League - Is there one that is worth the time?

A

azbluemach1

Member
So, I have played in two leagues recently.

The first one, the operator took in 12k for a session and paid back total < 2k. This was a one off league, not one of the big boys. When asked where the other 10k went the op said "well, this is not a money league, this is a beer drinking, pool shooting, hanging out league". Easy to say with 10k in your pocket. WHen the crowd actually CHEERED this statement, I knew I was in the wrong league.

We pulled 4 teams from that league and switched to TAP. Last session, my team took first. Over the session this operator took in 4900$ and paid 1st place team 485 to split, which doesn't even cover 1/2 of our dues for the 12 weeks. Im guessing he paid out around 1k total. When I asked this operator where the other 4k went, he said "this is not a money league....". Well you know the end of that.

There were some accounting irregularities here. WHen I look at other regional tap leagues, they are paying out 4-5x as much for a session 1st place. This particular OP also decided to break with TAP (I guess) and hold some sort of post session tournament, which allowed a team who sandbagged the last 4 weeks and had all of their ratings drop 2 full points to sweep in and make some $$.

Yes, this time I am *****ING about league payouts in my experiences. If you are ok with giving up 75-90% equity to a guy who prints some forms and delivers some envelopes, more power to you. I would like to play some poker with you, but whatever. I am not ok with giving up this much equity.

I can see something like 25% going back to the league HQ and the operator keeping like 20% or something.

When we contacted TAP national about these payouts, they said the payouts were not right and they would look into it. I hear there were a bunch of problems for the teams they did send to nationals in vegas last year, but that is hearsay and I wont get into it here...

My question(s):

1.) What national league has the best money back to the players?
2.) Do any of the other national leagues HOLD the local operators to a standard of payback to the players?

Im just not sure league is for me. I really enjoy hanging out with my team, but man - I have a gold crown and a beer fridge in my house!

The worst part of it is the DOUCHEBAG team we had to play in the final match. Their captain dug DEEP into the rulebook at every opportunity, and in classic douchebag fashion refused to admit he fouled on a shot even though no less than 3 independent observers said he fouled (we didn't call an official observer because we didn't think the hit was that close). The funny part is he reached way down into his scumbag of tricks, all in order to win like an extra 200$ for his team to split - 40$ each.

Not having to deal with A$$holes like this is a reason I stopped regularly gambling - I had no idea the depths league guys would sink to to win 40$.

SO, AZB, is there a league for me?

FLame-retardant suit on...
 
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thank you

What amazes me is what they think they are doing or getting away with to win.Had a experience with one team where the guy I was playing called someone from his team over and would stand and talk to him (Loud) to distract me while I was shooting .It was almost comical. The same team had a girl member keep walking past the table when I would be down on a shot.It really amazed me that a team would find it that important to win and go to those extremes.I'm sure leaning towards walking away from playing leauges all together. Personally I see more respect in tournaments .About a year into playing leauges a very good road player called me to the side and asked me why I would even play in leauges and that it would do much of nothing but cause my game to flounder . At the time I thought he was being a bit crude or opinionated .......he may have been right.:confused: I have a GC at home too , and a frig with food and water ......sorry no beer for me or the table will disapear .I think alot of times it would be better for me to use my leauge $$ to play in tournaments against tougher competition.
 
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I've played in leagues since I was 18(39 now). There has always been b!tching and complaining about payouts and will always be.

A few of my friends ran a few leagues themselves and said they were gonna change things about payouts. They took in only $4-500 for themselves over 20-30 weeks of league. The leagues had great payouts. Needless to say, neither of them are running leagues anymore. It just wasn't worth the time or headaches for the money.

So with that being said, if you like playing league AND want a good payout, do what 'DoubleD' said and start your own league.

I'm not condoning what the league operators are doing because it seems that the "math" is always screwy but MOST league operators would tell you their payout system at league meetings and then you can decide before starting whether or not it is the right league for you.

So, do what we do. Go to league and enjoy pool, drink a few(or drink enough to keep the establishment out of bankrupcy!!!), have a good time with some friends and hey, if you get ANY money back, look at it as a bonus! And remember, league IS NOT ABOUT PAYOUTS............
 
