Last two balls frozen on rail - What would you do?

an ideal position to play the shot with more precision.

JC said:
Sorry if your feelings got hurt. I got frustrated that you were not listening to what was said, but rather making excuses. I'm not a pro either, just a low A player but I have been taught some stuff like this by pros. You say you learned a lot from the shot but you didn't learn the right stuff. Like how to execute it reliably It is not the thickness of the hit that makes it succeed, it's the speed. Do you recall that I talked about shortening your bridge and your stroke? The video was an example of that type of stroke, not the shot. And I clearly stated that. Re read what CJ posted. Short final back stroke and short front stroke yet not a jab. Still a stroke. Choke up on the cue a bit and extend your bridge hand some and you can stroke forward smoothly yet firmly and come to your normal finish position with your stroke and keep it delicate. Mohrt could actually work on this too. That's why he hit the shot too hard. His stroke was delicate but too long. Stroking like this you can actually confidently hook the 11 from a fairly wide range of angles all the way out to probably a half ball hit. Hope this helps.

JC
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The key to making a shorter bridge is to choke up a few inches on the butt and stand closer to the cue ball. This will naturally make your bridge more compact and more accurate on touch/close shots in many cases.

You still stroke the ball as usual, and the combination of the more compact bridge, and reducing the cue's length (by choking up and standing closer) will put you in an ideal position to play the shot with more precision.

Someone else mentioned that hitting the 8 Ball in the face with low english will "double kiss" the cue ball back to the end rail. This is a great shot and one that is worth practicing a time or two to understand how you see and utilize a potential "double kiss" shot in the future.

Play Well, the Givers are the Winners
 
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JC said:
Did you try this though?



I'm out of town and away from my beloved table or I would demonstrate.

JC
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No, I'll try that tomorrow. But, just so we're talking about the same thing, what final ball placement of all three balls am I going for? Like what Mohrt showed in his video, or something else?
 
CJ Wiley said:
The key to making a shorter bridge is to choke up a few inches on the butt and stand closer to the cue ball. This will naturally make your bridge more compact and more accurate on touch/close shots in many cases.

You still stroke the ball as usual, and the combination of the more compact bridge, and reducing the cue's length (by choking up and standing closer) will put you in an ideal position to play the shot with more precision.

Someone else mentioned that hitting the 8 Ball in the face with low english will "double kiss" the cue ball back to the end rail. This is a great shot and one that is worth practicing a time or two to understand how you see and utilize a potential "double kiss" shot in the future.

Play Well, the Givers are the Winners
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This is great information, thanks CJ! I recall being told the exact same thing about a decade ago, except I was told to hold the cue near its balance point. I'll have to try the shot with a jump cue, that one is new to me but it does make sense. Lighter cue, hard tip.
 
iusedtoberich said:
No, I'll try that tomorrow. But, just so we're talking about the same thing, what final ball placement of all three balls am I going for? Like what Mohrt showed in his video, or something else?
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yes Mohrt's shot is the goal. Dabarbr made a very good point though about that shot. If you can't leave the cue ball frozen to the 8 ball or even better with the 8 overlapping the cue ball, your opponent will likely come out good with any kind of contact with the 11 on a one rail table length kick. Turning the tables and making himself the favorite to win the game. So your goal needs to be to block that kick shot with the 8. If you aren't fairly confident of doing this, other up table options could be better depending on who your opponent is.

JC

CJ, thanks for the information. I will choke up more and compact the stroke more as you say to try to achieve better precision.
 
I just tried the shots with shorter bridge/choke, and with a jump cue. Using a jump cue on any of these short touchy shots is substantially easier! With my normal playing cue the 11 wants to move away from the 8, sometimes fatally too far if not careful. With a jump cue it's a cinch, even if you want the 11 to only move an inch. Video will be up later...

[edit] I can control the 11 ball with my playing cue too, it's all about the shot speed. Shoot the shot with the speed you want the 11 to move away. With a jump cue it's much easier to control, you don't have near the mass behind the shot.
 
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mohrt said:
I just tried the shots with shorter bridge/choke, and with a jump cue. Using a jump cue on any of these short touchy shots is substantially easier! With my normal playing cue the 11 wants to move away from the 8, sometimes fatally too far if not careful. With a jump cue it's a cinch, even if you want the 11 to only move an inch. Video will be up later...
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Next thing we'll see is a full length Butt made out of balsa wood to match your jump cue shaft just for these "specialty" shots. Come to think of it, that's a damned good idea!

JC
 
mohrt said:
New video. Thanks to CJ and others that have participated!
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Very nice. Exactly the shot I described way back on page 3 when I was just a zit and before CJ agreed with me.:smile:

I was taught this shot by Paul Potier. I probably could have played pool the rest of my life without thinking of it on my own.

JC
 
JC said:
yes Mohrt's shot is the goal. Dabarbr made a very good point though about that shot. If you can't leave the cue ball frozen to the 8 ball or even better with the 8 overlapping the cue ball, your opponent will likely come out good with any kind of contact with the 11 on a one rail table length kick. Turning the tables and making himself the favorite to win the game. So your goal needs to be to block that kick shot with the 8. If you aren't fairly confident of doing this, other up table options could be better depending on who your opponent is.
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The return kick on the other ball was the reason I'd shy away from something like that. Unless you can keep the balls fairly close together, a good hit with decent speed will result in a pretty good return. Double-kissing the CB back down to the other side should bump the 8 a little off the rail and leave the opponent with a long safety to try on what should still be a frozen ball. I haven't tried in a while, but a little left in your double-kiss shot may even move the 8 over towards the corner pocket and send the CB down.

mohrt said:
New video. Thanks to CJ and others that have participated!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJKcjXksLnY
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Those results were pretty consistent. Any interest in trying the double-kiss shot? Hit it straight into the rail with draw, about hard enough to hit a ball from one rail of the table to the other. You could add a little left to the draw to see if it helps kick the 8 towards the corner, too.

I'd be half tempted to go for the bank, but letting the CB go could be a bit dangerous.
 
Banks said:
The return kick on the other ball was the reason I'd shy away from something like that. Unless you can keep the balls fairly close together, a good hit with decent speed will result in a pretty good return. Double-kissing the CB back down to the other side should bump the 8 a little off the rail and leave the opponent with a long safety to try on what should still be a frozen ball. I haven't tried in a while, but a little left in your double-kiss shot may even move the 8 over towards the corner pocket and send the CB down.
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That's why it's important not to drive the 11 very far away from the 8 or leave the cue ball frozen on the 8 so English is required to kick one rail.
I think a double kiss shot here could be very strong, but will leave the eleven open for all kinds of skullduggery.


Banks said:
I'd be half tempted to go for the bank, but letting the CB go could be a bit dangerous.
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You are always half tempted to go for the bank John, even when the cut is easy.:)

JC
 
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