lack of fundamentals or lack of practice?

[BC21]

Perhaps I‘m misunderstanding.

But surely you’re not saying that you believe that anyone, who simply has the desire and is willing to put in the time and effort can master pool, or anything else for that matter, to the professional level?


There was a guy years ago named Dan McLaughlin. He wanted to put to the test the 10,000 hour theory. That anybody who devoted 10,000 hours of intense, dedicated, purposeful practice to something could achieve mastery of that thing. He decided to apply it to Golf. He documented his journey along the way and called it The Dan Plan.

He quit his job and spent the next six or seven years doing nothing but trying to learn to play golf with the goal of gaining his card on the PGA tour.

The short story is that he never came close. If I remember correctly he got down to about a 2 or 3 handicap. A decent player to be sure, but not even all that good by amateur standards. I know some injuries impacted his ability to continue, but even so, those who know golf and followed him and his progress understand that he simply didn’t have the tools to play at that level no matter how hard he tried and worked.

Again, I’m certainly not saying that there aren’t people who aren’t capable of extraordinary improvement and might even be able to get to the professional level. But there are far more that simply cannot.

In bold... yes, that's what I'm saying. But creating exceptional talents and skills requires more than just desire and effort. A person must also acquire the knowledge needed to master whatever it is they're trying to do, and they must have access to opportunity, to the resources needed in order to work on the skills/talents they wish to develop.

With exception of physical or mental handicaps, any person who has the desire and puts in the effort, along with the willingness to gather knowledge and the opportunity/resources to practice that knowledge, can master the skill or talent they're wanting to master. Performing at a pro level is combination of mastered skills and mental/emotional control.

The reason why it's so uncommon is because it's easier said than done. Most people reach stage 1 pretty easily - desire. People are always saying "I want to learn how to play a guitar", or a piano, or play pool or golf or chess or whatever. And that's about as far as they get - they want it... they desire it. The rest involves work, sacrifice, time, dedication, determination, perseverance, etc.... And that's where the excuses come in.

I've read about the guy who tested the 10,000 hr rule and how it wasn't enough for him. Here's the thing: For some it might take just 3,000 hrs. For others it might take 20,000. The difference is likely in how they practice, and how they deal with their emotions and mental challenges.

Most people, when they begin to reach a higher skill level (higher than all their friends or peers), tend to settle into the habit of practicing things they've already learned, things they're already good at doing, rather than pushing the limits and going another step beyond.

I find myself doing this on guitar or piano, wasting 30min playing licks I've already mastered, because they sound awesome and it's fun. But that doesn't make me better, doesn't help me reach the next level. But it's easy. I find myself doing it with pool also.

The reason why we do this is because it's easy to look around and say, "I'm pretty good...better than most...and that's good enough for now."

But content isn't the road that leads to improvement. It's more like a parking lot that keeps you where you are.

 

[David in FL]

In bold... yes, that's what I'm saying. But creating exceptional talents and skills requires more than just desire and effort. A person must also acquire the knowledge needed to master whatever it is they're trying to do, and they must have access to opportunity, to the resources needed in order to work on the skills/talents they wish to develop.

With exception of physical or mental handicaps, any person who has the desire and puts in the effort, along with the willingness to gather knowledge and the opportunity/resources to practice that knowledge, can master the skill or talent they're wanting to master. Performing at a pro level is combination of mastered skills and mental/emotional control.

The reason why it's so uncommon is because it's easier said than done. Most people reach stage 1 pretty easily - desire. People are always saying "I want to learn how to play a guitar", or a piano, or play pool or golf or chess or whatever. And that's about as far as they get - they want it... they desire it. The rest involves work, sacrifice, time, dedication, determination, perseverance, etc.... And that's where the excuses come in.

I've read about the guy who tested the 10,000 hr rule and how it wasn't enough for him. Here's the thing: For some it might take just 3,000 hrs. For others it might take 20,000. The difference is likely in how they practice, and how they deal with their emotions and mental challenges.

Most people, when they begin to reach a higher skill level (higher than all their friends or peers), tend to settle into the habit of practicing things they've already learned, things they're already good at doing, rather than pushing the limits and going another step beyond.

