League 8-ball break strategy?

[Billy_Bob]

Decisions... Decisions...

Last year when I played 8-ball league (my first year of league), I usually broke so as to leave quite a few balls clustered at the foot of the table. This was to prevent other players from running the table.

This year I am a much improved player (just had a break and run the other night), better at position, can run more balls in a row (4 to 6 when I'm playing well), etc.

So the question is: When I am breaking in league (8-ball) this year, should I break them all open so I could have an easy run, or should I break leaving many balls clustered?

I'm worried about not getting a ball in on the break and having everything wide open. Some players (just a few) will then proceed to run the table. Most players will run few balls, then miss a shot....

 

[chefjeff]

Decisions... Decisions...

Last year when I played 8-ball league (my first year of league), I usually broke so as to leave quite a few balls clustered at the foot of the table. This was to prevent other players from running the table.

This year I am a much improved player (just had a break and run the other night), better at position, can run more balls in a row (4 to 6 when I'm playing well), etc.

So the question is: When I am breaking in league (8-ball) this year, should I break them all open so I could have an easy run, or should I break leaving many balls clustered?

I'm worried about not getting a ball in on the break and having everything wide open. Some players (just a few) will then proceed to run the table. Most players will run few balls, then miss a shot....

Being a long-time 8-baller, I'd suggest leaving the cueball safely near the foot rail--it is not as stupid as some might think...

I hit the second ball in the rack everytime from the left side (I'm right-handed) with just a touch of draw/left (yes, left). This takes the cueball to the left rail and the left english kills it just enough so it tends to drift down table toward the foot rail. From there, I'm usually left with a backward cut into a near corner or I have to take an object ball up table...both of these shots are difficult for the average league player, but not so much for me. If I make a ball on the break, I usually have a starter ball; if I don't make a break ball, my opponents are left with what they usually perceive as a difficult shot.

I find if I break hard and full against a quality player, he'll be able to runout if I don't make a ball---this is loser 8-ball and not to my liking. I prefer to play a little "chess" in my 8-ball with my safety break and with some clusters left to deal with.

With some clusters left, safeties can be implemented with devastating results for your opponent...hee hee hee.

My opinion...I curious to hear what others do on the 8-ball break.

Jeff Livingston

 

[CaptainJR]

Decisions... Decisions...

Last year when I played 8-ball league (my first year of league), I usually broke so as to leave quite a few balls clustered at the foot of the table. This was to prevent other players from running the table.

This year I am a much improved player (just had a break and run the other night), better at position, can run more balls in a row (4 to 6 when I'm playing well), etc.

So the question is: When I am breaking in league (8-ball) this year, should I break them all open so I could have an easy run, or should I break leaving many balls clustered?

I'm worried about not getting a ball in on the break and having everything wide open. Some players (just a few) will then proceed to run the table. Most players will run few balls, then miss a shot....

I'm trying to make the switch to big table 9 ball, but my friends on my 8 ball league team don't want me to quit so I'm still playing. I'm one of those guys that you don't want to brake big without making a ball on the brake. I can run a open rack fairly regularly. (last season I came in 2nd in runs) Bar room 8 ball is my specialty.

HOWEVER! (just to give you something to think about)

When I know I'm playing a weaker player and I see him brake them hard and get them pretty wide open, I'm thinking I have a good chance of winning the game. Either running out or running to a spot that I can leave him safe.

When I know I'm playing a weaker player and I see him brake them soft and leave them cluttered I'm much more sure that I'm going to win that game. Completely different game. I'm not even going to try to run the table. Remember when using this kind of brake, what ever your doing to him, your doing to yourself also. The better player has the advantage in both situations. His advantage is even greater in difficult situations and thus greater when things are tied up.

So what do you do?

This all depends on if you know the caliber of your opponent. The thread has been about when your playing a better player so that is what I'll talk about. Remember I'm trying to talk averages here. In any single game of 8 ball, anything can happen. (Oh! by the way. I'm assuming BCA rules, Ball in hand, etc.) I would never consider playing APA rules.

Playing a better player. - You know percentage wise, your likely to lose this game. Brake medium to leave a few ball tied up and tempt him to try the run and hope he goofs up. If he goofs up and runs down to one or two balls you've got him. You don't have to be able to run 8 balls to do it either. As a matter of fact, if your not sure you can run out, don't try. Find a place on the table that he can't hit his balls (your balls are all over, this shouldn't be hard to find) and put him there. You may make a couple of your balls along the way (ones that aren't hurting him anyway) if you want. If some of yours are tied up, look for a way to brake yours and still hide him. Your balls are your army, keep them up there in his way until your ready.