Why don't the players start a non-profit league run by themselves?

I'm sure I know the answer:
Pool players want someone else to do the work.

:D:D:D
 
I'm with the group.

Since all that's involved is printing some forms and delivering them to the players, it sounds to me that you have a golden opportunity to make some serious $$$. At least 10K by your estimation. Nothing to it, probably take you 30 minutes a week, right?

Start your own. Or play at home. Or gamble. Leagues probably aren't worth it for you.
 
Here's my .02 on the subject.

There is not a single league system that will absolutely satisfy you. You have to find a local league operator whose method for running the league and payout system will satisfy you.

How do I know this? I've met players from every sanctioning league system over the years and, in every case, there was a "love it" and "hate it" faction for each. What makes a good league is an operator who isn't afraid to stick to his/her guns while listening to the players desires for their league; after all, it is their league. They vote with their feet if they don't like it.

If you can't find one that does what you'd like, either pick the best of what you have or start your own. (I tend to be one of those "Lead, follow, or get the hell out of the way" kind of guys.) BTW, starting your own makes it difficult to enjoy playing in it. You'll need to compartmentalize things or be completely distracted when you're shooting.

Good luck!

Brian in VA
 
Bcapl

In my opinion, BCAPL is the best league. Most of them pay back between 60-75%.

Your first league ripped you off.

APA, as far as I know most DO NOT pay back.

My current league pays back 75% which I think is fair. It's a lot more than 30 minutes a week to run a league. You'll tire of the constant biotching and whining plus it is some amount of work.

The only time I've ever heard of a league that was 100% percent payback is if it's run by a pool hall that just wants to fill up the table and sell drinks and food.

Keep looking, their are good leagues out there, you just have to do your homework before you committ
 
Reply to Post

azbluemach1 said:
So, I have played in two leagues recently.

The first one, the operator took in 12k for a session and paid back total < 2k. This was a one off league, not one of the big boys. When asked where the other 10k went the op said "well, this is not a money league, this is a beer drinking, pool shooting, hanging out league". Easy to say with 10k in your pocket. WHen the crowd actually CHEERED this statement, I knew I was in the wrong league.

We pulled 4 teams from that league and switched to TAP. Last session, my team took first. Over the session this operator took in 4900$ and paid 1st place team 485 to split, which doesn't even cover 1/2 of our dues for the 12 weeks. Im guessing he paid out around 1k total. When I asked this operator where the other 4k went, he said "this is not a money league....". Well you know the end of that.

There were some accounting irregularities here. WHen I look at other regional tap leagues, they are paying out 4-5x as much for a session 1st place. This particular OP also decided to break with TAP (I guess) and hold some sort of post session tournament, which allowed a team who sandbagged the last 4 weeks and had all of their ratings drop 2 full points to sweep in and make some $$.

Yes, this time I am *****ING about league payouts in my experiences. If you are ok with giving up 75-90% equity to a guy who prints some forms and delivers some envelopes, more power to you. I would like to play some poker with you, but whatever. I am not ok with giving up this much equity.

I can see something like 25% going back to the league HQ and the operator keeping like 20% or something.

When we contacted TAP national about these payouts, they said the payouts were not right and they would look into it. I hear there were a bunch of problems for the teams they did send to nationals in vegas last year, but that is hearsay and I wont get into it here...

My question(s):

1.) What national league has the best money back to the players?
2.) Do any of the other national leagues HOLD the local operators to a standard of payback to the players?

Im just not sure league is for me. I really enjoy hanging out with my team, but man - I have a gold crown and a beer fridge in my house!

The worst part of it is the DOUCHEBAG team we had to play in the final match. Their captain dug DEEP into the rulebook at every opportunity, and in classic douchebag fashion refused to admit he fouled on a shot even though no less than 3 independent observers said he fouled (we didn't call an official observer because we didn't think the hit was that close). The funny part is he reached way down into his scumbag of tricks, all in order to win like an extra 200$ for his team to split - 40$ each.

Not having to deal with A$$holes like this is a reason I stopped regularly gambling - I had no idea the depths league guys would sink to to win 40$.

