League Rage.

R

RobDeBank

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Now before replying to this make sure you understand everything I am trying to say very clearly because there is no need to be super defensive. I am from a small town that has a few pro's or shortstops about 30 minutes to an hour any direction... Like Adam Smith or John Morra.. etc. I don't play in leagues besides being a spare here or there although I just joined a summer league because some friends are gonna be on my team and it seemed like a fun night out. I don't care for many of the things league has to offer because as everyone knows pool has a lot to do with preference. I like 9 footers and mostly rotation games even though I just recently started playing more straight pool and learned snooker on a 12 footer this week.

This however is one thing I do not get about league, Almost everyone in this city likes to talk about it and compare league ratings. Which of course then leads to people feeling that their rating is not accurate and they feel they are better than that and so and so are rated higher but they don't play as well. A lot of people feel that league matters at all in the real world and your league ratings mean something. I don't play very well but I like gambling here and there and trying to find tourney's to play in so I can try and get better and maybe win some decent little event's maybe even knock out a shortstop or two along the way.

I guess what I am really trying to ask is (and this is a serious question) Does anyone at all actually really care about such tedious things like APA or BCA or VNEA league ratings.. or whatever the league. I thought pool was about either having fun or trying to accomplish something actually worth while like winning a good event or maybe destroying a world beater for the cheese.

Being a 9.0 or whatever a good rating is probably does not matter if you can't string racks together and play some real pool players.

Disclaimer time: I am in no way trying to send any disrespect to people who enjoy playing in leagues or have done really well in leagues. I am sure it is not easy and I am not trying to sound condescending. Any feed back on the topic would be great maybe I just don't understand clearly or don't know certain things which make me ignorant to the topic. Sorry for the lengthy post just wanted to be clear and try not to insult anyone.

Thanks.
 
I'm a relative newbie to pool in general, and leagues in particular. In my case, I enjoy my league night each week, both from a competitive basis and from a "fun night out" stance. But I am still a beginner, at least compared to the level of play of most posters here.

I only care about the Skill Level so far as a measure of my ability and improvement. Meaning that as an SL4, I compare myself to the other SL4's that I know, so far as my own improvement is concerned. Similarly, I know that if I play against someone who is an SL6 and he spanks me, that shouldn't be surprising. Whether it's actual league night, or like last night in a local 9-ball tournament, where I got beat by an SL6 and then an SL7 to knock me out. (No handicaps, just using those skill levels for reference.) The fact that they beat me didn't bother me, as they are supposed to beat me. I was more disappointed in my own play, not the fact that they played as well as they did. That's where I'll get better, improving my own play, not worrying about the Skill Level of the people I play against.

That's how I view the Skill Levels. Yes, I want to improve, so I'd like to eventually see my Skill Level go up. Not to be able to say "I'm an SL6" or whatever, but because that means that I've gotten better as a player.
 
See that's awesome that you think of it that way, it's the right attitude to have the thing that I see a lot more around here is that people want a high rating so they don't feel like other players look down on them or treat them like a banger. Me personally if someone I thought I was better than tried to talk down to me because of my league rating or whatever I would just challenge them to a money game (not that gambling is the only way to prove who is better) One thing I like about AZ is I don't hear as much about ratings instead we get so many great stories of fellow azer's beating some big names out of tourneys or money or just for nothing. Doesn't happen often but when I hear of it I always think wow I am gonna remember such and such now when he puts a post anywhere.

Keep up the good work in league though, I am looking forward to the summer league to drink a cold beer with some friends and get spanked in barbox 8 ball because I try to run around the table like earl strickland in a stop shot pattern game.

btw everyone should play snooker on a twelve footer before they die... It's so much fun and I literally don't take it serious at all I don't ever get mad when I miss and have a million laughs missing left right an center.
 
The way I play, most of them ought to look down on me! :yes:

I'm quite fortunate that I have the opportunity to play (and learn from) a number of guys in my area who are SL6's or SL7's. They might be better than that, but this is the only way I can categorize them. We are so remote that there aren't any real tournaments that any of us could play in without a several hour drive, other than with each other. So we don't have any other way to categorize their ability. I realize that covers a wide swath, but they are all that much better than the rest of us, so it works.

These guys are ALL very patient with me, very helpful, and quite willing to play with a beginner like me. They treat me just as anyone else, we are all friendly with one another. I get my beatings, and occasionally make enough shots to win a game here or there, though I expect if we were playing seriously that wouldn't often be the case. It is fun.