I find myself doing this on guitar or piano, wasting 30min playing licks I've already mastered, because they sound awesome and it's fun. But that doesn't make me better, doesn't help me reach the next level. But it's easy. I find myself doing it with pool also.

The reason why we do this is because it's easy to look around and say, "I'm pretty good...better than most...and that's good enough for now."

But content isn't the road that leads to improvement. It's more like a parking lot that keeps you where you are.

If that were the case, how do you explain the thousands and thousands of people who devote a lifetime towards their sport.

The golfers, baseball players, basketball players, football players, and tennis players whose sole purpose and only goal in life is to turn their passion into a professional career, but fall far short short?

The +3 handicap golfers who beat themselves to death playing on mini tours in the hopes of one day making it to PGA Tour, never to even come close to qualifying. The baseball players who never make it to the show even though they played for top division one teams and were drafted into professional farm teams.

The athletes whose only goal in life is to make it to the Olympics in their sport, but never get there.

What do you tell these thousands of people? That they just didn’t want it bad enough? That they didn’t try hard enough? That if only they had changed their attitude…?

I’m sorry, but no. Simply wanting it and a willingness to put in the time just isn’t always enough. Actually, it’s never enough. It’s certainly part of the equation, but not even close to the whole thing.

 

[FranCrimi]

Perhaps I‘m misunderstanding.

But surely you’re not saying that you believe that anyone, who simply has the desire and is willing to put in the time and effort can master pool, or anything else for that matter, to the professional level?


There was a guy years ago named Dan McLaughlin. He wanted to put to the test the 10,000 hour theory. That anybody who devoted 10,000 hours of intense, dedicated, purposeful practice to something could achieve mastery of that thing. He decided to apply it to Golf. He documented his journey along the way and called it The Dan Plan.

He quit his job and spent the next six or seven years doing nothing but trying to learn to play golf with the goal of gaining his card on the PGA tour.

The short story is that he never came close. If I remember correctly he got down to about a 2 or 3 handicap. A decent player to be sure, but not even all that good by amateur standards. I know some injuries impacted his ability to continue, but even so, those who know golf and followed him and his progress understand that he simply didn’t have the tools to play at that level no matter how hard he tried and worked.

Again, I’m certainly not saying that there aren’t people who aren’t capable of extraordinary improvement and might even be able to get to the professional level. But there are far more that simply cannot.

The problem with studies and theories like this is that you can't just purely base them on physicality and eliminate the variable of the person's personality. We hear people all the time refer to certain athletes as 'naturals.' How much of that naturalness is personality-related? We've seen some really promising golf pros who start out looking like they're going to be the next Tiger Woods -- their form is perfect, swing time is perfect, they're winning events --- then they start losing event after event after event and can't seem to get back to where things were going great.

Players like Jordan Speith, come to mind to me. He was right there knocking on the door of greatness. He had the skills. But it all got into his head. Dustin Johnson is another who faltered mentally. Rory McIlroy is another. Tiger was mentally tough and overcame his skill deficiencies.

So then if you can't eliminate the personality variable, how much of it is adjustable?

 

[David in FL]

The problem with studies and theories like this is that you can't just purely base them on physicality and eliminate the variable of the person's personality. We hear people all the time refer to certain athletes as 'naturals.' How much of that naturalness is personality-related? We've seen some really promising golf pros who start out looking like they're going to be the next Tiger Woods -- their form is perfect, swing time is perfect, they're winning events --- then they start losing event after event after event and can't seem to get back to where things were going great.

Players like Jordan Speith, come to mind to me. He was right there knocking on the door of greatness. He had the skills. But it all got into his head. Dustin Johnson is another who faltered mentally. Rory McIlroy is another. Tiger was mentally tough and overcame his skill deficiencies.

So then if you can't eliminate the personality variable, how much of it is adjustable?

Good points and it makes for an interesting discussion.

The important difference in what we’re talking about though is that these are absolutely elite golfers at the very pinnacle of their profession. The top handful in the entire world. The very, very, very few that have everything necessary to compete at that level. The physical, mental, and emotional.

Not some 5 hcp schlub who thinks that if only he could spend the next two years “working on his game“ he too could suddenly compete at that level. Possible? Sure. In the same way that winning the lottery is “possible“. After all, somebody is going to win eventually. But, be that as it may, it ain’t gonna be you or me!