SO, AZB, is there a league for me?

FLame-retardant suit on...
Click to expand...

Azbluemach1,
I read your post and wondered if you had fun or not. If its preoccupying you to the point you have gone worrying over who is making the money then well you didnt I dont think.
I believe I would ask myself these questions. Do I like the people I am playing with enough to not worry over the prize fund? Is it the fun that is most important? Should I just quit this sissy mess and go over and give out some weight and gamble down to my last dime? or should I make pool a way to make some extra money by going into bars with bar tables and waiting for someone to ask me to play for some money and slip up on them?
My point is there are lots of questions we have to ask ourselves about pool. Pool is what you make it. Some of your league folks were happy doing the league thing regardless of the money they were happy being together drinking some brew every week. The guy who was printing the forms organizing the play was/is providing a service for which they were happy. Unfortunately someone has to pay in order for pool the sport to exist. What is most important is: Are you happy?
If not then you need a change of venue. I would advise not trying to mess it up for the other happy people. Ive seen that done way too much here lately by other folks just as concerned about the money as you thinking its supposed to be everyones concern and really its not.
Pool league play is geared up mostly for keeping people together and having a good time and not so much for getting better. If you want to be able to get better and still play league pool I advise the BCA leagues. Their formats are setup a little more towards that end.

If you want to get better and you want to be with people who want to get better the money issue tends to be more visible and irritating in my experience.

If you want to get better and need some help Ive got a really good book that teaches some natural aiming method that are not cte.

If you or anyone else is interested just pm me and I will give you a deal that is better than my advertised price. Id like to sell some of these and I think you will be really happy about the results you get if you read and consider the material.

336Robin :thumbup:

aimisthegameinpool@yahoo.com

Email me and I will send you the link to the book website so you can read about the book before deciding.
 
You're partially right

Matt90 said:
What amazes me is what they think they are doing or getting away with to win.Had a experience with one team where the guy I was playing called someone from his team over and would stand and talk to him (Loud) to distract me while I was shooting .It was almost comical. The same team had a girl member keep walking past the table when I would be down on a shot.It really amazed me that a team would find it that important to win and go to those extremes.I'm sure leaning towards walking away from playing leauges all together. Personally I see more respect in tournaments .About a year into playing leauges a very good road player called me to the side and asked me why I would even play in leauges and that it would do much of nothing but cause my game to flounder . At the time I thought he was being a bit crude or opinionated .......he may have been right.:confused: I have a GC at home too , and a frig with food and water ......sorry no beer for me or the table will disapear .I think alot of times it would be better for me to use my leauge $$ to play in tournaments against tougher competition.
Click to expand...

I agree with the part of your post about playing in tournaments will make you a better player. You're playing against better opponents, and you get to play a series of games instead of 1 game and wait, another game and wait.

However, if you're a beginner to intermediate player, I think leagues will help since you get to play a variety of players and you can learn something. If you have some good players that aren't selfish, they will help you if you ask for advice.

Lastly, I use league play as a challenge. It helps me at adapting to different types of tables, fast, slow, roll offs, tight pockets, loose pockets, dead rails.....and I can play in the bigger State and National Tournaments.
 
There will probably be a few naysayers pop up in this thread that will ask you, "What do you care where the money goes, or how much the LO gets paid ?"
While I agree that an LO should get reasonable financial compensation, some do tend to go a bit overboard with thier own paychecks. If we were in the same league, after crunching the numbers, I'd be pretty cheesed off, too.

Yes, I'm sure there are some shady LO's out there (APA, BCA, TAP, etc.). But if you have no knowledge of the LO or the league they run, then do the research beforehand. Any LO worth thier salt will be happy to define the parameters of thier league in great detail, and should be able to address any questions or concerns you may have without hiding anything.

