Largest Ivory "crush" in US history... what a waste, IMO.

jhanso18

jhanso18

Broken Lock
Silver Member
http://www.nbcnews.com/science/us-destroy-6-ton-stockpile-illegal-ivory-week-2D11577322

If they really want to detour smugglers, why not sell this on the open market at pennies on the dollar. Smugglers work on supply and demand just like any other business. If Ivory weren't commanding a premium, there wouldn't be as many smugglers.

Not to mention, isn't the US about a gazillion dollars upside down right now??? Why not just try to make some of that money back?

There are a lot of reasons NOT to crush this ivory, and I can go on for a while, but this just seems like a waste the whole way around. Now the animal TRULY died for nothing...


Que a 10 thread on how killing elephants is wrong.. I get that argument, but the animal is already dead. If they sold this wouldn't that bring the value down, thus diminish some of the demand? Seems like a waste since the animal is now already dead...
 
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jhanso18 said:
http://www.nbcnews.com/science/us-destroy-6-ton-stockpile-illegal-ivory-week-2D11577322
If they sold this wouldn't that bring the value down, thus diminish some of the demand?
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A decrease in the price increases the demand. And once my neighbor has ivory in his cue...well, I want it too, especially since it was so cheap.

Why not sell all the heroin the police confiscate to bring the price down? Because that will just increase the demand by creating new customers.
 
bdorman said:
A decrease in the price increases the demand. And once my neighbor has ivory in his cue...well, I want it too, especially since it was so cheap.

Why not sell all the heroin the police confiscate to bring the price down? Because that will just increase the demand by creating new customers.
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I disagree, were not talking an illegal narcotic. By your same principle of thought i would argue that legalization of marijuana seems to have gone great in in two states now. Further decriminalization should hold steady.

However I think the above is still apples to watermelons comparison. It just seems like a waste of a good product. Even if illegal aquired, why not sell it to craftsman or at auction? Make some money back for the FWS? Lord knows they could use the extra funds.

This just seems like a waste to me. It just loops in my mind as a waste of something that can be utilized for a positive still. Sell it and donate the proceeds to those in need. Do something other than just crush it.
 
jhanso18 said:
I disagree, were not talking an illegal narcotic. By your same principle of thought i would argue that legalization of marijuana seems to have gone great in in two states now. Further decriminalization should hold steady.

However I think the above is still apples to watermelons comparison. It just seems like a waste of a good product. Even if illegal aquired, why not sell it to craftsman or at auction? Make some money back for the FWS? Lord knows they could use the extra funds.

This just seems like a waste to me. It just loops in my mind as a waste of something that can be utilized for a positive still. Sell it and donate the proceeds to those in need. Do something other than just crush it.
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If you're going to do that, why not just let the poachers sell it? Are you just trying to cut them out of the deal?

It won't work. Governments will only catch 5% of the poachers. The other 95% will have more customers than ever. Of course, ivory isn't a narcotic. But desire/demand is desire/demand. If you sell it at any price at or below the black market price, you'll increase the demand.

Look at it this way: We dump a bunch of ivory on the market. Now cue makers can offer ivory on their cues. Suddenly thousands of pool players -- who wouldn't have thought about having a cue with ivory -- now want it. And then their friends want it...and their friends' friends want ivory. The demand doesn't go away just because the initial supply is gone. All you've done is create more demand for the poachers to supply.

But pool players aren't the big market; let's face it, we don't have as much money as other buyers. The big markets are figurine carvers, jewelry and knife makers. When two of my knife-collector friends have ivory-handled knives, I want one too.

Expecting me to accept the excuse that "Sorry, but that ivory is gone" is pretty naive. I'm going to want it, and someone is going to supply it.
 
