Last two balls frozen on rail - What would you do?

jeffj2h

jeffj2h

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Had this situation a few nights ago. 8-ball, I'm on the 8. The 8 and 11 are frozen on the rail almost touching. My opponent has just handed me the ball, giving me ball in hand. My goal was to create separation between the 11 and 8 and leave a tough shot. I placed the CB where indicated, and attempted to feather off the right side of the 8 with right english, going three rails back to the middle of the end rail. What actually happened was I hit the 8 too thick and the 11 went straight into the near corner pocket. The 8 came off the end rail a few inches and the CB went to the middle of the table. My opponent banked the 8 in.

Even if my shot had worked my opponent could still have played safe back. I was trying to do something other then just tap the 8 and have them hand the CB back to me again. We were not playing 3-foul rules.

What would you do?

 
Making sure you get a rail, use a little angle with the cue ball almost directly behind the 8 ball with ball in hand.

Play the shot(like a combo) so that u freeze your opponent on the 8 ball and move the 11 just enough so u can get in there with the next shot.
 
I would place the cue ball here and skim the 8 ball razor thin.




With a ending position target here after the cue ball hits the end rail after skimming the 8. Get separation between the balls so he has to shoot at it.



The exact same shot with a firmer stroke will end up something like this after the cue ball goes three rails. Call the eight in that side in case it goes too far that direction.

 
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JC, your idea would work but would leave a plausible kick. I think Fore Rail's idea is idiot proof, which is what I feel like now that I see it :)

Ohh well, I'm glad I posted this and learned something.
 
Fore Rail said:
Making sure you get a rail, use a little angle with the cue ball almost directly behind the 8 ball with ball in hand.

Play the shot(like a combo) so that u freeze your opponent on the 8 ball and move the 11 just enough so u can get in there with the next shot.
Click to expand...

Agree. Want to be sure not to leave the other guy an easy kick to play a return safety.
 
Put cueball here:



Separate the 8 and 11, freezing cueball on the 8. Hit hard enough to get good separation, but not so hard that you leave an easy kick at the 11. I'd also try to leave a little angle so your opponent will not just push the 8 back up against the 11.



Easiest play, and a big favorite.
 
mohrt's shot,or a slight variation is the correct shot in my opinion.
 
jeffj2h said:
I was trying to do something other then just tap the 8 and have them hand the CB back to me again.
Click to expand...

This is why it is important to separate the 8 and 11. Get as much separation as possible without leaving your opponent's ball in front of a pocket.
 
Yup, +1 for this. I've played this very shot in the past.

mohrt made the point and I'd like to stress it again, make sure to leave a little angle!! If you just tab the 8 straight into the 11 and send it a few inches away, your opponent will just intentionally hit the 8 and send it right next to the 11 again. You will quickly realize that if this keeps up, their 11 will creep closer to the pocket while your situation won't improve.


mohrt said:
Put cueball here:



Separate the 8 and 11, freezing cueball on the 8. Hit hard enough to get good separation, but not so hard that you leave an easy kick at the 11. I'd also try to leave a little angle so your opponent will not just push the 8 back up against the 11.



Easiest play, and a big favorite.
Click to expand...
 
mohrt said:
This is why it is important to separate the 8 and 11. Get as much separation as possible without leaving your opponent's ball in front of a pocket.
Click to expand...

Right you are.

This shot becomes much more difficult if the balls are close to a pocket, particularly on a long rail.
 
The way I read your post is that your opponent handed you the cue ball. It reads to me that he didn't didn't bother to shoot but instead just handed the cue ball to you. That's a penalty allright but not ball in hand.
 
bflgvs said:
The way I read your post is that your opponent handed you the cue ball. It reads to me that he didn't didn't bother to shoot but instead just handed the cue ball to you. That's a penalty allright but not ball in hand.
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According to most rules cannot just hand ball to opponent, but many people play that way rather than just shooting an interntional foul.
 
GADawg said:
According to most rules cannot just hand ball to opponent, but many people play that way rather than just shooting an interntional foul.
Click to expand...

Then what's to prevent you from handing it right back? Or just shoot the cue ball straight in a pocket or lag it a few feet.:confused:
 
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Thanks for the replies. Very good advice here.

Regarding the handing over of the CB. Yes, my opponent picked the CB off the table and handed it to me. That's not unusual where I play. It just gives me BIH. Of course my opponent could have just taped the CB up table and awarded me BIH, but what's the point in that?

I could have just handed the CB back. At that point we would have discussed declaring a stalemate and reracking. But I believed I could win the game so I did not do that.
 
BTW, I'm fine with someone picking the CB off the table and giving BIH to the other player. But I do see how major controversy could occur if a player goes into DEFCON 1 mode, believes late in the game anything they do will result in a loss, and they literally pick up all remaining balls and place them in an un-runnable configuration.

We play APA 8ball rules. I don't know if APA explicitly covers this scenario but my general understanding is raking the balls or intentionally moving balls is considered unsportsmanslike conduct and therefore a forfeiture of game. I've never seen it happen, but if it ever does in my bar I can just see the gloves coming off...

PS. In chess when a player feels disadvantaged because they have to move (and therefore wishes it was legal to pass) it's called Zugzwang. Comes up enough in the end game that there is actually a German word for it.
 
jeffj2h said:
I could have just handed the CB back. At that point we would have discussed declaring a stalemate and reracking. But I believed I could win the game so I did not do that.
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Is three consecutive fouls loss of game? If so it would not be a stalemate (I would definitely not give my opponent BIH right back in this situation though).
 
PoolBum said:
Is three consecutive fouls loss of game? If so it would not be a stalemate (I would definitely not give my opponent BIH right back in this situation though).
Click to expand...

In BCAPL and WPA 8 ball rules, there is no three foul rule. I don't now of any place that plays 3 fouls in 8 ball.
 
Fore Rail said:
Making sure you get a rail, use a little angle with the cue ball almost directly behind the 8 ball with ball in hand.

Play the shot(like a combo) so that u freeze your opponent on the 8 ball and move the 11 just enough so u can get in there with the next shot.
Click to expand...

100% winner shot.
 
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