LA Keith McCready vs Buddy Hall - You Be The Judge

[Neil]

How was out the opposite? It pretty much backed up everything CJ has preached here. I'm not trying to be confrontational, but let's start the discussion and see if we can learn more. How's do you see keith's post as opposite of what CJ teaches?

Well, first you have to read the quote I was referring to. It had nothing to do with TOI. It had to do with Keith using up to 8 different speeds of stroke. CJ has advocated many times to use just one speed of stroke.

Now, if you do want to get into the TOI part, CJ said that Keith used it 99% of the time. Keith says he uses it when he wants to kill the cb. Far less than what CJ recommends to use it. (which is almost every shot)

 

[Cardigan Kid]

I don't know about opposite, Neil, but I kinda agree, in a way.

Keith uses inside for cue-ball control for position...so does Efren.
CJ uses it more for ball making consistency.

'course, I may stand corrected....nah, that wouldn't happen here, would it?

I always read CJs TOI to be both about about making consistency (regarding pocket acceptance spin from the inside English hit) and cue ball positioning (floating the cue ball from rail to rail instead of unreliable spin and table conditions). Even in the first rack, the announcer predicts Keith is going to hit low outside to bring the cue ball one rail back for position, but instead he uses high inside to go three rails around for position on the short side.

I also see it as confirmation that TOI, although not the only shot needed, it's a system that's pretty reliable in most of the position shots you'll see.

 

[CJ Wiley]

We all stand on each other's shoulders to reach new heights of wisdom

I don't know about opposite, Neil, but I kinda agree, in a way.

Keith uses inside for cue-ball control for position...so does Efren.
CJ uses it more for ball making consistency.

'course, I may stand corrected....nah, that wouldn't happen here, would it?

To learn TOI it requires changing your "old way" of thinking and playing. I teach this by introducing the game to people in a new way, using TOI on EVERY SHOT.....and using one shot speed to play the entire game with.....this can be done, however, it requires some sudden changes in attitude.

TOI is great for "ball making consistency," and what's I've pointed out time and time again is how the cue ball reacts after contact......it "floats" into position, we use to say "he's got it on a string" because that's the optical illusion that TOI gives the cue-ball. Efren called it the "NO SPIN" (after contact) and Mike Lebron (who was Efren's right hand man) told me Efren used "a touch of inside".

That's what I had discovered too. Vernon Elliot, Omaha John, and Weldon Rogers also used this technique in their own way (the TOI was not considered a system/technique, it was a way of playing).....there's many ways that a player will conform TOI to their own game, however, it does require changing old ideas, and attitudes for new ones.

We all stand on each other's shoulders to reach new heights. I had the opportunity to stand on some of the greatest player's shoulders at an early age and I've always given them credit for my development as a player and even as a person. Without learning from seasoned "road players" this type of information was not passed on - until now.

'The Game is Our Teacher'

 

[West Point 1987]

Ask yourself this question...when you have the choice, what do you prefer? What's your default comfort address, that's most reliable for you? 20 degree cut shot to the corner pocket, CB in center of table...you can use low outside to draw across the table and off the side rail, or follow with TOI, coming straight up the table off the foot rail. Both work, which do you prefer?

Everyone does what's necessary to make the shot and get the CB in the vicinity of where it needs to be...sometimes there is only one path that works, and you have to use what gets the CB there. But more often than not, there's choices. Most players I know prefer using the outside of the CB ("helping English") and plan to run off the rails into position. Some players prefer to play it tighter, with shallower angles off balls and rails. For me, TOI keeps the CB on a much tighter leash, and I don't tend to over-run leaves. It's simply more predictable, more reliable for me. When I gotta use outside, I do. There are no absolutes to any of this, just preference and what you end up trusting more.

 

[Neil]

I always read CJs TOI to be both about about making consistency (regarding pocket acceptance spin from the inside English hit) and cue ball positioning (floating the cue ball from rail to rail instead of unreliable spin and table conditions). Even in the first rack, the announcer predicts Keith is going to hit low outside to bring the cue ball one rail back for position, but instead he uses high inside to go three rails around for position on the short side.

I also see it as confirmation that TOI, although not the only about needed, it's a system that's pretty reliable in most of the position shots you'll see.

You have me wondering what you are talking about here.... You use an example of Keith going three rails using high inside, and it seems you are referring this to TOI. That is not TOI. Just because someone uses inside english, it is not TOI. TOI is using a slight amount of inside english to cancel the contact induced spin,and keep the cb on it's natural angle. That is all. ( leaving out the deflection part for aiming) Any more spin than that is just inside english.

