League Operators

Snapshot9

Snapshot9

son of 3 leg 1 eye dog ..
Silver Member
I am not a room owner, but this is a subject I want to find out more information on. I have published a billiards newsletter in my area for
about 3 years in the past, and there have been several times that
the opportunity for running or starting a league has arisen.

How do the league operators make any money for doing everything when the leagues are 100% payback? We have sanctioned leagues here, inhouse leagues, and city leagues. Paybacks are usually either 90%, 100%, or 110% with 100% payback being the standard.

I have also been part of a group of adult players wanting to get Junior
leagues started in our area.

I put a lot of time and energy into publishing the newsletter, called 'The Green Felt', as I wrote all the articles, did all the Ads, got the supplies, printed it on my printer (1500 copies 6 pages long), and distributed to all the major Pool rooms, league operators for the packets, etc.. for FREE.
I did not make any money and did good just to break even. I had a good friend and photographer that took pictures of events for me. And it was with pictures, ads, articles, tips, tournament results, wanted/for sale section, and listed all relevant tournaments from weeklies, monthlies, and special tournaments, including all 3 ball tournaments around town, and it was in color.

The point being, I would run a league, not one of the normal ones, but more for the semipro status (advanced) if I would make a little money along with it, but I know it is a great deal of work. Basically, if it could pay me like a part time job would, I would do it. But, I am not going to use all my resources and time doing it for free.

Computers was my profession and area of expertise, so I can handle any programming or systems development related to a league.

So I want to get an idea of what league operators make for running a league? And the inner details of that.
 
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Scott,
I was just interviewed by "Cheese Akerlow" who publishes The Break (it also is distributed for free) for an article on me next month. The Break covers MT, ID, WA, OR, NV, and CA. He came out and we spent several hours talking pool etc. He is very successful at this and a very good source for you. I am sure after he has the February issue tucked up he or his wife Mary could give you some pointers. Go to www.onthebreaknews.com. Good luck. You might also see if Mike Howerton (AZ Housepro) can give you some advice - he publishes a similar publication in Arizona.
 
Rather then try to start your own league, you might look into buying ownership of your territory in the TAP league. You will likely get more players if there is a national money event. Also TAP is the host event at the Super Billiards Expo

www.tapleague.com
 
Snapshot9 said:
I am not a room owner, but this is a subject I want to find out more information on. I have published a billiards newsletter in my area for
about 3 years in the past, and there have been several times that
the opportunity for running or starting a league has arisen.

How do the league operators make any money for doing everything when the leagues are 100% payback? We have sanctioned leagues here, inhouse leagues, and city leagues. Paybacks are usually either 90%, 100%, or 110% with 100% payback being the standard.

I have also been part of a group of adult players wanting to get Junior
leagues started in our area.

I put a lot of time and energy into publishing the newsletter, called 'The Green Felt', as I wrote all the articles, did all the Ads, got the supplies, printed it on my printer (1500 copies 6 pages long), and distributed to all the major Pool rooms, league operators for the packets, etc.. for FREE.
I did not make any money and did good just to break even. I had a good friend and photographer that took pictures of events for me. And it was with pictures, ads, articles, tips, tournament results, wanted/for sale section, and listed all relevant tournaments from weeklies, monthlies, and special tournaments, including all 3 ball tournaments around town, and it was in color.

The point being, I would run a league, not one of the normal ones, but more for the semipro status (advanced) if I would make a little money along with it, but I know it is a great deal of work. Basically, if it could pay me like a part time job would, I would do it. But, I am not going to use all my resources and time doing it for free.

Computers was my profession and area of expertise, so I can handle any programming or systems development related to a league.

So I want to get an idea of what league operators make for running a league? And the inner details of that.
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My question is this - how would I make money from a league as a room owner? From what I have read from your post - the players and the league operator will make money - but what about the pool halls that are dying? I have never had any of the leagues increase my profits AT ALL. The players come in - they play pool and then they leave. If they play league on the bar boxes that even worse. Unless people start to realize that these leagues are KILLING pool halls and filling the pockets of the vendors, then I will view them as a terminal disease for my business. Many leagues rotate in and out of the establishment every week - taking my customers to somebody's corner bar. When the leagues do play here nobody spends a dime. Just like you, Scott, I won't put my time and resources out there for free either. In-house leagues work a bit better, not by much because I still have the same players that show up to play pool without spending money. Some of the league players have the audacity to ask for free pool during the week also. Go figure. I wish you the best of luck with your endeavor, just remember that the room owners need to make money on league night to justify having a league at all.
 