 

[BC21]

If that were the case, how do you explain the thousands and thousands of people who devote a lifetime towards their sport.

The golfers, baseball players, basketball players, football players, and tennis players whose sole purpose and only goal in life is to turn their passion into a professional career, but fall far short short?

The +3 handicap golfers who beat themselves to death playing on mini tours in the hopes of one day making it to PGA Tour, never to even come close to qualifying. The baseball players who never make it to the show even though they played for top division one teams and were drafted into professional farm teams.

The athletes whose only goal in life is to make it to the Olympics in their sport, but never get there.

What do you tell these thousands of people? That they just didn’t want it bad enough? That they didn’t try hard enough? That if only they had changed their attitude…?

I’m sorry, but no. Simply wanting it and a willingness to put in the time just isn’t always enough. Actually, it’s never enough. It’s certainly part of the equation, but not even close to the whole thing.

You tell them the truth, that there are thousands, if not millions, of talented people in the world, and on any given day you perform just as well or better than any of them. But when there are tryouts to make the cut, that's the day you have to outshine all of them. And with all those bright stars, there's a very fine line between success and failure, between the best and almost the best.

Research has shown that the primary factor contributing to success in business, sports, music, entertainment, etc... is a person's EQ (emotional intelligence). Simple put, you can master all the skills of a professional athlete or worldclass musician, but if you can't handle the pressure/stress of competition, or the inevitable highs and lows of performance quality (not to mention the status concerns of being in the public eye), your focus will suffer and you'll continue to struggle when it comes to outshining others at your skill level.

So, you could very well have all the physical and mental skills needed to reach the top, but not having good control of your emotions (endocrine system) will hold you back. And, unfortunately, that's a bit more difficult to work on.

Let's take a 600 fargo player that has been struggling to improve for a couple of years. Their goal is to reach 700 or higher. You say this player has reached the limits of their talent, and they just have to accept that they're as good as they'll ever be. I say what's holding them back is not a lack of skill or talent, but a weak EQ, or weak mental game, or a combination of both.

 

[BC21]

......
Not some 5 hcp schlub who thinks that if only he could spend the next two years “working on his game“ he too could suddenly compete at that level. Possible? Sure. In the same way that winning the lottery is “possible“. After all, somebody is going to win eventually. But, be that as it may, it ain’t gonna be you or me!

Do you not think that the greatest golfers in the world were once 5 hcp schlubs with dreams and desires of making it to the top? Of course they were.

Jack Nicklaus was asked once what made him the greatest golfer in the world. His answer was, "opportunity". He said he had the opportunity of starting golf lessons when he was 10. Then he said if the kid down the street had had that same opportunity, maybe he would've been the greatest golfer in the world. We know it takes more than opportunity, but his point is correct, and humbling.

 

[David in FL]

Do you not think that the greatest golfers in the world were once 5 hcp schlubs with dreams and desires of making it to the top? Of course they were.

Jack Nicklaus was asked once what made him the greatest golfer in the world. His answer was, "opportunity". He said he had the opportunity of starting golf lessons when he was 10. Then he said if the kid down the street had had that same opportunity, maybe he would've been the greatest golfer in the world. We know it takes more than opportunity, but his point is correct, and humbling.

Sure. Most at about age 6 these days.

And yes, Jack was being humble.

Millions of people to golf lessons every year. Many of them are extremely serious about it. There’s a young man who went to high school with my niece. He graduated two years ago. In his junior year of high school he finished eighth in the United States Junior amateur championship. His handicap at the time was +3. At 16 years old…

While he’s playing D-1 collegiate golf right now, he understands that he has almost no chance to progress to the PGA Tour because, in his own words, “He’s just not good enough.”

Plenty of opportunity. Plenty of Drive, desire, instruction, and support.

Just not good enough.

But there are plenty of golf instructors, hell instructors in all types of endeavors, that make a good living convincing people that with just a little bit more instruction, a little bit more practice, and a change of attitude, you too can be on TV on the weekend cashing great big checks.

 

[David in FL]

Let's take a 600 fargo player that has been struggling to improve for a couple of years. Their goal is to reach 700 or higher. You say this player has reached the limits of their talent, and they just have to accept that they're as good as they'll ever be. I say what's holding them back is not a lack of skill or talent, but a weak EQ, or weak mental game, or a combination of both.

