Labor upcharge for Simonis vs. quote for invitational?

C

crafty

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Just curious if it is typical to add another hour or more of labor because of one cloth being used vs. another. More specifically, I had a quote to have a table re-clothed and asked what is recommended, he said go with Invitational Teflon, and when I asked if that was the best I could get, he mentioned Simonis is the standard but quite a bit more expensive at $250 vs. $125 for the Inv. Teflon, but no extra charge mentioned for labor. So I Google, find this excellent site, and read testimonial after testimonial saying Simonis 860HR all the way, pretty unanimous. Given how much I am already spending to have the table moved and reclothed, if I don't like the Inv. cloth I am out the $125 it cost to get rid of it and duplicate labor to recloth again, even though the budget is tight why not just spend the $145 up front and get the best? I have rarely regretted getting the best, even when I had to go with out food for a little while :). Anyway, when I talked to him to ask for the 860HR instead, there is now an up charge for what I am guessing is another hour of labor to install the Simonis, due to what I am told is different cutting technique (scissoring instead of something else), a few other things about stretching worsted cloth is harder, and finally that with special order, expensive cloth it is measure twice and cut once so that takes longer.

Now, he sounds like a real nice guy and to know what he is talking about, but as I have almost no idea of what I am listening to, he could be right on, or could be taking me for a ride. Given I don't know him and don't have any references (other than a local table store that I don't know, which could be due to price or quality or even both, who knows), I don't have much to go on. As my pappy used to say, a fool and his money are soon parted, so I figured I would check with some other pros.

I want to find a good mechanic that is fair, and I don't mind paying more for quality and expertise, but I don't want to pay more because I am being suckered because it is assumed I have $ to burn because I wanted the better cloth. I plan to have a lot more work done as I can afford it(new rails is perhaps the next step before a new table, maybe a restoration, dunno yet), and don't have ton's of money to burn, so am hoping to build a relationship with a mechanic I can trust. My first bill is now estimated to be over $600 vs. the original $395 quote with Inv. cloth, nothing else is different (tear a table down, move table 3 miles, rebuild and level the table, and recloth with Tourney Blue 860HR), so basically I am just looking for a little help to see if everything is lookin' OK with the story before I drop that kind of cash. After the first transaction, I should be OK with the trust thing (or have a horror story :/), but this is a lot of cash for me to drop so trying to reduce the risk a bit.

I am getting back into the sport after 20 years and this the first table I or anyone in my family has ever owned, and I am really excited, but the work is now going to cost the same as the table did, and now I am a bit nervous I am getting into something I don't understand enough. Thats fine if it is worth it, I know the choice of mechanic can make or break a table after what I have read here, but don't know much more than that.

As a side note, if it matters I am getting basically a new (except a stain on the cloth) AH Bordeaux 8' that the owner paid $3K for just wanted to get rid of after never using it for 3 years, so I got a great deal. I figure I can use it to get back into the game while I am saving for something better.

Thanks in advance for any advice!!

P.S. checked the directory and no mechanics in my state or even the one next door listed :(.
 
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I think most mech's would agree that Simonis & other worsted cloths are indeed more difficult to install correctly, meaning no wrinkles, stretch marks, etc. That being said, if the guy is experienced he should still have no trouble installing Simonis.
I personally enjoy working with Simonis because I know that it is a quality product and I know what to expect out of it every time. As far as the upcharge, that is BS IMHO. If he knows what he's doing there is no reason why it would take him an extra hour to install Simonis vs anything else! How much is the upcharge for labor?
 
crafty said:
Just curious if it is typical to add another hour or more of labor because of one cloth being used vs. another. ....
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Agree with Jack -
cloth is cloth and IMO it's a ripoff for someone wanting to charge more based on brand.
Whether it's Invitational or 860HR it gets stretched and installed the same way altho Simonis
or any worsted cloth takes a bit more muscle to stretch.

I'll make a note here that Simonis pricing has been the same for 860, 760 or 860HR in the past.
With the recent overall Simonis price increase HR is now higher priced than 860 or 760.
 
