Layered Tips, defective by design?

[The Renfro]

I'm not going to say this about all single piece tips. But most I've tried will not last as long as a layered tip. I get one year out of my layered tips. And they consistent throughout their lifetime. The singles were mushrooming, glazing (badly), and would only last 3 months. I could scuff the singles I was using and they would glaze before the next weeks play. Constant attention and maintainence was required. Haven't had any of the problems you mentioned with the layered tips I'm using now. Also the single layered ones I was using seemed hard on the outside, and soft on the inside.
With the layered, they seem consistent all the way through. And good ol Masters chalk holds on just fine.

Unless you are buying a hard layered tip you might get a year or more of play out of it but 10 months of that year it will not be the tip you purchased... Soft turns to medium and medium turns to hard.... I won't debate anything else tonight but that fact.... You buy a Ki-tech Soft and a year from now it will still test as a soft... Buy a medium and it will still be a medium....

Single layered/bonded vs layered... There is no way a layered tip outlasts a bonded tip if both go thru the same types of processes and QC...... Hards... MEH... Do what you want.... but the Ki-techs don't delaminate or glaze to the same level that is seen on the layered tips out there...

Your observation about soft in the middle and hard on the outside has a small amount of merit for single layered tips but it has more todo with the fibers than the actual construction... At least for us... Every tip we make is pressed at over 2000psi... Since the molds touch the outsides of the tip only the surface area will be tighter and feel harder than the center of the tip if you have it cut down to half height... Thing is as soon as you have chalked it and hit enough balls with it to lay the cut fibers down it will test right back where the tip was originally at full height....

Layered tips changed the game.... Mr. Moori realized that Japanese pigskin was more elastic than the hides in use and wanted to use the Japanese pigskin to make the best tip ever made.... What I see now makes me chuckle.. You have layered cow, water buffalo and who knows what.. Layering those skins instead of pigskin makes no real sense... Layered they will never measure up to what Moori did... They just want to jump on the layered bandwagon.....

The original medium Moori was the holy grail of tips and Moori lost it when the went into high production.... What If I told you our medium hard Ki-Techs test the exact same as those tips and they are solid.... How many even can remember what those original Medium Moori tips felt like?

Moori changed the game and I fully intend to change it back and charge less than what the premium layered tips have been garnering for at least a decade.......

I have the chemicals, leathers and testing equipment to match any layered tip out on the market..... You have a tip you LOVE?? Cut it off and send it to me... I can send you the exact same tip in a solid version over and over and over that will hold up for months.... We haven't started the custom tip design model yet but it can be done... It just may well be high price in the design mode but once the formula is done the tips would be the same price as normal Ki-Tech Grades.... 3 for 25 and they would be "your" tip.....

wow... off the soapbox...

Chris

 

[buckshotshoey]

Unless you are buying a hard layered tip you might get a year or more of play out of it but 10 months of that year it will not be the tip you purchased... Soft turns to medium and medium turns to hard.... I won't debate anything else tonight but that fact.... You buy a Ki-tech Soft and a year from now it will still test as a soft... Buy a medium and it will still be a medium....

Single layered/bonded vs layered... There is no way a layered tip outlasts a bonded tip if both go thru the same types of processes and QC...... Hards... MEH... Do what you want.... but the Ki-techs don't delaminate or glaze to the same level that is seen on the layered tips out there...

Your observation about soft in the middle and hard on the outside has a small amount of merit for single layered tips but it has more todo with the fibers than the actual construction... At least for us... Every tip we make is pressed at over 2000psi... Since the molds touch the outsides of the tip only the surface area will be tighter and feel harder than the center of the tip if you have it cut down to half height... Thing is as soon as you have chalked it and hit enough balls with it to lay the cut fibers down it will test right back where the tip was originally at full height....

Layered tips changed the game.... Mr. Moori realized that Japanese pigskin was more elastic than the hides in use and wanted to use the Japanese pigskin to make the best tip ever made.... What I see now makes me chuckle.. You have layered cow, water buffalo and who knows what.. Layering those skins instead of pigskin makes no real sense... Layered they will never measure up to what Moori did... They just want to jump on the layered bandwagon.....

The original medium Moori was the holy grail of tips and Moori lost it when the went into high production.... What If I told you our medium hard Ki-Techs test the exact same as those tips and they are solid.... How many even can remember what those original Medium Moori tips felt like?

Moori changed the game and I fully intend to change it back and charge less than what the premium layered tips have been garnering for at least a decade.......

I have the chemicals, leathers and testing equipment to match any layered tip out on the market..... You have a tip you LOVE?? Cut it off and send it to me... I can send you the exact same tip in a solid version over and over and over that will hold up for months.... We haven't started the custom tip design model yet but it can be done... It just may well be high price in the design mode but once the formula is done the tips would be the same price as normal Ki-Tech Grades.... 3 for 25 and they would be "your" tip.....

wow... off the soapbox...

Chris

Thanks for the info. You prob already know from my signature line that I use Tiger Onyx. Its really and improved Sniper. Its made from boar hide and really plays well. I will admit it takes a few hours of break in. I shape after install, play 2 or 4 hours, reshape, and do nothing to it after that. The only maintainence I do is occasionally burnish the side of the tip. The one I installed in March has yet to be scuffed. It really fits my game. And I do play a lot. A rough guess is 20 hours per week on average. A little more on my short work weeks. I would be willing to try one of your Ki-Techs in the future though. I absolutely agree with you on the price point! They are getting ridiculous!