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As nice as the idea is to sell it to have our government take in some money for a change its still wrong...It would be extremely hypocritical If we as a country sold it because then we would be the ones profiting from the poaching and smuggling of the Ivory that was illegally harvested and smuggled...even though we werent the ones who killed the elephants or smuggled the ivory we would be guilty of being the bully that took the ivory from the smugglers/poachers and profited from it...In my opinion thats wrong no matter how you slice it...It does suck to hear that all that ivory will be destroyed though... as someone said earlier it seems that the animals that the ivory came from will have truly died for nothing...There could be a lot of nice things made from all of that.

I do like some Ivory in my pool cues and I hope that I'm not part of the problem...meaning I never really gave it much thought until reading this but I hope all the Ivory in my cue was legally and ethically harvested/obtained by the cue maker.
 
jhanso18 said:
Que a 10 thread on how killing elephants is wrong.. I get that argument, but the animal is already dead. If they sold this wouldn't that bring the value down, thus diminish some of the demand? Seems like a waste since the animal is now already dead...
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I imagine if the countries that seize the ivory from the poachers would actually sell it rather then destroying it, it would bring the value down causing less of a demand for it in the long run. Plus the funds obtained from selling it could also help out their country as well if put to good use.

Destroying is just stupid IMO. Im not saying have the government go kill elephants... I think they should just make the best out of a shitty situation.
 
It is a good that is illegal to traffic in. Illegally trafficked goods get destroyed, we all know that. Heroin addicts are outraged when the DEA destroys 50 kilos of it, due to the waste. That's life.

Get your ivory from fossil ivory and you'll be alright.
 
ideologist said:
It is a good that is illegal to traffic in. Illegally trafficked goods get destroyed, we all know that. Heroin addicts are outraged when the DEA destroys 50 kilos of it, due to the waste. That's life.

Get your ivory from fossil ivory and you'll be alright.
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That's not my point. I think making the best of bad situations is the best we can do. Destroying it does NOTHING to deter poachers, and it certainly doesn't decrease price or demand.

My point is that GOOD things could come from selling it. Destroying it does NOTHING. Why not try to do a little good in this world? Just seems wasteful to me.
 
bdorman said:
If you're going to do that, why not just let the poachers sell it? Are you just trying to cut them out of the deal?

It won't work. Governments will only catch 5% of the poachers. The other 95% will have more customers than ever. Of course, ivory isn't a narcotic. But desire/demand is desire/demand. If you sell it at any price at or below the black market price, you'll increase the demand.

Look at it this way: We dump a bunch of ivory on the market. Now cue makers can offer ivory on their cues. Suddenly thousands of pool players -- who wouldn't have thought about having a cue with ivory -- now want it. And then their friends want it...and their friends' friends want ivory. The demand doesn't go away just because the initial supply is gone. All you've done is create more demand for the poachers to supply.

But pool players aren't the big market; let's face it, we don't have as much money as other buyers. The big markets are figurine carvers, jewelry and knife makers. When two of my knife-collector friends have ivory-handled knives, I want one too.

Expecting me to accept the excuse that "Sorry, but that ivory is gone" is pretty naive. I'm going to want it, and someone is going to supply it.
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Increasing supply doesn't increase demand. It lowers the equilibrium market price because there are more people willing to buy ivory at a lower price than is currently available. If supply dries up, the market price will go back up and those people will no longer be interested in buying ivory. Econ 101.

For a luxury good like ivory, a decrease in price might even decrease demand because things that everybody has, but doesn't need go out of fashion really quick.

The most obvious solution would be to use the money raised by siezed ivory sales to pay better salaries and provide better weapons and vehicles to game wardens.
 
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Masayoshi said:
Increasing supply doesn't increase demand. It lowers the equilibrium market price because there are more people willing to buy ivory at a lower price than is currently available. If supply dries up, the market price will go back up and those people will no longer be interested in buying ivory. Econ 101.

For a luxury good like ivory, a decrease in price might even decrease demand because things that everybody has, but doesn't need go out of fashion really quick.