I never said that at all.

I said that the reality of life is that people need to at least consider the possibility that that’s the case.

It’s a simple fact that there are Tens of thousands of extraordinarily talented people, working with their finest instructors, who devote untold years, hours, and money in the pursuit of their dream, and still fail.

To say that they do so simply because of a weak EQ or mental game just doesn’t recognize the level of talent that it takes to perform form at that level.

Of are certainly people who can improve dramatically. There are also those who have reached the limit to what they’re capable of doing. Sometimes that limit is very very good. Sometimes that limit is much more modest. But the limits exist in everyone.

 

[WobblyStroke]

I think what the 'anyone one can do anything if they put their mind to it' guys are glossing over is this: There are a limited number of spots at the pinnacle, and many many more people that match their will and desire. The ones who end up with the spots at the top will tend to be the ones that had advantages all along. Whether those advantages are top quality training, physical attributes, or just the right personality, these people have something that sets them apart from all the other people trying just as hard as them.
And the 10,000hr rule was for mastery of a sport. Given that par is defined as the score the hole should be completed in at an expert level, scratch golfers and even low cappers have mastered the game, let alone +3 mini tour players. There are levels to mastery. With top leagues and tours pulling players from all over the world, there will be a lot of masters of the game left out of the dance....pushed out by those who wanted it just as badly but were better equipped to succeed (aka more talented).

Everyone knows that hard work beats talent when talent refuses to work hard. BUT, when everyone works hard, the most talented end up on top.

 

[bbb]

my take is that posters are looking at this from alittle bit different perspectives
i think david in fl is saying people have a ceiling regarding how high up the mastery ladder they can go regardless of time spent
i think brian/tinman are saying anything is possible if you work hard and correctly
and i think the middle ground is accurate in the sense the hard worker can go higher than someone with more talent that doesnt apply themselves.
i also believe the top 1% are there because of more than hard work
and that not everyone can get there.
i had a karate sen sei who gave black belts to people who trained hard
developed the maximum of THEIR skill
even if they couldnt kick you in the eyebrow
so i think to sum up
it takes hard work and dedication to maximize your potential
will that put you in the top 1%.......?
you will never know unless you try.......
jmho
i am not an instructor

 

[MajorMiscue]

(i'm a B' player), how do you find out if your lack of progress or very slow progress is due to bad fundamentals or not practicing enough?or is it both in most cases?

Are you completely neglecting talent? Anyone could drop 3s like Steph Curry if they studied the fundamentals and shot enough baskets? Stevie Ray Vaughan just played more hours after learning the fundamentals?

 

[BC21]

Sure. Most at about age 6 these days.

And yes, Jack was being humble.

Millions of people to golf lessons every year. Many of them are extremely serious about it. There’s a young man who went to high school with my niece. He graduated two years ago. In his junior year of high school he finished eighth in the United States Junior amateur championship. His handicap at the time was +3. At 16 years old…

While he’s playing D-1 collegiate golf right now, he understands that he has almost no chance to progress to the PGA Tour because, in his own words, “He’s just not good enough.”

Plenty of opportunity. Plenty of Drive, desire, instruction, and support.

Just not good enough.

But there are plenty of golf instructors, hell instructors in all types of endeavors, that make a good living convincing people that with just a little bit more instruction, a little bit more practice, and a change of attitude, you too can be on TV on the weekend cashing great big checks.

You're right about the 6yr old bit!

And I do understand that a person can just not be good enough, even after countless hours of learning and training and practice and competition. The vast majority of the world's greatest athletes, musicians, artists, ect... started developing their talents as a young child, when the mind is more primed for learning and developing skills.

Most adults don't have the opportunity to start nurturing any specific talent as a child, unless their parents provide the opportunity. So, later on in life, if you have the desire to be talented at something, you will have missed the prime window for skill development (early childhood), and you'll have to overcome whatever learning obstacles (bad habits, frame of mind, emotional control, status concerns, preconceived notions...) that your mind has picked up over the years. The odds are slim that you'll be able to master that particular skill or talent without overcoming those mental obstacles.