 

[RRfireblade]

This is question has been pondered for 20-30 years now.



It's not an issue, and layered tips are still all the rage. (Not saying they are 'better'.)

 

[lfigueroa]

Unless you are buying a hard layered tip you might get a year or more of play out of it but 10 months of that year it will not be the tip you purchased... Soft turns to medium and medium turns to hard.... I won't debate anything else tonight but that fact.... You buy a Ki-tech Soft and a year from now it will still test as a soft... Buy a medium and it will still be a medium....

Single layered/bonded vs layered... There is no way a layered tip outlasts a bonded tip if both go thru the same types of processes and QC...... Hards... MEH... Do what you want.... but the Ki-techs don't delaminate or glaze to the same level that is seen on the layered tips out there...

Your observation about soft in the middle and hard on the outside has a small amount of merit for single layered tips but it has more todo with the fibers than the actual construction... At least for us... Every tip we make is pressed at over 2000psi... Since the molds touch the outsides of the tip only the surface area will be tighter and feel harder than the center of the tip if you have it cut down to half height... Thing is as soon as you have chalked it and hit enough balls with it to lay the cut fibers down it will test right back where the tip was originally at full height....

Layered tips changed the game.... Mr. Moori realized that Japanese pigskin was more elastic than the hides in use and wanted to use the Japanese pigskin to make the best tip ever made.... What I see now makes me chuckle.. You have layered cow, water buffalo and who knows what.. Layering those skins instead of pigskin makes no real sense... Layered they will never measure up to what Moori did... They just want to jump on the layered bandwagon.....

The original medium Moori was the holy grail of tips and Moori lost it when the went into high production.... What If I told you our medium hard Ki-Techs test the exact same as those tips and they are solid.... How many even can remember what those original Medium Moori tips felt like?

Moori changed the game and I fully intend to change it back and charge less than what the premium layered tips have been garnering for at least a decade.......

I have the chemicals, leathers and testing equipment to match any layered tip out on the market..... You have a tip you LOVE?? Cut it off and send it to me... I can send you the exact same tip in a solid version over and over and over that will hold up for months.... We haven't started the custom tip design model yet but it can be done... It just may well be high price in the design mode but once the formula is done the tips would be the same price as normal Ki-Tech Grades.... 3 for 25 and they would be "your" tip.....

wow... off the soapbox...

Chris

Chris, I believe durability is the absolute last thing anyone should consider when it comes to which tip to play with.

All I care about is how the tip feels, the feedback it gives me, the sound it makes, the spin it imparts, and the confidence I get from using it. If it changes over its lifespan, thats OK too. You can rough it a bit and most tips will be OK. And if I have to replace a great tip every few months -- that's AOK by me too, if its a great tip.

Lou Figueroa
that's just me

 

[ShootingArts]

Chris, how soon can you make these?

. . .

We haven't started the custom tip design model yet but it can be done... It just may well be high price in the design mode but once the formula is done the tips would be the same price as normal Ki-Tech Grades.... 3 for 25 and they would be "your" tip.....

wow... off the soapbox...

Chris

Chris,

I want a tip harder in the center getting gradually softer all the way to the outer edge. How soon can you make these?

I won't even ask for a chewy center, . . . . yet!

Hu

 

[JB Cases]

I don't know, but it's something I've pondered and thought I'd post a thread so others might consider whether or not there may be any validity to my thought.

First consider the bonding glue for the layers of these tips. Again, I say, I don't know, but I'd assume they are much harder and glossier than the leather itself.

The glue, I would think couldn't hold chalk as well as the leather itself either.

So now to the point, Once a layered tip is installed and the top is crowned to your desired nickel or dime shape, a cross section of the layers are exposed.

These cross sections are separated by the glue that holds the layers together. If your tip is a 12 mm tip, then a certain percentage of that contact surface is taken up by the rings of exposed glue, no?

So wouldn't that mean that whatever that percentage may amount to, would hold chalk poorly and maybe even promote possible miscues?

I don't know, but when I think of this relative to a single layered tip like a triangle for example, there are no rings of hard glue exposed. Maybe this increases the favorable surface area of the tip and single layered tips may be better :shrug:

Once upon a time I sold layered tips. They were branded as Instroke tips. Sourced from Taiwan. Many people thought at the time that they were as good as Mooris. Me, being me, decided to research tips in general and dissect them and test them for hardness on a Durometer and test them with a hammer and with different chalk and so on...

I found that when they were magnified using the macro function on my camera that the glue layers actually formed little ridges that would hold MORE chalk.

I had the same misgivings, that the glue layers would not hold chalk and thus would be a negative. I thought this because someone had brought it up on the forum I was on RSB at the time and I thought it seemed plausible given that glue can dry harder than the leather depending on the type of glue used. I didn't know exactly what type of glue was being used for layered tips and I still don't. I knew what we used in cases and I knew what I used to install tips.

But I was wrong and the layers didn't hurt the ability to hold chalk at all. Now, I got out of tips because I made another discovery that kind of put me off tips. During my hammer testing with a 6oz head and my actual hit testing using a cue I found that almost all tips would end up about the same hardness level after a period of use.

That was in 2001/2002.

I am guessing that tips have come farther since then.

I have tried many layered tips, some I loved and found zero problems, others I cut off within hours.

I am however convinced that the single layer tip such as what Renfro is putting out is the best performing tip I have personally ever used. I am a B player who rarely rises to A so my opinion of how a tip feels and performs should be judged by that.