League play: good news and bad news

jjinfla said:
Think of it as "sacrificing yourself for the good of the team".

Ha Ha.

Just like a baseball player puts down a bunt, or grounds to 2nd to advance a runner or hits a long sacrifice fly to score a run.

Same in football.

When playing on a team one must do what is good for the team. And that is not always what is best for the individual. Otherwise why play on a team?

Save your best games for tournament play or gambling one on one.

And yes I have come to believe that gambling, even for small sums, is the best way to improve your game. Just find someone who plays the same speed as you or slightly better. That way you just take turns holding the money.

Those of you who like to tout the "sandbagging is wrong" mantra have all been hoodwinked by the league operators. It is in their best interests for everyone to play their best because then it splits up the team and brings in more players for the operators. And that means more money in their pocket. And what happens to the team? It breaks up and can't win any money or go to Vegas.

Jake
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Your baseball analogy is horrible. In baseball, a player's individual statistics are not harmed by a sacrifice fly or a sacrifice bunt - they don't even count as official at-bats. In fact, in the cases where sacrifices result in runs scored (RBI), a player's individual statistics increase. Sacrifices are a sound strategy in baseball, and players, as well as their teams, are rewarded for them. Sacrifice doesn't mean "to play bad on purpose." Sandbagging in a pool league isn't a sacrifice, it's stupid, it's cheating, it's dishonest, it's a waste of time, and it's a waste of money.

Where do you see sacrifices in football?

It seems to me that you have a skewed version of what "for the good of the team" means. To me, since league players aren't professional athletes and aren't going to get rich playing in leagues, "good of the team" means people who play to the best of their abilities, get along with each other, have fun, and try to get better. Winning, losing, and definitely losing on purpose don't even factor into that particular equation.

In my opinion, anybody who touts "sandbagging is right" probably can't play very well, doesn't think very well, or has incredibly low self-esteem. Your advocation of sandbagging leads me to believe that you're proud of mediocrity and believe it should be rewarded - you don't think players should even try to get better, or they won't be able to play in a league anymore. Personally, I think excellence should be rewarded and is its own reward, but maybe that's just me.

It seems to me that your biggest gripe is that leagues are in business to make money and sandbagging is your way to "stick it to the man." Their obvious formula is to have handicaps go up as players get better so new players are constantly fed into the system. This is no secret, and obviously the system works - players have fun, some make money in Vegas, and the business still makes at least enough money for the leagues to continue to operate. Would you rather have the leagues go out of business? Then NOBODY goes to Vegas. Yeah, that sounds like a better scenario....:rolleyes:

Since when did it become wrong in this country for businesses to make money? I don't hear anybody whining about Bill Gates having more money than God. Why are you so worried about your $10/week league dues? If you can't afford it, or you're worried about a return on that investment, put your money in a 401k - don't waste time in a league.

-djb <-- not surprised to learn that Jake approves of sandbagging
 
That's why I don't play in those types of leagues. Out here we are fortunate to have the USPPA, which does not require sandbagging....you just go out an play your game. Makes for a much more enjoyable experience.

I had considered TAP, but it was just not my cup of tea, so I opted out. We do have BCA leagues, but it's a drive to get to them. I wish the USPPA were bigger.

Lisa
 
Yeah if you are that worried about how it is affecting your game or team have your team change leagues and play BCA/ACS. There are no skill caps, you all can try to play your outright best and then you can have inter-team competitions like most breakandruns, 8onbreak, table runs, winning % etc. To me those types of league are better to accelerate your progress because you have something to strive for and a reason to get better. Wanting to stay a 3 or 4 in a TAP/APA league does nothing for your game. And in the long run you will be caught or moved up. At the National APA team 8ball tourney last year a team from Brooklyn NY we lost to had a girl 3 that ran two straight racks on our 4 with perfect shape and speed control. We wrote on the sheet for a tournamanet employee to watch her. By the last match she played they had moved her up to a 5. It will turn out badly.

Or...reorganize your team next session where you know you will go up to your real level and it won't affect the team.
 
In the VNEA there has been no problem with handicaps. The only leagues that use handicaps are for the bangers. Go to the State or Vegas handicaps are not used. BCA is coming this season to the area and I'm going to try it out.

Tried sandbagging once and it left a bitter taste in my mouth...
 
I agree with PROG8R.

Letting up can stick with you for a "long" time...Solid consistent focus is one of the hardest things to learn about pool.

There are very few times were I would let up...(playing my 6 year old duaghter would be one)....but there is nothing wrong with letting everyone know you just missed a shot or got out of line or got beat etc etc.
 