The most obvious solution would be to use the money raised by siezed ivory sales to pay better salaries and provide better weapons and vehicles to game wardens.
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This was my thought, but I'm FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAR from an econ major, enthusiast, or even interested viewer.

I still just see a waste of something that could generate funds for something good. We waste WAY too much in this world.
 
I can't find the article right now but I do remember reading that China once sold seized ivory in an attempt to lower demand.
What ended up happening was the people who sold illegal ivory purchased all of it, they then used documents proving they had legally purchased Ivory to mask what illegal ivory they sell. Although the ivory was sold cheap by the Chinese government way below what the market was demanding, it was never resold at lesser prices.
 
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jhanso18 said:
That's not my point. I think making the best of bad situations is the best we can do. Destroying it does NOTHING to deter poachers, and it certainly doesn't decrease price or demand.

My point is that GOOD things could come from selling it. Destroying it does NOTHING. Why not try to do a little good in this world? Just seems wasteful to me.
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It does deter poachers, in theory. Knowing that there is a risk of losing your assets and going to jail is more of a deterrent than just paying a fine and letting the government sell it. Your customers can still get their product one way or another, and not hunt you down and demand satisfaction somehow.

No government can seize it and then say "Thanks for shipping this illegally, we'll take it from here"
 
Ivory Article

http://news.yahoo.com/tide-turns-one-front-africas-war-against-rhino-004003983.html

Alot of Ivory that is smuggled end up in Asia used for "traditional medicine", these medicine's actually have no medical benefit what so ever. If we educated a younger generation that ivory comes from dead elephants and rhinos maybe we will have a world in years to come that actual care about the planet we live in.

In Central America and South America it was believed that turtle eggs were an aphrodesiac and the harvesting of turtle eggs was destroying a population of turtles, so conservationist got together and started putting up signs that said "TRY VIAGRA" "makes you stay hard" with a sign crossing out turtle eggs. Literally with in lets say 3 years the population had all ready been restored.
 
It all starts with the individual. There is no ivory in my cues, and I won't buy a cue that has ivory. Just my personal choice. I know others on this planet will buy ivory...but I can only make my personal choice.
 
My fake ivory looks just like your real ivory. I wouldn't know you had real ivory if you weren't trying to brag. Who cares if you have real ivory in your cue??? No one. Save the animals.
 
personally, i'm not a big ivory nut. Really, I like elk antler way better. That being said, it's not the fact they destroy it, so much as the opportunity wasted.

I just hate seeing such waste. The animal doesn't spring back to life with the ivory is crushed.
 
Bob Dixon said:
If an illegal dealer in Asia sees his expensive shipment seized netting him nothing except possibly a fine which causes an even greater loss (it should be a prison term) it discourages him and other dealers from investing in the illegal ivory trade. Money is the lubricant. It isn't rocket science.

For the authorities to then turn around and make it available for dealers to invest in on the open market makes absolutely zero sense. There isn't enough ivory in the world to lower the price substantially. Even at a much lower price there would still be a profit incentive for the illegal trade. The legal trade also provides a convenient cover for the illegal trade and encourages end user consumption.

The entire profit incentive is removed by enforcement. Ivory of all kinds should be completely banned if it can't be proven to have already been fashioned for it's end use at a prior date.
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That's what happens to cars. Cars get seized by authorities and then auctioned later.

If the governments turn around and sell the ivory cheaper then what the poachers would, buyers would more then likely pursue the legal routes of buying it via the governments.

When a shit ton of ivory is recovered from illegal poaching, it can then be legalized, sold way cheaper and the price of it would come down some overall, especially since there isnt much of the legal stuff out there now. If new legal ivory were introduced to the import export market, it's value would go down significantly as well as the poaching. Once the poaching drops to do less demand from the buyers getting it from the poachers then the less elephants will be killed.

Until it all starts all over again, but at least this way it buys some time and helps out countries that could put the money to good use.
 
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