Young children don't have those obstacles. Their minds are fresh, primed for learning skills and talents. Go to any youth football game, or baseball or hockey or whatever, and you'll see one or two kids that outshine all the others. People assume these kids were just born better better. But the truth is, they are the sons and daughters of coaches or parents who provide opportunity.

These kids aren't just playing and practicing during team practice - they are playing and practicing at home every single day. Meanwhile, the parents who bring their kids to practice once or twice a week tell themselves their kid just doesn't have what it takes. But the truth is, their kid isn't getting the same opportunity as the coach's kid, who works on his/her skills daily, outside of team practice.

With that said, older kids and adults can definitely develop talents if they can provide themselves the opportunity. But they'll have to work a lot harder at it. Plenty of people later on in life have proven that skills and talents can be learned and mastered at about any age, short of physical or mental roadblocks.

 

[BC21]

Are you completely neglecting talent? Anyone could drop 3s like Steph Curry if they studied the fundamentals and shot enough baskets? Stevie Ray Vaughan just played more hours after learning the fundamentals?

Yes. And no. Lol.

Yes on tossing a ball into a net. Anyone who spends enough quality time practicing will be able to do it as smooth and simple as running water.

Stevie Ray Vaughan started playing guitar when he was very young, same as Joe Bonnamassa and almost every other worldclass musician you can think of. The key word here, as it pertains to this thread, is "almost". In other words, there are plenty of worldclass musicians who learned and crafted their talent later on in life. If they had believed that everyone has a limit on what is possible, they would've remained ordinary.

 

[MajorMiscue]

Yes on tossing a ball into a net. Anyone who spends enough quality time practicing will be able to do it as smooth and simple as running water.

The GS Warriors don't agree. They just signed Curry to a lifetime contract that could net him $10 billion dollars.

 

[BC21]

For the op....

When it comes to improving to the point of being pro-level in anything (whether we're talking about golf or pool or corn hole or musicianship), there are average pros, below average pros and above average pros. But there are also thousands of unknown people around the world who either play better or have the potential to play better than any of the top performers we can name. History is full of these unknowns.

What I'm saying is that reaching pro level skills is not something we can judge based on popularity or cream of the crop status. I know plenty of 700 or higher fargo players that have wives and kids and real jobs outside of the pool and billiards world. At one point they were 600-rated players. And before that, 500-rated players. They kept plugging away, tweaking this, fixing that, trying this, perfecting that, and so on...

So yes, I believe getting better is always a real possibility, regardless of your current skill level. But the better you get, the slower and harder it becomes to reach that next step of improvement. And that's typically when we quit trying to learn and improve, and instead just keep repeating what we're already comfortable doing. That's not your limit. That just happens to be where you decided to quit climbing.

 

[FranCrimi]

Good points and it makes for an interesting discussion.

The important difference in what we’re talking about though is that these are absolutely elite golfers at the very pinnacle of their profession. The top handful in the entire world. The very, very, very few that have everything necessary to compete at that level. The physical, mental, and emotional.

Not some 5 hcp schlub who thinks that if only he could spend the next two years “working on his game“ he too could suddenly compete at that level. Possible? Sure. In the same way that winning the lottery is “possible“. After all, somebody is going to win eventually. But, be that as it may, it ain’t gonna be you or me!

Well those were just examples I gave off the top of my head but natural athletes occur at all levels of developmental stages. I've come across many in my teaching experience. Even if they're beginners or intermediate players, these natural players seem to fall naturally into balance and stance at the table. Their hand-eye coordination is in sync. But the other thing I noticed was their attitude. It was the same in all cases --- There was confidence and not taking mistakes as failures but rather as puzzles to be solved.

I've also see players who have natural ability but don't live up to their potential because of insecurity. Most people wouldn't consider them to be naturals. So are they or aren't they?

 

[BC21]

Well those were just examples I gave off the top of my head but natural athletes occur at all levels of developmental stages. I've come across many in my teaching experience. Even if they're beginners or intermediate players, these natural players seem to fall naturally into balance and stance at the table. Their hand-eye coordination is in sync. But the other thing I noticed was their attitude. It was the same in all cases --- There was confidence and not taking mistakes as failures but rather as puzzles to be solved.