I know in the USPPA league that I play in, we had teams of 4, and played that way throughout the season. When time for playoffs rolled around, there is no team playoffs....it is strictly individual playoffs, with handicaps of 0-5. This was my first year, and I finished up as a 2 handicap, partly because I had a slump that lasted about a month or so in the middle. During playoffs, I wound up in the 'hot seat' for 1st and a trip to Reno.....took it H/H against a 1 handicap and basically choked on the out. Dropped to the 3rd place bracket against a 0 handicap ( 0 being the top players ), took it H/H again, for another Reno trip, and AGAIN choked on the out. I did not deserve the Reno trips that day. I finished the season in 5th overall. Some lessons learned that I won't repeat next season. But not too bad for a girl who didn't really play 9 Ball in a league setting until this year.:)

I just wish it would hurry up and start up again.....I'm ready for more!! And that is what a good league experience should leave you with....chomping at the bit for the next season to start!:D

Lisa
 
Looks like I hit a nerve, I'll attempt to explain. I played in a weekly tournament 3 times. My record was 1 win and 6 losses. Not once did I play anybody rated as high as me, I had to give up games on the wire to everybody I lost to and my handicap never went down. I joined a league at the same place and my handicap is so high that I literally have to win every game to avoid being a drag on the team.

I'm not that good. I've found that I enjoy just going to the pool room and playing whoever shows up more than the organized stuff and that was the intent of my original post. I've never dumped a game although I've lost my share, but I've played people who were doing exactly that and it's not enjoyable to me.

On a positive note, I played a set of equal offense at the pool room in a barbox just for the heck of it and got a 92. Not bad for a guy who couldn't run 3 balls a year ago.
 
alstl said:
On a positive note, I played a set of equal offense at the pool room in a barbox just for the heck of it and got a 92. Not bad for a guy who couldn't run 3 balls a year ago.
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In English Please ^^^^ What does that mean?
 
Quit the league now! Go play in a regional pro-am event. Get your ass handed to you by a shortstop then refocuse yourself on improving.

Your league is a waste of time.
 
I tried doing the sandbagging thing last session in the APA 8ball league i am on and it didnt work, i still stayed a SL6 even though i was losing.

And since i became a SL6 which was in the first session of 8ball last fall i was 6wins and 18losses.

When i first became a 6 i was happy but then i couldnt win at all, and lost my next 5 matches very badly, and still wasnt moved down. So then i was just putting myself up against the toughest player on the other team knowing i would get beat, and still didnt go down. But the second session of 8ball i won 5 matches all the matches i won was against someone who was a SL4 or lower and the other was against a SL5 who really should be a 4 too lol.

But in the end i figured if i cant go down i might as well start playing like a APA6 and just deal with it. Which is what i have done, and also i decided to put myself up against players who i know i can beat but still will have a tough time with, and have to play my best to win, be it they are a 4,5 or 6 handicap.

Now i have always believed that you can make someone a lower handicap rating by just playing them against tougher opponets whom they shouldnt beat. So obviously thier handicap will be lower. Its not really sandbagging cuz they still will play thier best but still lose.


dave
 
alstl said:
The good news is that one year after I bought my first cue I'm a lot better than I was. So good in fact that now I have to dump games in the league to keep my handicap from getting to high and help out the team. I realize that's the way it is in the league but it ain't a lot of fun.
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Just quit you don't need that stuff. You play the game for your own satisfaction, not to be used or prostituted by others.
 
StormHotRod300 said:
I tried doing the sandbagging thing last session in the APA 8ball league i am on and it didnt work, i still stayed a SL6 even though i was losing.

And since i became a SL6 which was in the first session of 8ball last fall i was 6wins and 18losses.

When i first became a 6 i was happy but then i couldnt win at all, and lost my next 5 matches very badly, and still wasnt moved down. So then i was just putting myself up against the toughest player on the other team knowing i would get beat, and still didnt go down. But the second session of 8ball i won 5 matches all the matches i won was against someone who was a SL4 or lower and the other was against a SL5 who really should be a 4 too lol.

But in the end i figured if i cant go down i might as well start playing like a APA6 and just deal with it. Which is what i have done, and also i decided to put myself up against players who i know i can beat but still will have a tough time with, and have to play my best to win, be it they are a 4,5 or 6 handicap.

Now i have always believed that you can make someone a lower handicap rating by just playing them against tougher opponets whom they shouldnt beat. So obviously thier handicap will be lower. Its not really sandbagging cuz they still will play thier best but still lose.


dave
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Dave,
With APA its all about the innings!!! INNINGS, INNINGS, INNINGS!!! You can put yourself up against players that will beat you silly, but if your average innings per game is low, you'll still be a 6! You can lose to another SL6, 5-1 in 6 total innings and you'll still be a SL6. Run up the innings...
If you lose 18 out of 24 and each your average innings is 4-5 innings per game, then you will drop down to a 5..
Hope that helps...
-Erik
 
DoomCue said:
Since when did it become wrong in this country for businesses to make money? I don't hear anybody whining about Bill Gates having more money than God.
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You don't? I hear people whining about that ALL THE TIME! Unless I"m mistaken, the federal government even whined about it quite a bit in an anti-trust case a few years back.

Sorry, I agree with everything you said about sand-bagging; we're totally on the same page there, so really this post is totally irrelevant to the topic at hand. I just had to point out that your point about money-making practices using Bill Gates as an example was sort of flawed.

-Andrew
 
I've read this whole thing now, when it first started I posted to what I thought, you were saying. Now I have no clue as to what your trying to get answer to.