 

[Cardigan Kid]

You have me wondering what you are talking about here.... You use an example of Keith going three rails using high inside, and it seems you are referring this to TOI. That is not TOI. Just because someone uses inside english, it is not TOI. TOI is using a slight amount of inside english to cancel the contact induced spin,and keep the cb on it's natural angle. That is all. ( leaving out the deflection part for aiming) Any more spin than that is just inside english.

From what I saw, because of the angle, the inside cancels and it becomes a follow shot, therefore no extra spin needed. I just used it as an example of an expected shot which was done using TOI to take an alternate route. And isn't that really the benefit of TOI? Added shot making spin on object ball with the throw, while decreased unnecessary spin on cue ball.

So yes, it was high inside, but that's what TOI can be if you use a half tip more than what will cancel out by the object ball.

At least that's how I read CJs dvd to say.

 

[Banks]

Why is it that any time somebody uses a little inside, it's suddenly CJ's patented "TOI" "system". Seriously, this is ridiculous. Don't even get me started on the idea that "it's not english." Also, how is it that anybody can play for a decade or more and have not seen how pocketing english works and how you can hold up the CB? Then again, when I first joined, I remember a lot of people claiming that you couldn't transfer spin for a bank.

 

[CJ Wiley]

You can play pool without trying to master the inside, you can't master the game

There's a lot of positive side-effects from going through the TOI Training. One of them is that you become very confident when using the inside of the cue-ball.

Another positive side-effect of TOI Training is to familiarize yourself with natural angles with no spin......these natural angles will naturally align to your sub-conscious mind and open up a new deminsion of pool that will otherwise be hidden.

TOI is the only way I've found to teach players how their subconscious can connect to their pool game in a much more profound way. Champion players don't "aim," they have a "feel for the pocket," and create angles to hit the 3 sections of the pocket.

You can play pool without trying to master the inside, however, you can't master the game with that attitude. Mastering the game requires an understanding of the "inside foundation" so you have a reference to all pool shots.....a natural reference with no spin - if you need to change this angle you can if necessary, and you will be able to do this even better using the "base reference" of 'The Touch of Inside' - The Game is the Teacher

From what I saw, because of the angle, the inside cancels and it becomes a follow shot, therefore no extra spin needed. I just used it as an example of an expected shot which was done using TOI to take an alternate route. And isn't that really the benefit of TOI? Added shot making spin on object ball with the throw, while decreased unnecessary spin on cue ball.

So yes, it was high inside, but that's what TOI can be if you use a half tip more than what will cancel out by the object ball.

At least that's how I read CJs dvd to say.

 

[CJ Wiley]

the champion players have found their own way of blending them together

Well, shape is mostly only useful when you make the ball, so the two (ball-making and position) basically go together. There's no inherent contradiction.

There are 3 components to every shot that comes up in a pool game. Most beginner/intermediate and even advanced players try to separate them......the champion players have found their own way of blending them together.....we all do this differently, but there are common denominators that can be learned by anyone willing.

1) Tip Targeting (where your tip will contact the cue-ball)

2) Cue Speed (the speed your cue moves to transfer the tip to the cue-ball)

3) Shot Angle - the angle that is created from connecting the cue-ball to the object ball.

TOI teaches a player how to blend these three components together. You try to use one shot speed, you target the inside of the cue-ball (left when cutting to the left, right when cutting to the right).....and by aligning to either the Center of Edge (cuing to the inside) you can create any angle necessary to play pool at your highest level of performance.

With the new shot knowledge you will gain by going through the TOI Training you will have a much better opportunity to develop your own personal style.

 

[Mikjary]

Here's a link from another thread. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsHAG8YrXG8&feature=player_detailpage#t=1612

Keith crosses over the cue ball to the inside and firmly kills his cue ball with a similar system to TOI. The 6 and 7 balls are good examples to watch. Very quick, but there.

Best,
Mike

I guess you can read into it what ever you want to support your cause. He actually said the opposite of what CJ has been saying.

See my first post. I understood Keith to say he uses speed control for his touch and control of the cue ball. This is the basic premise of TOI. If you used it instead of bashing it, you would have a clue about the content of this thread.

I use a medium firm stroke for as many shots as possible using TOI depending on my position. I'm constantly having to shoot different distances which causes me to pick up my speed slightly or lessen it to get the position I need. If I didn't do this, swerve would change my angle and cue ball reaction.

It's obvious to me as I speed up or slow down my stroke, but to an outside observer, it would look like mainly a medium firm stroke.