And if you don't like the payout structure, handicap system, or whatever that league/LO is offering ? There's no gun to your head, the answer is real simple. Don't play in that league.
Play in a league or tournament that YOU want to play in. One that you feel you will get the best experience from.
If you can't find one, consider starting one. If they don't exist already in your area, I'm certain that the corporate offices of the APA and BCA will be more than willing to help you get things started, and help maintain your league, too. And you'll have the opportunity to add entry/trips to the 'nationals' to your league's selling points. Who wouldn't jump at a trip to Las Vegas ???:thumbup:

We all make informed choices every day. Why should the pool league you choose to join be exempt from not only common sense, but your own best interests ?

My only point is that those questions should be asked BEFORE you join ANY league. The answers will tell you which organizations have the players best interests at the forefront of it's agenda.
 
Do you work for free?
Do you believe in free enterprise?

Most of the leagues I have ever played in, are set up as a business. The owner of a league pays a franchise fee to get the rights to his territory. Either he, or a representative has to travel to each of the locations to pick up fees and scores each week. Figuring handicaps, entering scores, ranking teams, and collection, take far more than 30 minutes a week.
Nothing in life is free. You pay in many different ways. If you want a low cost league, you are stuck with an in house league, where the owner can make a profit, by bringing in customers. If you want a city wide or state wide league, you will pay for it in fees.
Your only alternative is to start your own league, and work your a$$ off for free, because you love the idea. People would still complain, just like you are.
 
I had the same problem with a league so I started my own league. I got tired of all of the manipulation to benefit the LO (my team still won the dough:D). Starting your own league is a little bit of work in the beginning, but if you put some time in and think about what you liked about each of the leagues you played on, what the other players liked and disliked you can come up with your own format and everyone can play have a good time and make some money. When I started my league I did what I had stated from above, included my team captains in decisions on handicaps based on a set criteria, there is a 100% payback from money obtained on league night play, my wife does the paperwork and she gets paid $100.00 per 12wk session and we like 8 ball and 9 ball so we alternate weeks. There is more but everyone who plays in my league loves it so far. My league plays Mondays, My wife and I play in another league aswell on WED and FRI and half of their players have also started plalying on Mondays because of the fairness and straight forwardness there is no hidden agenda, just want people to have fun:cool: hope this helps.
 
I play in a great BCA pool league it has 3-man teams you play 6 games each night playing each player twice giving each player an opportunity to break. Last session we had 34 teams played 19 weeks and we pay $8 per week and tables are open, and we play on 7 foot diamonds. If I remember right we took third and got back I believe just over $500. It is a handicaped league and is very fair with no preferencial treatment for anyone our LO runs the league and pays back 100% of our weekly fees plus throws a nice banquet at seasons end. It is by far the best league i've ever been associated with, and i've been playing leagues for 20 yrs.
 
Though I've never played in it (because there wasn't one around my area when I was interested in league play) I've heard good things about the BCA league. I'd avoid the APA like a plague! But if you're into league play for the money, I'd suggest getting a part time job. There is no formula that will fairly compensate the league operators for their time, expenses and aggravation and leave enough for a good payout for the teams. The money just isn't there.
 
About the most fun I've had in a pool league was a onepocket league that was started up locally.

The BCA and APA leagues that I've played in in the past are not a good value proposition from a financial perspective, IMO. And that "free" trip to the national competition in Vegas isn't so "free" after the numbers are examined. Again, this is just my opinion. It can and does offer the chance to meet players and be social, etc. If that is worth it to you, then fine.

I took a break from the leagues and then played again this session, with no intent on going to Vegas (though it looks like our team will get there this season). It's OK, but not a financial decision. I'll scale back my league activity next session.
 
I operate under the assumption I will not get any money back. I look at my

dues as a form of entertainment and any money received at the end of the

year is a bonus for the BCA tournament in Vegas. Our league is 28 weeks

long with 10 teams and first place pays around $1700 I'm told. Don't know

how much LO keeps and honestly don't really care. All that being said, my

LO is worthless. He doesn't keep up on the schedule so if a team drops out

or moves he doesn't notify the team they're playing and show up to wrong

location or to no team to play. So it depends on what you consider "worth

your time." Some will payout better, some are operated better, and some

are more fun.
 