Thanks guys! The up-charge was $75 on labor alone, just got back with me this AM and the the total went from $395 for everything with Invitational to $615 with everything with 860HR, while last night pretty sure he said that the upcharge was gonna be $55, which is where my new total price in my OP for $595 came from. The quoted price for the Inv. cloth was $125, so the labor on moving and reclothing labor was $270. Adding back $270 for the 860HR materials (including shipping and tax) is $540, and then $75 was added for swapping cloth types for a total of $615. I figure either I was under quoted for the overall deal the first time or there was some margin on the Inv. (which he stocks), and with the move to special order 860HR, he made up for the margin loss with the $75 up charge. Or, I am being fleeced (no pun intended :D). I was guessing that $75 was the hourly rate, but from what I have read here that may be a bit high, so maybe a bit longer than an hour? Assuming he is a good mechanic, is the $615 reasonable for the above?

As far as his experience, he did say 95% of his installs are for a local store (the store does tables, pools, spas, etc.), and that pretty much all of those are Inv. cloth. BUT, most of his experience is with AH tables and their relatively weird design, which is why I figured he would be a good bet to build this table well.

Any references for a mechanic in the KCMO area :)?
 
Simonis upcharge

It sounds to me like he just doesn't want to do the Simonis, and is trying to make it expensive enough that you won't want it. Simonis costs more to buy, and is harder to do right, but shouldn't take an hour longer to install and the extra time and charge for cutting the cloth makes no sense at all. He doesn't stock it in bolts, so it will likely come to him in one table, already cut. Bottom line, if you want Simonis and he's not comfortable doing it, hopefully you can find someone who is.
 
The store he works for is where he buys the Invitational cloth from, so he's getting it at cost. The store don't buy much Simonis, therefore they don't stock it on the shelf...so, they have to order it in...in which case, they're pricing it to make some kind of profit from the cloth...along with labor. Just ask the guy...reguardless of what kind of cloth is being used...what is the labor cost....separate from cloth. If you need to...after pointing out the "labor" cost...offer to purchase your own Simonis...so he don't have to...then see how his story changes...maybe even to the point that for YOU....it's going to cost you a lot more if you purchase it on your own....so his deal is better for you....or if you purchase your own Simonis...it's going to be a deal breaker...and you'll have to look for someone else to do the work.

Labor is labor....material cost is just that, and has nothing to do with the labor required to install what ever the cloth may be;)
 
RackemBilliards said:
It sounds to me like he just doesn't want to do the Simonis, and is trying to make it expensive enough that you won't want it. Simonis costs more to buy, and is harder to do right, but shouldn't take an hour longer to install and the extra time and charge for cutting the cloth makes no sense at all. He doesn't stock it in bolts, so it will likely come to him in one table, already cut. Bottom line, if you want Simonis and he's not comfortable doing it, hopefully you can find someone who is.
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He is the one that told me Simonis is the best, but I don't suppose that means the same as wanting to install it :). It doesn't sound like he has ever used HR before either, but I don't expect that would be much different than 860 which he has done.

The over all labor for the move including installing new cloth works out to be $345, that sounds reasonable(?) I think for what he said was 4 to 5 hours worth of work. When I asked about installing new rails, using rubber that costs $75 (generic, he didn't know the brand), the price went up to $945 and to an all day job. $33 a rail was what he quoted on labor, but that doesn't add up either, because I come out to $888, not $945. Maybe he just isn't great at math where I am not gonna judge, but then I wonder about the measuring :D. Either way, it is making me nervous, especially with no references.

As I said before, I have no problem paying a mechanic what he is worth, I don't want to short change someone earning their living, but I don't want to be bent over either.

I found a great deal on Artemis cushions on poolfelt.com, so maybe I can just get everything there and just talk about labor, and look for references for other mechanics. I have no issue with paying a mechanic every penny of what he is worth, but I also don't want him doing stuff he doesn't feel comfortable doing.

On a side note, I was just browsing around looking for furniture type tables (the compromise with the wife for being able to get a table in the house and putting it in the formal dining room, we don't even have a dining set, so WTH, right?), and I saw pics of a Kling which I feel in love with, what a beautiful table! Then I started looking for one for sale, and SOB, wow they are expensive, figures :).

I see we posted at the same time, thanks for the advice King Cobra, I think I shall give a shot to providing the parts and see how the price works out, that will certainly make it easier to keep the stories straight.
 
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Ok, so besides your mechanic not knowing how to do math, the price you are getting is a good deal.

Paying $615 to disassemble, move, reassemble, and refelt a pool table with Simonis? That is a very good deal, I would charge $700 to move a table with Simonis, and that is just a base price. I am not giving my customer cloth at cost, I will sell it at MAP pricing. I am in the business of making money, people don't seem to get that, why sell cloth at cost?
 