Blackjack said:
My question is this - how would I make money from a league as a room owner? From what I have read from your post - the players and the league operator will make money - but what about the pool halls that are dying? I have never had any of the leagues increase my profits AT ALL. The players come in - they play pool and then they leave. If they play league on the bar boxes that even worse. Unless people start to realize that these leagues are KILLING pool halls and filling the pockets of the vendors, then I will view them as a terminal disease for my business. Many leagues rotate in and out of the establishment every week - taking my customers to somebody's corner bar. When the leagues do play here nobody spends a dime. Just like you, Scott, I won't put my time and resources out there for free either. In-house leagues work a bit better, not by much because I still have the same players that show up to play pool without spending money. Some of the league players have the audacity to ask for free pool during the week also. Go figure. I wish you the best of luck with your endeavor, just remember that the room owners need to make money on league night to justify having a league at all.
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Wow, maybe I am naive, but when I play in a league at my local pool hall, here is the breakdown:


$6 table time per person X 5 players, X 20 tables = $600 per night

(2) teams and (2) tables per match.

22 weeks X $600 = 13,200 per league table time

3 nights a week = $30,600

Plus, on every league I see around here, they take $1 to $2 per week per player admin fee.

Plus food and drink.

They are not winning the lottery, but the parking lot is full. How can that be bad?
 
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Very few leagues make money for room owners. We have inhouse leagues and lose money every time. So we keep it to a minimum. Never on busy nights. The only suggestion I could give is give league players a discounted, NOT free, pool time on your slow nights and hope to make it up by alcohol sales. Don't fret about them asking for everything...that is normal. If you gave every player a $100 bill when they walked in the door...someone will ask for $200. Just the nature of our sport. Another option is asking for a bigger % from your vendors if you have bar box tables. Or have them contribute to the payout so you dont have to. If they refuse you can always get a loan and put in your own barboxes. Expensive but well worth it in the long run. Short run will s*ck! In 6-9 mos you will be making more money. Just dont ever forget the bangers that in reality support your business. If you are favoring the complainers that never spend money and ignoring the hopeless college student or bangers that never say a word...you are dooming yourself. It is rare that the complaining regulars are your primary source of income. You always have to remember. Its a business, not a party. If they are only your friends when you are GIVING them something..free pool...free drinks...free cable tv...free loitering...then DTMFA. Repeat: Its a business. Treat it like one. Or..you can always go broke instead:rolleyes:

A local bar owner here has my favorite saying about a business' clientel.
"Sometimes there is an addition, by making a subtraction.

Getting rid of some customers that make you miserable (regardless of their spending habits) might have some unexpected emotional AND financial benefits. Good luck.
 
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MFB said:
Wow, maybe I am naive, but when I play in a league at my local pool hall, here is the breakdown:


$6 table time per person X 5 players, X 20 tables = $600 per night

(2) teams and (2) tables per match.

22 weeks X $600 = 13,200 per league table time

3 nights a week = $30,600

Plus, on every league I see around here, they take $1 to $2 per week per player admin fee.

Plus food and drink.

They are not winning the lottery, but the parking lot is full. How can that be bad?
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With all due respect - I have heard this type of league sales pitch before. If what you stated happened in reality then everybody would be making money in our business and leagues would be the answer to all of our problems. The fact is that its not reality.

Reality is that I would never run league on 20 tables a night 3 times a week. If they do that at your room, I tip my hat to the room owner.

Most of the leagues that are here in El Paso are run on bar boxes. I don't charge an hourly rate on my bar tables. So you can deduct the astronmical table time projection you made in your post. Even with inhouse leagues, it is usually limited to 6-8 tables - I don't make any more on the time during a league night than I would during a non league night. The selling point that many leagues sell to room owners is this dream that we don't need to charge for the table time because we will attract more players that will spend money in our establishment on league night. A large bulk of the money spent in my room is spent by the occasional player that might bring his girlfriend to shoot pool and have a few drinks - not league players. We are now in the process fo evaluating an in-house league and the fact is that the numbers are basically the same with or without the leagues. Your numbers sound good on paper, but its does not fall in line with my experience with any of the leagues.
 