Black Cat. :cool:
 
Hey storm I know a man who moved up to a 5 and was upset. So he kept losing until he was dropped to a 4, it took 10 straight losses, then the next week he won and was moved back up to a 5. He finally accepted it and just plays as a 5.

Keep in mind that good wins stay with you for 20 weeks where terrible losses might not even count against you.

Here is an oxymoron: good player who is a sl5.

The league is what it is. You can learn the rules and play within them and around them, just don't fight them. Most people with the label of sandbagger are in fact just average bad players. They have good nights and they have bad nights. They never practice and just play league for an hour a week.

If you really want to play your best then join the APA masters league. That is closer to BCA leagues. But if you want to go anywhere you better load up your team. No sandbaggers there.

The problem I have with league play is that it just goes on and on and never ends.

Jake
 
League play is but not limited to the following things:

1. A social function.
2. An opportunity to drink
3. An opportunity to smoke alot of cigarettes.
4. An avenue to spend money on a trip to vegas. Something I have never been taken by.
5. An opportunity to hit on sleezy women.

What league is not:

1. A way to improve your game.
2. A way to judge how good you are.

Personally I love league, I play in one every week. I spank most people I face, but that doesn't mean anything. I am a bca 9 but that doesn't mean anything. The other night I was shooting perfect against chumps. But Hillbilly was sitting in the next room. If hillbilly would have played me he would have showed what my 9 really means. :rolleyes:

You have to keep league success in perspective.
 
jjinfla said:
Hey storm I know a man who moved up to a 5 and was upset. So he kept losing until he was dropped to a 4, it took 10 straight losses, then the next week he won and was moved back up to a 5. He finally accepted it and just plays as a 5.
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So he tried to cheat to no avail. Good for him.

jjinfla said:
Keep in mind that good wins stay with you for 20 weeks where terrible losses might not even count against you.
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This is totally wrong and it's nothing more than complete conjecture on your part. You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about so please stop spreading misinformation. Somebody who doesn't know any better may actually start to believe your nonsense.

jjinfla said:
Here is an oxymoron: good player who is a sl5.
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I've got some more oxymorons for you, but I don't want people to think I'm being mean to you.

jjinfla said:
The league is what it is. You can learn the rules and play within them and around them, just don't fight them. Most people with the label of sandbagger are in fact just average bad players. They have good nights and they have bad nights. They never practice and just play league for an hour a week.
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Hooray! You've got league night figured out! It isn't life or death, and there's no life-changing money at stake.

jjinfla said:
If you really want to play your best then join the APA masters league. That is closer to BCA leagues. But if you want to go anywhere you better load up your team. No sandbaggers there.
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So if you don't want to play your best, play regular APA? That's sound advice - "don't try hard, you might actually succeed" :rolleyes: . You're right about one thing, there's no sandbagging in Masters - there's no handicap.

jjinfla said:
The problem I have with league play is that it just goes on and on and never ends.
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Then by all means, quit.

-djb
 
mnorwood said:
What league is not:

1. A way to improve your game.
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Wrong, wrong, DEAD wrong. To a point.

League is GREAT for improving your game - but to a certain limit.

I'm proof - when I joined my current APA team 3 years ago, I was awful. A banger. And I started learning fast. Started as a 4, went up to a 5 at the end of the session. To a 6 three or four sessions later. And if I keep playing the way I've been lately (won two matches tonight, in fact) I'll end up a 7 before the end of the year.

But - in recent months, all my improvement *has* come from playing *outside* the league.

Folks who stay in leagues and basically "top-out" on their skill level, as far as being able to pick things up from other folks in the league, they're pretty much stuck, I will agree. In my league I'm one of few folks who play outside it, playing in tournaments/etc.
 
DoomCue said:
So he tried to cheat to no avail. Good for him.



This is totally wrong and it's nothing more than complete conjecture on your part. You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about so please stop spreading misinformation. Somebody who doesn't know any better may actually start to believe your nonsense.



I've got some more oxymorons for you, but I don't want people to think I'm being mean to you.



Hooray! You've got league night figured out! It isn't life or death, and there's no life-changing money at stake.



So if you don't want to play your best, play regular APA? That's sound advice - "don't try hard, you might actually succeed" :rolleyes: . You're right about one thing, there's no sandbagging in Masters - there's no handicap.



Then by all means, quit.

-djb
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I agree with every assessment you make here.

You are not being mean spirited, just forthcoming with facts.

I have long stopped correcting people on MBs about misinformation and bar leagues.

Just a few days ago, a long thread about APA and jumped balls was posted, and everyone was saying how you are allowed to jump balls in the APA leagues.

The information is clearly posted on page seven of the Official APA 8 and 9 ball Rules Booklet (You know, the one that every new player gets with their annual membership card) that it is a foul to "intentionally" jump a ball, and is NOT allowed. http://www.poolplayers.com/8-9-ball-Rules.pdf

This thread was over two pages, with everyone agreeing that you are allowed to jump a ball, with nobody mentioning the clearly stated rule. I just said forget it. Hopefully they got it figured out by now.
 
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