ChesapeakeBlrds said:
Ok, so besides your mechanic not knowing how to do math, the price you are getting is a good deal.

Paying $615 to disassemble, move, reassemble, and refelt a pool table with Simonis? That is a very good deal, I would charge $700 to move a table with Simonis, and that is just a base price. I am not giving my customer cloth at cost, I will sell it at MAP pricing. I am in the business of making money, people don't seem to get that, why sell cloth at cost?
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what if the owner purchases the cloth prior to the install ...do you charge extra for the difference in profit you would have made on the cloth purchase?
 
Well, I just got off of the phone with the mechanic, and got everything straightened out. Basically, when I first spoke to him, he was on a job and not in front of a computer, a piece of paper, or anything to work out the details, and I was asking different questions to get an idea of how much I could afford (new rails, different cloths, etc.). Things just got confused and he under quoted me a bit. I had no idea on labor costs so was trying to see what makes sense to do what when without duplicating labor or having to throw cloth away, while also understanding the budget, and I do tend to talk fast I am told, so I can certainly see how I confused the hell out of things. He also said that he was cutting me a deal off of the top of his head, but he accidentally did a pretty big one.

I am totally comfortable with paying for quality, and not wheeling and dealing for it. I figure if I am cutting corners (no pun intended again :)) on paying someone for a service, it would only be fair to cut corners on the service provided, and I don't want that. I told him that as well, just quote me what it costs and I will figure out if it is worth it to me, and I can afford, to get new rails or just deal with the ones, I have for now, etc.

He confirmed he has no problem with 860 and he does still do it pretty frequently, but that he hadn't yet used HR, but it doesn't sound like it will be a big difference, so that should matter.

Before I could even bring it up, he also asked if I wanted to just order the cloth and other materials myself, I would save on tax over the internet, etc., so I said sure. That also keeps it simple, I can do my shopping around on materials, learn about the different qualities of this that and the other and the typical pricing, so that by the time I call him I have either picked, or really narrowed it down and he can give his advice, thereby saving his time in educating me. With only labor to deal with, it keeps things simple, and he can charge what he thinks he should charge, fine with me, I don't want to take money out of his pocket because margin is part of his living.

He sounds like a good guy, and he shot pretty straight with me on what happened and I respect that. I like to think I am an OK judge of character, and he sounds like a guy I can trust.

Thanks all for the advice, it really helped me work out things and feel OK about dropping the initial chunk of change on this. Assuming things work out, can I get his name added to the directory, or is there something he would have to do, or ? I would like to help out the next guy in my neck of the woods looking for a referral.

Now to call about ordering me some cloth!
 
matteroner said:
what if the owner purchases the cloth prior to the install ...do you charge extra for the difference in profit you would have made on the cloth purchase?
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Honestly, I can't stand being "nickle'd and dime'd" on service, I sell at MAP price, if someone is selling it cheaper online, let me know where and I will personally jump down there throat. If a customer wants to order his own cloth go ahead, but he is spending the exact same amount of money as someone elsewhere, as I will charge the same for labor.

What's annoying is when someone tries to haggle my price for service, I always want to respond with, well if I do it for less do I get to do less work? It's a damn insult to ask someone to be cheaper on physical labor, product is one thing, labor is completely different.
 
ChesapeakeBlrds said:
Honestly, I can't stand being "nickle'd and dime'd" on service, I sell at MAP price, if someone is selling it cheaper online, let me know where and I will personally jump down there throat. If a customer wants to order his own cloth go ahead, but he is spending the exact same amount of money as someone elsewhere, as I will charge the same for labor.

What's annoying is when someone tries to haggle my price for service, I always want to respond with, well if I do it for less do I get to do less work? It's a damn insult to ask someone to be cheaper on physical labor, product is one thing, labor is completely different.
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there are people on this site that sell below MAP .....go get em' ....I posted a thread and got it 20% off ....I can't stand price fixing ...and will do anything to get around it ...Simonis is a great product, but I fail to see the advantage of fixing the price ....they don't make any more money ....and their is no competition among sellers ....

I was just asking if you increase your labor cost because you are not making the profit on the cloth sale.....as for your labor costs i don't think you can argue with any price ....

in fact I bet people who charge $1000 for an install will get it ... because subconsciously people think you get what you pay for ...which may or may not be true.
 
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