Knowing your limitations by JoeyA

Matt90, this is a great thread. I like it!

Matt90 said:
Joey , I gotta say it . If all the threads on AZbilliards were held to this standard it would be a better world. This thread was fun and educational.
Lock, you were mentioned just because you are Legend !! Known from coast to coast .
This thread did not bash anyone ,any idea, or system .....this is what we need here people :thumbup::thumbup:
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Matt, you say the nicest things... This is a very good thread. I know 12, was kidding. You are a busy Bee, Mr. Matt! Thanks for the nice words. Let me know how you make out at the doctor? Thanks again.
Regards,
Lock N Load.
 
Nice post response, Jeff.

Jeff G. Martin said:
You're absolutely right. The only problem is someone still brings it up. "Yeah but you need ______ to execute this type of shot."

Anyway.....

This is an excellent thread. In the rare instance that I don't play perfect shape :thumbup:, sometimes I'm left with a low percentage shot, or getting shape is low percentage. That particular draw shot is very tough to get the same shape consistently. Knowing your limitations on this or any particular shot is very important and may require some discipline.
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I like what you say here, Jeff. About shots requiring discipline. And this being an Excellent thread!
Regards,
Lock N Load.
 
Defining one's own limitations is the smart thing to do so far as evaluating a shot making choice but if you fit yourself into a box of limitations too tightly, you might never realize your full potential. I suppose a person should just try to know what their limits are today and where they should push to expand those limits for tomorrow.

Mr. Wiggles, it was something about wrist movement - I can't remember now. :grin:

Joey, go for 11 diamonds.
 
Highmiles said:
I have tried off and on, for many years, to draw the ball on long shots. I set up like your diagram, but shoot further back, from the corner pocket. I can stop the cue ball, but that is it. I have tried with Shön, JossWest, Pechauer, Meucci, Espiritu, Stout, and Predator shafts. Same result. I had given it up as impossible. How far can you draw from that set up? If I could get one diamond, I would be a very happy man. Any suggestions?

9' table. 860 Simonis cloth

I guess that is the limitation I know.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stDX6aNPpQY

In my YouTube video at the 1:44 minute mark I shoot a jacked up draw shot a few inches off the rail and draw back fairly well and I'm just a B player. Same equipment tablewise but I'm using a predator 314/2 with stock tip.

Here is the thing: i couldn't do that shot when I really tried to force the power and speed. I had to stop trying to hit hard and really focus on the smoothness of the stroke and letting the gravity take the stick without pulling back on it.

It really doesn't look like I swung very hard on that shot because I didn't. Hope this helps.
 
I use to teach part time. Part of my initial introduction was know your limitations. Just because players have had some success with certain shots does not mean its a good shot to shoot as noted.

It should be noted as well that equipment and conditions plays a big roll on shot choice. The cue ball, cloth and rails are a big factor. Your draw stroke at home on good clean equipment will suffer in the real world. So don't take for granted what a table in great condition gives up.

The draw shot distance as shown is reasonable but few good players would shoot it as diagrammed. I'll assume you meant the illustration as a distance gauge and not necessarily exact ball placement.

Either way though you need to know your limitations during competetion. Good post Joey.

Rod
 
Rod said:
I use to teach part time. Part of my initial introduction was know your limitations. Just because players have had some success with certain shots does not mean its a good shot to shoot as noted.

It should be noted as well that equipment and conditions plays a big roll on shot choice. The cue ball, cloth and rails are a big factor. Your draw stroke at home on good clean equipment will suffer in the real world. So don't take for granted what a table in great condition gives up.

The draw shot distance as shown is reasonable but few good players would shoot it as diagrammed. I'll assume you meant the illustration as a distance gauge and not necessarily exact ball placement.

Either way though you need to know your limitations during competetion. Good post Joey.

Rod
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Absolutely correct. This is simply an exercise that makes you face your outter limitations, in addition to teaching you what your average capabilities are.

Luxury exhibited a great draw stroke where he hits a draw shot with beautiful draw from a long distance. I too can occasionally make the shot he illustrated in his video and I find it strange that my cue ball can travel little more than 10 diamonds total with the "jawed" object ball.

Below is a shot that Larry Nevel made famous but all I do is attempt to draw it back to the rail where I shoot it from. (I don't attempt to go three rails with the cue ball or more like Larry. :wink:)

CueTable Help



It's funny and I don't know why but I would bet a dollar to a doornail that I could make that shot which is 14 diamonds of cue ball travel length before I could make 11 diamonds of cue ball travel length with the jawed OB. I guess jacking up and shooting side arm has it's advantages.:D

UBC, your PM was GREAT!
Thanks,
JoeyA
 
JoeyA said:
A lot depends upon your equipment, the table you are playing on (cloth, size of pockets, type of pockets etc).