I've also see players who have natural ability but don't live up to their potential because of insecurity. Most people wouldn't consider them to be naturals. So are they or aren't they?

Children who are fortunate enough to have early childhood experiences that involve hand-eye coordination skills, along with practicing patience and persistence and emotional control, grow into teenagers and adults that are more prone to quickly learn and develop talents that require those types of attributes. Others will say they have "natural" talent.

Kids that don't have many opportunities for that type of experience when they are young will likely grow up being awkward, less coordinated, slower to learn skills that require these things. People will say they don't have "natural" talent.

A child's mind can only soak up the things that it's exposed to, the environment provided to it by parents and family members. Then later on by childhood friends and teachers. By the time the child hits puberty, the windows of opportunity (when the mind is at its most prime and open states for skill development) are already over. Kids who had better exposure to opportunities and experiences when young will typically be quicker learners than kids who had few to zero opportunities/experiences.

 

[BC21]

Here's a prime example of childhood opportunity.... This kid plays pretty well. He is playing a Gibson Les Paul through a Marshall amp, 4x12 cabinet. He's 12. Who bought this equipment for him? I would bet my next paycheck that this kid started playing when he was around 5 to 8 years old, inspired by a parent or family member that's a musician, and they provided this kid with the opportunity to start playing guitar. When this kid is 35 and still jamming, others will say he was a natural. But the truth is, he was exposed to music at the most opportune time for his mind to soak it all up with ease.

 

[evergruven]

I know plenty of 700 or higher fargo players that have wives and kids and real jobs outside of the pool and billiards world. At one point they were 600-rated players. And before that, 500-rated players. They kept plugging away, tweaking this, fixing that, trying this, perfecting that, and so on...

hi brian, I'd be curious to learn more about your friends' progression
did *they* start out very young? how long did it take them to go from 500 to 600, on up?
besides keeping up with the game, does anything stand out to you as to why they were able to elevate their pool?

 

[BC21]

hi brian, I'd be curious to learn more about your friends' progression
did *they* start out very young? how long did it take them to go from 500 to 600, on up?
besides keeping up with the game, does anything stand out to you as to why they were able to elevate their pool?

One player in particular, who played in the high 500's to low 600's for the longest time, is now a 715. He said about 4 or 5 years he decided to focus on getting as good as he could get. Not sure when he first started playing pool, but he was in his late 30's and married with kids when he really decided to start working on his game. He told me that about 5 years ago he changed the way he was doing things. He changed his aiming to fractional aiming. He changed his approach to each shot, using more visualization and developing a consistent psr. He changed his attitude and behavior toward losing, learning from mistakes rather than blowing up over them. Anyhow, his current fargo score is 715.

So, was it his aiming? Was it his psr? Was it more attention and focus on what was happening with each shot?

I believe it was all of this. As he started seeing results, he developed a growth-mindset. He wanted to keep improving and he found ways to improve each element of his game.

Most of all, he dedicated larger chunks of time to playing pool. Instead of lying around on the couch watching football every Saturday or Sunday, he was hitting pool balls. He made time to work on his game, in between family and work and everything else that life tends to stack up on us.

There is no great secret to quick improvement. If what you're doing now isn't helping you get better, then you have to start doing things differently. Change how you look at the shots. No more guessing or hoping or taking shots for granted. Be 100% deliberate and committed to playing every shot exactly how you visualize it. It doesn’t matter if you mess up, as long as you're paying attention to what you're doing. This allows the mind to learn and fix things along the way.

I have a friend who plays guitar. He's not a bad musician at all. And he asked me one day how he can get as good as I am on the guitar. I told him he'd have to change some of the things he's been doing for years. Most people aren't willing to do that, to sacrifice whatever talent they've created by overhauling certain elements of it for the purpose of reaching a higher degree of talent.

We get comfortable with how we do things, especially if we notice that we're better at it than most other people. Therefore, change is usually not an option, because change will initially knock us down a notch before any improvement kicks in, and we don't like that. So we become content. We want to get better, but we continue to funtion in the same manner we always have.

My friend plays the same songs over and over. And though he learns new songs quite often, he doesn't push himself to learn new techniques or different ways of doing things. So even though he knows a ton of songs, his playing skills are confined to his current abilities.