Keith, if I may, introduced a similar type of stroke with his additional techniques. Adding this valuable info is a plus to the TOI school of knowledge, not the opposite of what we've been discussing for months. But who cares? Go ahead and try to ruin this thread before we can get a good discussion going. A champion comes on here to give a boost to CJ, you feel threatened and away we go...or how about just you going and let us discuss our delusional TOI?



I'd like to thank Keith for giving up a major bit of info about his game. This, to me, is actually huge! I've discussed exactly what CJ and Keith gave up for years with many players. I'd like to know more if Keith would like to talk about it.

Best,
Mike

PS TOI is all about the position. Making the shot is the first part of the equation. A controllable rock is everything.

 

[Banks]

PS TOI is all about the position. Making the shot is the first part of the equation. A controllable rock is everything.

It's all about english, no matter what "some people" want to call it. CB control has always been the name of the game and outside english has always had its drawbacks for pocketing. Somebody just took inside, renamed it and called it an aiming system when it isn't.

Next, there will be a "jumping" system.. or maybe it'll be called Surface-To-Air.. and suddenly somebody can run around and claim all people use it that have a jump cue.

 

[Cardigan Kid]

Hahaha, awesome, Mike! You said it all right there. And yes, how huge is THAT, Keith effin McCready makes an entrance with inside information. The learning is vast, if one can wade through the naysayers.

 

[CJ Wiley]

TOI keeps the CB on a much tighter leash, for better position under pressure

Yes, TOI does keep the cue-ball from getting away and that's probably it was always prefered by the great money players. When betting really high you want the cue-ball to feel as heavy (relatively) as possible so nerves don't effect your abilities.

You're an advanced player and have a great understanding of TOI.

When dealing with intermediate players it's important to build a strong pre shot routine that naturally builds the TOI fundamentals into the procedure.

This doesn't take long and within 3 weeks an intermediate can turn advanced if they're willing to apply the TOI principles correctly. Beginners are really lucky if they find this technique before they develop any poor fundamentals and learn correctly from the start.

Ask yourself this question...when you have the choice, what do you prefer? What's your default comfort address, that's most reliable for you? 20 degree cut shot to the corner pocket, CB in center of table...you can use low outside to draw across the table and off the side rail, or follow with TOI, coming straight up the table off the foot rail. Both work, which do you prefer?

Everyone does what's necessary to make the shot and get the CB in the vicinity of where it needs to be...sometimes there is only one path that works, and you have to use what gets the CB there. But more often than not, there's choices. Most players I know prefer using the outside of the CB ("helping English") and plan to run off the rails into position. Some players prefer to play it tighter, with shallower angles off balls and rails. For me, TOI keeps the CB on a much tighter leash, and I don't tend to over-run leaves. It's simply more predictable, more reliable for me. When I gotta use outside, I do. There are no absolutes to any of this, just preference and what you end up trusting more.

 

[Banks]

The learning is vast, if one can wade through the naysayers.

Or wade through the fluff.

 

[Cardigan Kid]

It's all about english, no matter what "some people" want to call it. CB control has always been the name of the game and outside english has always had its drawbacks for pocketing. Somebody just took inside, renamed it and called it an aiming system when it isn't.

Next, there will be a "jumping" system.. or maybe it'll be called Surface-To-Air.. and suddenly somebody can run around and claim all people use it that have a jump cue.

I really can see what you're saying, but it's clear you haven't watched the dvd, our you would at least see that it's not a gimmick. Its really a radical approach to the game that breaks the rules a bit. And in return, consistency rises above all. That's what I noticed after almost a month using TOI.

The best analogy CJ uses is the business analogy, that instead of having many businesses that take time and energy to run right, it's better to have a select few and run them the best you can. with TOI, it brings your shot selection to a base where you can improve on and do extremely well, instead of using valuable brain power and energy deciding on the various shot selections for a particular layout.

From there, it becomes part of your subconscious.

 

[Banks]

I really can see what you're saying, but it's clear you haven't watched the dvd, our you would at least see that it's not a gimmick. Its really a radical approach to the game that breaks the rules a bit. And in return, consistency rises above all. That's what I noticed after almost a month using TOI.

The best analogy CJ uses is the business analogy, that instead of having many businesses that take time and energy to run right, it's better to have a select few and run them the best you can. with TOI, it brings your shot selection to a base where you can improve on and do extremely well, instead of using valuable brain power and energy deciding on the various shot selections for a particular layout.

From there, it becomes part of your subconscious.

That's a poor answer for everything.. "watch the dvd", "read the bible", etc.

It's always been best to keep things simple.