Sorry I wrote so much but I couldn't just say 'brake medium' without explaining why.

 

[catscradle]

... (Oh! by the way. I'm assuming BCA rules, Ball in hand, etc.) I would never consider playing APA rules...

Why not? There are really only 2 real differences I see between them.
1. Other than for the 8-ball, slop counts in APA. This IMO is very rarely a factor.
2. If you pocket scratch the cueball while attempting the 8 it is loss of game in the APA, which I believe until recently was the BCA rule too.

 

[CaptainJR]

Why not? There are really only 2 real differences I see between them.
1. Other than for the 8-ball, slop counts in APA. This IMO is very rarely a factor.
2. If you pocket scratch the cueball while attempting the 8 it is loss of game in the APA, which I believe until recently was the BCA rule too.

I never did care for 8 on the brake wins. One big issue to me is I don't think they play Ball In Hand?? Am I wrong about that? Your right about scratch while attempting the 8 losing, that probably wouldn't bother me at all. You do that and your probably going to lose anyway.

I shouldn't have mentioned APA. Should have know something about it would come up in a reply and I didn't intend to turn this into that. In short, APA if fine for new player or people that just want to have fun. It isn't something that a large majority of serious pool players will participate in mainly because of there handicapping system (giving the weaker player the advantage).

 

[Walt in VA]

I never did care for 8 on the brake wins. One big issue to me is I don't think they play Ball In Hand?? Am I wrong about that?
QUOTE]
Yes, APA plays ball in hand on fouls. Also, play "take what you make" after the break, instead of open table as in BCA.

Walt in VA

 

[Perk]

Depending on the type of table you play on, if its a small table 8ball league, you might learn the 2nd ball break.

1. Increases opportunity for 8ball on break
2. When you get consistent at it, almost always make a ball on break.
3. Tends to have balls cluster on one side of the table, and if you are making a ball on break, you can take choice depending on clusters, hence advantage you.
4. Less likely to scratch with the CB

These are my opinions, and I have success with them. Also have the video with Corey Duel vs Neils Fiejien playing 8ball, and Corey was breaking from side the same way. I noticed he had simliar results. With this break, you dont need alot of power. I dont know my break speed, but Corey was hitting them around 17mph. Neils went for the frontal break using power, and didnt have success.....FWIW

 

[Billy_Bob]

Yes, BCA 8-ball league, BCA rules, ball-in-hand, 8 on break not win - spotted. And playing on bar box.

Last year I broke from the side and hit the 2nd ball.

Actually I did better with my wins last year when playing the better players. They would run in most of their balls and get them out of my way so I could run the table. The beginning players would drive me nuts and would sometimes beat me because I couldn't shoot around their balls. (They would get one in, then leave me without a shot, get another in, then leave me without a shot, all the way to the 8-ball.)

One guy I played... I broke from the side and hit the second ball. The cue ball was frozen to the far rail, most of the balls were clustered, no balls on the break, and no shot for my opponent. My opponent said "What a cruddy break!" I just giggled because I was thinking "What a perfect break!"

 

[TheBook]

The best way is to watch how the other players are breaking and the results. Every table reacts different. If you watch any games on TV you will hear the announcers that are knowledgable talk about the break and ask why the losing player does not adjust to the table and break the way that the opponent is. It is a crap shoot. If you cannot break and run if you do make a ball than you should not spread the balls and leave them open. If you can than go for it. Watch the opposing players during the warm up. Watch who is good and who is bad. Depending on who you play should determine how you break.

Good luck

 

[kyle]

I have always prefered to soft break the second ball I think I make balls more consistantly especially on smaller tables or bar boxes. Generally leaves a tougher table balls seem to bunch up on the rail I break from.

 

[chefjeff]

The best way is to watch how the other players are breaking and the results. Every table reacts different. If you watch any games on TV you will hear the announcers that are knowledgable talk about the break and ask why the losing player does not adjust to the table and break the way that the opponent is. It is a crap shoot. If you cannot break and run if you do make a ball than you should not spread the balls and leave them open. If you can than go for it. Watch the opposing players during the warm up. Watch who is good and who is bad. Depending on who you play should determine how you break.