Blackjack said:
With all due respect - I have heard this type of league sales pitch before. If what you stated happened in reality then everybody would be making money in our business and leagues would be the answer to all of our problems. The fact is that its not reality.

Reality is that I would never run league on 20 tables a night 3 times a week. If they do that at your room, I tip my hat to the room owner.

Most of the leagues that are here in El Paso are run on bar boxes. I don't charge an hourly rate on my bar tables. So you can deduct the astronmical table time projection you made in your post. Even with inhouse leagues, it is usually limited to 6-8 tables - I don't make any more on the time during a league night than I would during a non league night. The selling point that many leagues sell to room owners is this dream that we don't need to charge for the table time because we will attract more players that will spend money in our establishment on league night. A large bulk of the money spent in my room is spent by the occasional player that might bring his girlfriend to shoot pool and have a few drinks - not league players. We are now in the process fo evaluating an in-house league and the fact is that the numbers are basically the same with or without the leagues. Your numbers sound good on paper, but its does not fall in line with my experience with any of the leagues.
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FWIW, I am not trying to sell anyone, I am just passing along my experience.

And I agree, there is no free lunch, and you got to pay table time. The room I play in I guess is in a unique situation. Actually I am headed there right now for Monday night leagues. We are lucky to play on diamond barboxes, ball return, no coin mechanism (it's all hourly). For our $6 table time, we can play from 5 PM to about 1 AM. Obviously, most people don't stay that late, or come that early. Leagues start at 7 PM, and are over by 9-9:30. Some will have dinner or drinks, some will sip one pop (you know how that goes I am sure).

I guess I am lucky.:D :D :D
 
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Leagues are critical today for the success of a new pool room. It is hard for a new room to draw higher level players by the very fact that they are new. League players will visit your room at least once a week fifty weeks a year. In-house leagues will provide a foundation for the new business that banks like to see.

We currently run leagues Mon. thru Thu. and Sunday afternoon (womens league). With 90 teams playing weekly I can tell you with certainty how much revenue will be generated on league nights. Same people same night same drinking and eating habits. Stay away from leagues on Friday and Saturday as they are good for daytime tournaments and weekend play at peak hourly rates. Get in touch with whoever is operating the largest and most successful leagues in your area. APA, BCA, TAP it really doesn't make a difference. I'm APA because their presence in my area is dominant, therefore Im able to capitalize on the dominance by offering all those amenities ( pool tables, food, drink, pro shop ) which many of my competitors do not. League players bond with other league players establishing life long friendships and leagues bring recognition to your room.

I'm rambling, but in closing I feel leagues can be a big plus for any pool hall. They're repeat business that you come back every week.
 
Tap?

I don't know much about pool leagues- other than BCA. But I have to say that any organization that has a sentence like this:

"...There will be a great advantage to a team caption using this service to pick the order of play for there team..."

... on the home page of their web site makes our industry look even worse than K.T. is making it look.

Makes me appreciate Mark Griffin all the more!
 
Casual Observer said:
"...There will be a great advantage to a team caption using this service to pick the order of play for there team..."

... on the home page of their web site makes our industry look even worse than K.T. is making it look.
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Apf. Bad grammar is worse than fraud? You have some odd priorities.

As far as Blackjack's comments as a room owner - Don't take this as getting on your case at all, but I have to ask - what are *you* doing to get these league players to spend some more moolah when they're there?

As a league player for the past four years, I can say (at least for myself) that I tend to have a couple of beers and dinner at the place we're playing each week. But most of the places I play (traveling league) have kitchens, and I'd wager that of the money those places are taking in due to leagues, that's a good chunk. Not everyone wants to get plowed drunk on league night, as they want to play well.

If you're not charging anything for table time for leagues, you ought to. Maybe not 100% full price, but something.
 
ScottW said:
Apf. Bad grammar is worse than fraud? You have some odd priorities.

As far as Blackjack's comments as a room owner - Don't take this as getting on your case at all, but I have to ask - what are *you* doing to get these league players to spend some more moolah when they're there?

As a league player for the past four years, I can say (at least for myself) that I tend to have a couple of beers and dinner at the place we're playing each week. But most of the places I play (traveling league) have kitchens, and I'd wager that of the money those places are taking in due to leagues, that's a good chunk. Not everyone wants to get plowed drunk on league night, as they want to play well.