This is why these things belong in the A.S. section.. because it's annoying to see these repeated sales pitches and they have absolutely no shame going about it.

 

[Cardigan Kid]

That's a poor answer for everything.. "watch the dvd", "read the bible", etc.

It's always been best to keep things simple.

This is why these things belong in the A.S. section.. because it's annoying to see these repeated sales pitches and they have absolutely no shame going about it.

Well that's a poor attitude to have if you ever want to advance in any field. If your general field of interest was religion, I'm sure reading the bible would be an interest.

And if your interest is the game of pool, you should be craving any and all information possible, especially from real champion high caliber players. I try to soak up everything I can. For example, I read the book "essential pool" by hall of famer Babe Cranfield, it's very basic, but there are some gems of information there, some I already knew, but still nice to hear it in the words of a hall of famer and world champion.

So it's not a sales pitch if you genuinely love the game and want to learn.

At least look into it, then write it off, because in my experience looking into it may just lead to one very useful description of a shot that might just get you out in a crucial game someday.

 

[Mikjary]

It's all about english, no matter what "some people" want to call it. CB control has always been the name of the game and outside english has always had its drawbacks for pocketing. Somebody just took inside, renamed it and called it an aiming system when it isn't.

Next, there will be a "jumping" system.. or maybe it'll be called Surface-To-Air.. and suddenly somebody can run around and claim all people use it that have a jump cue.

It's about english and cue ball control is the name of the game. You're so right, but I think outside spin is great for pocketing balls. I use it quite a bit. TOI isn't an aiming system. It's like PSR, CIT, BIH, APA or TE9ball...it's about the internet and exchanging information to get a point across. Easy to do in person, but tough on a monitor.

Is it TOI you have a problem with, or is it the jargon? We'll just call it inside spin from now on. If anybody on this forum, from now on wants to eliminate the acronym known as TOI...click this button and it will never appear on your computer, again.



Problem solved!

Best,
Mike

 

[Neil]

See my first post. I understood Keith to say he uses speed control for his touch and control of the cue ball. This is the basic premise of TOI. If you used it instead of bashing it, you would have a clue about the content of this thread.

I use a medium firm stroke for as many shots as possible using TOI depending on my position. I'm constantly having to shoot different distances which causes me to pick up my speed slightly or lessen it to get the position I need. If I didn't do this, swerve would change my angle and cue ball reaction.

It's obvious to me as I speed up or slow down my stroke, but to an outside observer, it would look like mainly a medium firm stroke.

Keith, if I may, introduced a similar type of stroke with his additional techniques. Adding this valuable info is a plus to the TOI school of knowledge, not the opposite of what we've been discussing for months. But who cares? Go ahead and try to ruin this thread before we can get a good discussion going. A champion comes on here to give a boost to CJ, you feel threatened and away we go...or how about just you going and let us discuss our delusional TOI?

View attachment 338337

I'd like to thank Keith for giving up a major bit of info about his game. This, to me, is actually huge! I've discussed exactly what CJ and Keith gave up for years with many players. I'd like to know more if Keith would like to talk about it.

Best,
Mike

PS TOI is all about the position. Making the shot is the first part of the equation. A controllable rock is everything.

Well, Mike, maybe YOU should try reading once in a while instead of condeming right off the bat. Or is it just that after all your worship of TOI, you still don't even understand what in the heck it even is? TOI IS NOT JUST USING INSIDE ENGLISH! In fact, CJ has stated many times that using inside ENGLISH is not TOI.

In case you have missed it, CJ has stated many, many times, even stated it TODAY, that TOI uses ONE speed. Keith is advocating up to 8 speeds. Not similar in the least.

But, you go right ahead and associate any use of inside with TOI if it makes you feel better. No need to actually know what you are actually talking about. Just so you do your usual suck-up to CJ.

I'm constantly having to shoot different distances which causes me to pick up my speed slightly or lessen it to get the position I need. If I didn't do this, swerve would change my angle and cue ball reaction.

Your paragraph above is proof in and of itself that you don't even really understand what you are talking about. I was gone for a while today, and intended to explain in detail to the other poster about his question. Congrats, you just used up that time of mine by having to respond to your nonsense once again. So, once again, instead of actually adding something to the thread, all you have done is turn it into another bashing thread. Good job.

 

[Mikjary]

That's a poor answer for everything.. "watch the dvd", "read the bible", etc.

It's always been best to keep things simple.

This is why these things belong in the A.S. section.. because it's annoying to see these repeated sales pitches and they have absolutely no shame going about it.

Why are you even here in this thread? To contribute or keep us from discussing the OP's point?

Best,
Mike