Good luck

I have to respectively disagree on coming up with a conclusion about a table's breaking odds with so few trials. There are so many variables on a break shot that watching a table/player for such a small number of breaks doesn't tell one much. (Exceptions: table speed, rail efficiency, and other items that can be identified rather quickly and reliably.)

Now, if you watched a player/table for, say, 5,000 breaks, then you've got some objective data to integrate. But 5 to 25?---there's little chance that that information will help much. I always chuckle when I hear those announcers and pros make those comments.

I base my opinions on my former blackjack career. Any deviations from the norm can happen in the short-term; luck is irrelevant in the long-term.

Jeff Livingston

 

[UWPoolGod1]

I go rack to rack on how I break and who I am playing against. Since the break is the most important shot you better make a ball against the better players. If I do a head hit I hit them fairly hard, but still control the cueball...no use scrating in the side or corner. But if the game is hill-hill I will usually go for a side break to leave some clusters and still usually make a ball. Then I also have confidence that I will win the breakout/safety battle that will ensue.
My ACS teammate that I will be playing with at Lincoln City, OR in a few weeks played as a BCA master last year at that tourney. Played Stan Tourangeau first round. Since it was alternating breaks it was to be a close match. Stan broke and ran each of his tables and my friend broke and ran all of his except his 2nd break where he didn't make a ball. Stan won that game and eventually the match 7-5 without shots being missed. Or at least thats how his story went.

 

[berry]

I play 8-ball for over 10 years and this is my view on the break.

there are 3 type of breaks that I use.

1. front up hard as I can and try to stop the Qball in the middle.
2. from the left or right break on the second ball with bottem spin to get the Oball back up the table.
3. soft break first diamond front up.

I alway's start with the 1. Try to get a ball on the break and run the table.
When my opponent runs more and break number 1 doesn't give me a ball on the break I go to 2. This way you have more change on breaking a ball but more problems will occure on the table and you have to play smarter, like chess.
When I still lose I go to break 3 so we can have a tough safety play and running out is not an option.

So far this alway's paid out for me!!

 

[catscradle]

... handicapping system (giving the weaker player the advantage).

I disagree (this isn't an APA issue, but a handicapping issue) to some extent. Leaving aside the issue of sandbagging which is a whole other can of worms, the better player should always win, games on the wire not withstanding. Occassionally a lucky roll or two will get you, but that's part of pool. Interestingly enough I just started in an un-handicapped league, the only stat they keep is wins and losses, best percentage on team A plays best percentage on team B, 2 vs 2, 3 vs 3, 4 vs 4, and 5 vs 5. It is nice to just play wide open. The problem is that if you're on a weak team (like me) and can play a little (like me) you bubble to the top and are always playing tough competition, which is good for your game, but a little tough on your confidence some times. I'm interested to see what effect it will have on my overall game.

 

[CaptainJR]

I disagree (this isn't an APA issue, but a handicapping issue) to some extent. Leaving aside the issue of sandbagging which is a whole other can of worms, the better player should always win, games on the wire not withstanding. Occassionally a lucky roll or two will get you, but that's part of pool. Interestingly enough I just started in an un-handicapped league, the only stat they keep is wins and losses, best percentage on team A plays best percentage on team B, 2 vs 2, 3 vs 3, 4 vs 4, and 5 vs 5. It is nice to just play wide open. The problem is that if you're on a weak team (like me) and can play a little (like me) you bubble to the top and are always playing tough competition, which is good for your game, but a little tough on your confidence some times. I'm interested to see what effect it will have on my overall game.

Sorry Billy Bob for getting your thread off subject. I'll start a new thread on APA and why I personally don't care for it.

Let's take that subject there and get this back on track to Billies question.

 

[snook789]

I was going to start a post on 8-ball breaks, till I searched and found this one.

I have a couple questions
I am trying to better my 8-Ball break on a bar box, for league play.
One of the books I have recommends as the best break for making balls, occasional 8 ball, and leaving Q-Ball near the center of the table, by hitting the 2nd ball in.
This break is supposed to bring the QBall to the side rail, and back towards the center.
They have the cue ball starting right at the line, about a ball over from the rail, using a touch of inside & bottom, and hitting the 2nd ball squarly.
I have tried this numerous times, and I can not hold the cue ball to stay on the side/center.
Diagram shows if the Q-Ball is going down table and behind the rack, that the 2nd ball wasn't hit squarely or not enough bottom (which is suppose to be just a touch per diagram) And that is where my Q-Ball is going
Anyone have a comment on this ?