If you're not charging anything for table time for leagues, you ought to. Maybe not 100% full price, but something.
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Scott

99% of the league players couldn't care less whether or not I make money in order to pay my bills. They come in for league night and when asked to pay for the table after league is over they look at me as if I am wrong and they leave. I'm not in business to make friends, I am in business to make money. Why is it that only 1% of the players understand this? If I had a league full of players that supported me the way you support your room then I would not have this attitude. Guys like you are are few and far between and I know many room owners (not all) will agree with me on that.

I have done many things to accomodate the leagues in the past and in the end I always came out on the losing end. If my sales increase, then offering discounts doesn't hurt at all. However, offering discounts in exchange for no loyalty, no appreciation, no consideration, and making no money from the league players is something I would rather do without. There are many players that are only hanging around to see what they can get for free or half price. You may not be one of those players, however they are the majority that I see. Remember that I am the one that counts the register receipts at the end of the day. I know where I make and don't make my money. All I ask is that the league players support the pool hall. All too often that doesn't happen. I am in a position right now where I have the lowest rates in the entire city. My drink prices are well below the norm - I have hit the point where I can no longer offer discounts without hurting my chances of breaking even. IMO, I have done all that I can for them, now its time for them to do for me. I don't think that its out of line for a room owner to make that request at all. Do you?
 
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Have you considered taking this up with the league operators who have teams in your hall? Maybe putting a little pressure on them to put a little pressure on their teams might help. I doubt you want to simply cut leagues out - the "nuclear option", heh - but you're running a business, and frankly, so are the league operators.
 
ScottW said:
Have you considered taking this up with the league operators who have teams in your hall? Maybe putting a little pressure on them to put a little pressure on their teams might help. I doubt you want to simply cut leagues out - the "nuclear option", heh - but you're running a business, and frankly, so are the league operators.
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Many of the league operators I have talked to don't have the sligtest clue as to why my business exists. If they are running a business then why don't the league operators open up their own pool hall and give away their own free/discounted table time? I am sure they will come away from that experience with a different point of view and NO MONEY. The league operators are loyal to their players, which is understandable - but remember something very important: I need to be loyal to my business and I need to make money. I am not the only room owner that has this attitude.

Players need to understand that a pool hall is a business, not a hangout. I pay for the lights, the rent, the heat, the A/C, I purchase sales items, beer, I pay for repairs, I replace the cues that they abuse on a daily basis, the cloth - the toilets - I even buy the toilet paper. The money to cover all of that doesn't fall from the sky and its certainly not generated from league night sales. I need to open the doors every day and make money, not lose it. I am not about to jeapordize my business because a league operator wants some perks in my pool room for their players. That is all they are asking for. As far as I am concerned they can go elsewhere and try to get over on somebody else. I prefer customers that support my business and help my business grow. I can't do that strictly with leagues.

I suggest that you talk to some room owners and ask them where they make their money. Its not from the "players" or the leagues. I'm not saying that all leagues are bad, I am just saying that in my experience their presence does not increase my sales at all, and I know for a fact I am not alone.
 
Comments ...

With all due respect gentlemen, this thread was about how league operators make money running leagues, and how much in a ballpark sense, not room owners or managers.

Thanks.
 
Snapshot9 said:
With all due respect gentlemen, this thread was about how league operators make money running leagues, and how much in a ballpark sense, not room owners or managers.

Thanks.
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With all due respect, this forum is for room owners - so that is pretty much the perspective you will get when you ask a question here.
 
Snapshot9 said:
With all due respect gentlemen, this thread was about how league operators make money running leagues, and how much in a ballpark sense, not room owners or managers.

Thanks.
Click to expand...

If room owners are not making any money; then who is going to PAY the league operators? Are all the players going to get together and pay him every week? Unlikely. If room owners are losing money and paying a league operator for the privelege of doing so...they are not going to want leagues there very long. For the good of our sport, people need to not only look at the bigger picture, but need to look at the LONG run of what financial effects are going on. Losing money on certain nights are part of business. Losing money on an entire venture like leagues for months at a time is bad for everyone. A SMART league operator who actually likes to work hard will figure out a way for both himself/herself to make money AND make money for the room/bar owner. This would have to be tailored differently with every business. One of the smartest things a league operator can do is base his pay on a % of profit he brings to the pool room. Then he will be welcome in every room in town. Pool benefits as a whole too.
 
