try intentionally for that action, it doesn't happen. It's another shot I need to work on since it looks way cool when executed properly.
 
Mikjary said:
Hitting with draw, like a stop shot where the forward roll is cancelled by the back spin on the cue ball, allows the cue ball to skid off the rail with little to no spin. Depending on the distance from the rail, speed, angle and side spin determine any movement after the object ball is hit.

Using forward roll on a kick, allows the cue ball pick up spin off the rail as it rebounds. Again, depending on the distance, speed, spin and rebound angle, the cue ball does many different things.

Best,
Mike
Click to expand...

It's one of the things I love about the game. There's always something new to learn no matter how long you've played. It can be very satisfying but also very humbling.
 
Follow, draw, and center hits do not require English, although it may be applied.

English is side spin.

-s

/just sayin'
 
OneIron said:
So if you play a one rail kick shot with bottom English and hit the OB full, the cue ball stops as if you hit it with no rail bottom. I know it works but don't quite understand why. Seems like the English would tend to reverse after hitting a rail or at least cancel out. I use this a lot in playing kick safeties. Any ideas?
Click to expand...
FYI, here are some good videos on this topic:

Check them out. For more information (and additional videos), see:

Regards,
Dave
 
dr_dave said:
FYI, here are some good videos on this topic:

Check them out. For more information (and additional videos), see:

Regards,
Dave
Click to expand...

Thanks, Dave. It turns out I've been playing this shot incorrectly for a while using bottom but the cue ball slide off the rail has been saving me. I play primarily on Diamond tables with Simonis 860. This clarifies the shot as it should be played. Now for practice...
 
steev said:
Follow, draw, and center hits do not require English, although it may be applied.

English is side spin.

-s

/just sayin'
Click to expand...

Good call. I stand corrected. Found this on about.com:

Definition: When a cue ball is struck on either side of its vertical axis, giving it “side spin”. English may also occur when a ball collides with another or with a rail. The term comes from the British players who first became famous with sidespin techniques.
Topspin or draw spin (when the cue ball is struck high or low of center upon its vertical axis) also affects a ball, though many players mistakenly call these spins “english”. English is hitting the ball to promote sidespin.
 
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