This is how I roll: I play leagues for the sake of having someone else to play against other than my wife. I have a home table and a bottle of Crown Royal, but it gets old whuppin'-up on the little lady night in and night out, so I play leagues simply for the fun of new/better competition. I don't care if I EVER make a single penny off of it. I don't care if I ever get a trip to Vegas from it. I don't even care if our team finishes in dead last place every session. I just want to PLAY SOMEONE. Hell, if I could get a few different guys/gals to come over to the house several times a week (night or day) and play me for a few hours, I wouldn't even play in leagues. I do leagues to play someone, not to make $$$ from it.

Now, what I personally can't fade in leagues is the cheaters/poor sports/bad table-side etiquette etc. It gets down-right nasty some of the lengths some people will go to to win a game/match/session. It actually saddens an honest, considerate person (that I consider myself to be) to share table time with some of the buffoons I have seen over the years.

So enough of my ranting. If you are in leagues looking for a payout you're, for the most part, barking up the wrong tree. You're better off going back to gambling if you are looking to "score".

Maniac
 
bignik957 said:
I play in a great BCA pool league it has 3-man teams you play 6 games each night playing each player twice giving each player an opportunity to break. Last session we had 34 teams played 19 weeks and we pay $8 per week and tables are open, and we play on 7 foot diamonds. If I remember right we took third and got back I believe just over $500. It is a handicaped league and is very fair with no preferencial treatment for anyone our LO runs the league and pays back 100% of our weekly fees plus throws a nice banquet at seasons end. It is by far the best league i've ever been associated with, and i've been playing leagues for 20 yrs.
Click to expand...


34 teams X 8 per player X 3 players each team X 19 weeks = 15,504

and you got 500 for third.

Either your numbers are off or it is far from a 100% payback as you describe.
 
Maniac said:
This is how I roll: I play leagues for the sake of having someone else to play against other than my wife. I have a home table and a bottle of Crown Royal, but it gets old whuppin'-up on the little lady night in and night out, so I play leagues simply for the fun of new/better competition. I don't care if I EVER make a single penny off of it. I don't care if I ever get a trip to Vegas from it. I don't even care if our team finishes in dead last place every session. I just want to PLAY SOMEONE. Hell, if I could get a few different guys/gals to come over to the house several times a week (night or day) and play me for a few hours, I wouldn't even play in leagues. I do leagues to play someone, not to make $$$ from it.

Now, what I personally can't fade in leagues is the cheaters/poor sports/bad table-side etiquette etc. It gets down-right nasty some of the lengths some people will go to to win a game/match/session. It actually saddens an honest, considerate person (that I consider myself to be) to share table time with some of the buffoons I have seen over the years.

So enough of my ranting. If you are in leagues looking for a payout you're, for the most part, barking up the wrong tree. You're better off going back to gambling if you are looking to "score".

Maniac
Click to expand...

I hear you about playing with the wife. I've recently purchased a second pool table for my basement, a valley bar box from craigslist for $100. Great fun. My wife, who does not like playing on my 9' Diamond pro because of pocketing difficulty actually will play on the bar box, which is cool. She feels that every shot does not require a "heroic" effort. Anyway, I want to practice hard every chance I get at the table, so I played a set of 9 ball on the BB spotting her the last 5. That's a hell of a spot to fade, it turns out, and makes the game really fun. She can win, or so could I. I have a feeling that as she catches on, that spot will go away, assuming she remains interested.

I also agree with you about the bad sportsmanship. Just last night, our opposing team actually began to break down their cues and began to leave after their captain and another player was about 20 minutes late for the match. I complained, telling them that I came to play and did not want to waste my time. They told me that their captain did this every week and even they were sick of it. Total disrespect, IMO.
 
Thanks for the comments everyone. I didn't get flamed as hard as I expected.

A big part of the problem is our captain asked the op what first for a session would pay BEFORE we signed up, and he was told 1200-1500, which I think it fair.

THEN the WEEK BEFORE the end of the session, he asked again and was told 1st for session would get 1200$, and 1st in their 'special' tournament would get another 1200$, 2nd 650, etc.

So we take first for the session, 2nd in the tournament and get 450$ total (or whatever, close to that number).

Thats a BIG part of why I am pissed.

Anyway, good posts, everyone, plenty to think about there.
 
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