I understand where everyone is coming from on this thread, however, my situation is different. Currently this session, I have 6 APA teams and 5 BCA teams playing out of my establishment. I think that the amount of money you make as a room owner from the pool leagues is solely based on what you offer them.

While it is true that I make no money from table time, since I do not have coin operated tables, the leagues still bring a continuous flow of of people into my business. These people purchase beer, snacks, food, and I do make decent money from the sale of billiard related item's in my pro-shop, not to mention on the spot cue repairs, tips, shaft cleaning and waxing, re-tapering / turning down, and wraps while the players are playing league.

The repair services I offer alone more than cover the table time I would have made renting those same tables. But, the best part is that when people see the work that I do, these same people return whenever they need additional repairs not just during league play. They also bring in equipment for their friends or they bring in their friends to show them the repairs I offer. This portion of my business, as well as retail sales has grown more than anything else during the last 2 1/2 yr's, and I can attribute most of this growth to the pool leagues that play out of my business. One thing that I am completely certain of, is that word of mouth advertising is better than any other form, as long as it is positive.

For my room leagues are a good form of advertising the services offered by my business, and I take full advantage of it.

Have a great night!!!!!!
 
Maybe a bit long, but use it for what it's worth... highlighted some later sections for easier perusal.

I have participated and helped run leagues for a few years and am pursuing further opportunities. From my experience and research it makes a big difference what kind of league you have and promote.

Blackjack, sounds like you've had many negative experiences with leagues. In my experience, the room owners benefit significantly from leagues. What kinds of leagues have you had and for how long?

From what I know about you on here, my suspicion is that you would offer leagues that cater to the stronger players... This is admirable for all the reasons, that I know you aspire for the overall enhancement of pool. Reality is that this group is currently least likely to produce rewards for the pool hall owners. This is the unfortunate paradox. This is the frustration...

BCA type leagues (which are strong in your area) tends to favor those stronger players. Unfortunately the stronger players rarely spend large tabs. Many stronger players can not get drunk and still play well (some exceptions of course). Also, in order to be strong players they usually spend a good deal of time in pool halls. This may sound like a promising note for the pool hall owners, but in actuality it's not. Whatever they make and have to spend, they're gonna spread it out, and spend it slower throughout the course of the week, possibly even at multiple different establishments. Secondly, these players are already dedicated to the game, thus, without the league, they're gonna spend about the same amount of money and time in the pool hall anyway. So these leagues often do not increase your customer base, or at least not much. This results in frustration from pool room operators.

I have had some affiliation with APA leagues. APA leagues have many benefits. It works well for their clientele of players, their league operator, and also for the pool establishment owners. The focus of their league is to provide a fun night of pool for its players. The APA has the broadest range of players from some pretty strong all the way down to some very beginner players. This broad range of appeal is one of their strongest assets. Are they the best? Maybe, or maybe not that could be argued. But the APA is the biggest by far, and for good reason. This appeal to such a wide range of players is key.

Note, the Friday and Saturday date night bangers are the cream of the crop for the Pool Establishments. They usually spend readily on pool, food, and alcohol, and bring in nice eye candy to the establishment, which encourages other people to follow. Wouldn't it be nice if your establishment could have more than 2 nights of that date night crowd? Probably not for the pool purists and afficionados, but for room owners... Think about it. This is exactly the market that the APA appeals strongest to. Those lower rated players, men and women are strongly encouraged / necessary for the APA leagues.

The other fact is that many will play in the APA, while some (and I stress some) will aspire and do what it takes to improve their game. At some point, these players will move on to play and compete with those other already existing stronger players. This enlarges your market of your already existing dedicated regular pool players. Bringing some people from beginner pool players to dedicated regulars, without the high level of frustration that causes many of them to otherwise give up.

In addition, the APA provides some nice opportunities for some stronger players to go compete against strong players in their Las Vegas competition. The BCA Las Vegas competitions are also full of strong competition for strong players. So some may wish to take advantage of the opportunities available in both. Since APA has that broad range of appeal, it also has some very nice opportunities for medium, and weaker players in their Las Vegas competitions or local ones too.

NOTE: Some people are compelled to APA bash. Often it's not worth the argument. The pool community will be much better off, when we allow all to go and play and participate in whichever environment is best for them. To each their own...

If I were to promote a BCA type league, I'd focus on those stronger players.
If I were to promote an APA league, I'd focus on that broader market.

The establishments where I've started an APA league have benefitted quickly, and have promptly come back and requested more.
 
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