There are lots of drills that are designed to increase your proficiency but I think there is great merit in knowing just what your limitations are, so that you don't go there. For example, on tight pocket Diamond tables with worn cloth, I do not want to try and draw the cue ball four diamonds if the cue ball is already 6 diamonds away from the object ball. I'm just not consistent enough at that distance.

The same thing applies to those side English shots. You might be surprised at what you actually do and what you think you can do on the five ball shot below.

CueTable Help



With just side spin I can widen the angle more than I can with low right. I wouldn't have thought so until I tried this shot many different ways. Maybe it's the angle or maybe it's just my limitations. Anyway, I'm glad to practice the limitation exercises. It's kind of sobering for sure. :)

JoeyA
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I have been going to the table and using English that I don't normally use on certain shots and the results are eye-opening. I'm very surprised that no one responded to this particular diagram.

I did get one PM about it and the poster had a perfect understanding of why I received better results from just using side spin instead of Low Right English.

Mosconiac,
Did you discover any particular limitations you care to share?
 
I once had a bank pool lesson from John Brumback. After the session I asked him what he practiced. His response was "Extremes" he wanted to know how well he could execute extreme cuts and banks and be able to do them with confidence. I liked that response and incorporated it into my practice drills.

Your 'Limitations' thread is very similar.

IMO, You must know that your shots will have a chance of succeeding.
 
Limits

JoeyA said:
I am intrigued by limitation exercises. The side spin limitation exercises blew me away. The things you learn when you experiment. :)

Let me see your results. :wink:
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I guess I knew of limits to my draw but would not admit it. Now I know and won't waste those shots! I draw great and consistent at 3 di. About 50/50 at 4 di. At 5&6 di. Not too spiffy. Thank goodness I'm a pretty good spinner and that bails me out a lot. I have taught several low level players how to draw better and it really gives their game a boost. The draw and the stop are the two biggest shots in pool and if you dont own them your going nowhere slowly!
 
Mr. Wiggles said:
I guess I knew of limits to my draw but would not admit it. Now I know and won't waste those shots! I draw great and consistent at 3 di. About 50/50 at 4 di. At 5&6 di. Not too spiffy. Thank goodness I'm a pretty good spinner and that bails me out a lot. I have taught several low level players how to draw better and it really gives their game a boost. The draw and the stop are the two biggest shots in pool and if you dont own them your going nowhere slowly!
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Knowing what your own limitations are may give you some insight into knowing what your competitor's limitations are.

Sooooo, maybe you can't leave a good safety but you might just leave him a shot when playing a safety that will be just outside of his and your comfort zone, encouraging him to miss. Just make sure you don't underestimate your competitor's skills.
 
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Nice idea. I'm gonna try the first diagram. I ''feel'' I should be able to draw it back and even scratch in the corner pocket but the focus would be to hit it dead square but I'm not gonna say anything until I try. To be continued...
 
Jimbojim said:
Nice idea. I'm gonna try the first diagram. I ''feel'' I should be able to draw it back and even scratch in the corner pocket but the focus would be to hit it dead square but I'm not gonna say anything until I try. To be continued...
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Let me know how you do. I thought it wouldn't be that hard to draw it back to the head rail but was i in for a surprise.
 
Your wheel is good too!

JoeyA said:
Interesting Jay. Guess I just reinvented the wheel. :)
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I am sure if I googled the subject there would be many articles on it. The point is that, as a teacher, any subject matter has to be approached from many different angles in order for the student to learn. You have done just that. In my field, that is good work.

We've all heard the saying, or hopefully should have, that "you can only play what you practice." By doing that, you are learning your limitations. You have given some good practice. Hopefully students of the game expand on that by working other shots.

I am always amazed when I see players trying a shape that is physically impossible during tournament play. If you know the shot limitations, you know it is impossible and can plan for other strategy. The other strategy usually means, "Do I play safe on a makeable shot (with no shape) now, or do I play a safe on the next shot and where do I need to be to accomplish that." Which safety is the better percentage of getting BIH? Just because a shot is open and can be made, doesn't mean that it needs to be pocketed, especially if it can yield a high percentage lock-up safe.

SMOOOOTH - Thanks, hope the articles give some different angles on old ideas.
 
Ok JoeyA I set up this shot tonight and I gave it a few tries. I didn't remember where you put the CB so I put it on the first diamond on both the long and short rail which is even further away when I looked at your image again and I managed to draw the CB back exactly where I shot it after a few attempts.
 
Jimbojim said:
Ok JoeyA I set up this shot tonight and I gave it a few tries. I didn't remember where you put the CB so I put it on the first diamond on both the long and short rail which is even further away when I looked at your image again and I managed to draw the CB back exactly where I shot it after a few attempts.
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The object ball must go in the jaws of the pocket and you cannot hit the foot rail or the side rail when you draw the cue ball. The cue ball is set anywhere in the kitchen. Still, it sounds like you have a great draw. One of our local champions made the draw shot to the head rail in the kitchen on the third try, with my cue. :embarrassed2: Guess I need some practice.


JoeyA
 
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