One other question
I own a 9 ft table
If I am practicing Q-Ball placement for bar box tables on my table, will the brake be similar ?

Thanks in advance!

 

[chefjeff]

I was going to start a post on 8-ball breaks, till I searched and found this one.

I have a couple questions
I am trying to better my 8-Ball break on a bar box, for league play.
One of the books I have recommends as the best break for making balls, occasional 8 ball, and leaving Q-Ball near the center of the table, by hitting the 2nd ball in.
This break is supposed to bring the QBall to the side rail, and back towards the center.
They have the cue ball starting right at the line, about a ball over from the rail, using a touch of inside & bottom, and hitting the 2nd ball squarly.
I have tried this numerous times, and I can not hold the cue ball to stay on the side/center.
Diagram shows if the Q-Ball is going down table and behind the rack, that the 2nd ball wasn't hit squarely or not enough bottom (which is suppose to be just a touch per diagram) And that is where my Q-Ball is going
Anyone have a comment on this ?

One other question
I own a 9 ft table
If I am practicing Q-Ball placement for bar box tables on my table, will the brake be similar ?

Thanks in advance!

In reference to your 8-ball side break leaving the cueball near the foot rail:

1.) If you're breaking from the right side, use just a touch of RIGHT english, not left. This squirt and curve will make it a little harder to hit the second ball fully, but when the cueball hits the side rail, the side english will help it back toward the center of the table rather than down toward the foot rail. (Do the opposite if breaking from the left side.)

2.) Hit the cueball lower, for basically the same reason.

3.) But, so what if the cueball lands near the foot rail? I actually prefer this as it is, in some sense, a safety break. That is, you'll usually be left with a back cut into one of the foot corners or a cut for a long shot to one of the head rail corners. Practice these shots and when you get them, you'll make them; when your opponents get these difficult shots, they'll tend to miss. This gives you an advantage right off the bat.

4.) Being right handed, I break from the left side. This seems to make the rail bridge more comfortable for me. I think I saw Miz explain this on an old video tape and I have done the same since.

5.) Don't hit it so hard. I think "75% break speed" when I do the 8-ball side break. Your control should improve and you should get a more solid hit on the second ball.

6.) Keep your cuestick level!!!!!!!!!! I learned this after a second cueball jumped the table and hit the same guy in the same leg. He told me if I hit him again, I'd be eating the cueball. So I took a week off and mastered keeping the cuestick level and cueball on the table. (A jacked-up stick makes the cueball jump so it is more likely to hit the rack while it is in the air and ++BOING++ goes the cueball, right off the table.)

re 9-foot table:

If you're practicing these breaks on a 9 foot table but will be playing on a bar box, then you'd be better off setting up the cueball so it is the same as breaking on 7 foot table, relative to the rack. That is, move the cueball past the 9 footer's head string so it is the same angle and distance to the rack as a bar box. This means you'll be making a bridge on the table as opposed to the rail, but your cueball will be approaching the racked balls as it would on a 7 foot table.

Jeff Livingston

 

[snook789]

Jeff,

Thank so much for the excellent reply!

Richard - What is the one pocket type break you are referring to that Corey Deuel uses ? Your the 2nd poster that meantion this

I have the privilege of seeing Corey Deuel, and Troy Frank on a regular bases, as they come to the bar my team is sponsored out of. Played with both, and have had Troy over my house for alittle min tournment.
I need to pay more attention to their 8-Ball breaks next time

 

[chefjeff]

One more thought on 8-ball breaking...

If you're playing someone who skews the rack on purpose, then it might behoove you to place the cueball exactly on the head spot while he racks. This will prevent him from knowing how to skew the rack to make the second ball break harder. And if he does skew the rack, you can just break from the other side, where hitting the second ball is actually easier, because of the skew.

You can also pretend that you're going to break from the left side, for example, and then when he skews the rack, go to the right side and break.

When I get a racker who intentionally skews the rack, I pretend that I don't really notice it and that I'm just moving the break ball around for the hell of it, not in response to his racking tricks. This works pretty slick on these cheaters and turns the tables on them.

Jeff Livingston