In my opinion, this is the way it should be. So far as pool is concerned. At least below the level of pro or top level amateur tournament players.

So yes, the Skill Level is helpful to me. And probably to others around here, if only for these reasons.
 
When I started playing league about 8 years ago I couldn't draw my ball and did not know the concept of safety play. I was a TAP 4 for a long time. I began going to the library and read and watched lots of books and videos on pool.

I got on a new team and met my Mentor Gary Helgason. He worked one on one with me free of charge for hundereds of hours. He had me write down short term goals and long term goals. Our team dissolved but we would still get together occasionally. When I became a 5 I was proud and so was he. When I became a 6 (one of my goals) I was thrilled to report that to him.

I am in BCAPL now and the rating system is completely fair. Just simple math with no complaints of sandbagging. I recently called Gary to let him know I had gone up to a 9 and had won the league MVP in my county with highest winning percentage and most break and runs and the cash prizes that go with that.

I gave Gary a sappy speech about everything he had done for me and the joy I have felt by winning and helping my team out. Moving up the rankings in league has been a fun 8 year journey that I wouldn't trade for anything.
 
Rob,

First of all, I think your post represents a good attitude to have about *questioning* in general. You spelled out what you see, how you feel about it, ask for opinions or enlightenment, and admit you may not know enough to validate your own opinion. That represents humility and respect, which are admirable qualities not always present on a forum. So right off the bat, GRATS!!

Let me tell you how I see it and maybe that will help you. I began frequenting the local bar in college just a little bit before I was "technically" allowed to be in there lol. There were 3 tables in the back and people took pool relatively seriously there (or so I thought at the time). I had really never played, but was interested. The tables were usually arranged on a weekend night so that the far table was the "good players" table, and the first table was for the novices. It was always partners 8 ball winner stays. So I gradually worked my way up to the good players table, and several times enjoyed the feeling of being king of the table for the night.

Soon the APA pool league started up there, and I was asked to be on one of the teams. I started out as a 3, and stayed there for about a season or two. I ended up buying my first cue, and began to try and learn what I could. I went up to a 4, and soon became "that 4 that shoots like a 6, I hate him!". Anyway, I really developed a love for pool, and as is my way, became a student of the game. I read everything I could, studied it, practiced it, learned it. This started about 15 years ago. About 7 or 8 years ago, I had worked my way up to a SL7. Along the way, there were players that I always thought were *way* out of my league (so to speak). All the 6's and 7's seemed like supermen on the table. However, little by little I would cross those people off my list of people I had never beaten. At this point, I am probably 1 of 2 or 3 guys who are the strongest in my league operator's area.

The point here is that throughout this process of going from total banger to low A player, I definitely did measure my progress by my skill level and the people who I could now beat that I couldn't beat before. Now granted about 5 years ago or so, I could beat ALL of those players, pretty much every time. So measuring my skill by my league was no longer meaningful. For the last 8 years or so, I have played in tournaments all over. Mainly all 9 ball tourneys, some with pro level players. I feel that I can now hang with the "A" players and win half the time. It is now rare that I play an 8 ball match without at least 1 break and run. I have run 4 racks of 9 ball and 5 racks of 8 ball, and running a 2 or 3 pack is no longer anything special (just to give you a gauge of where I'm at for speed.)

However, I'm not gonna lie...I like comparing myself with those other 2 or 3 guys in the league to see where we rank amongst each other. My league operator doesn't really care if I see my average in the computer, because he knows I'm locked as a 7, and I am the opposite of a sandbagger. I'm trying hard to turn in the very best scores I can. So I like to compare my average and win % to the other guys. It goes up and down, we are pretty close. I find that it provides me with a little bit of motivation when playing in the league. This is because sometimes I feel like I could take a nap in my match, wake up and be the winner ha ha. I want to make sure that I *DON'T* fall into this habit though, cause then when I go out and play real players, I'll be screwed with that attitude. So paying attention to the average, etc. serves as a reminder that the league can still have value for me by practicing and ingraining the habit of mercilessly CRUSHING my opponent as convincingly as possible! Now don't get me wrong, I'm a nice guy and am very respectful to my opponents. If they are not jerks, I'll happily offer them advice and even point out how they could improve their chanced of beating me. However, when I'm in my match, I'm trying to focus on the balls and playing as perfect a game as I can.

Sadly, the higher level competition outside the APA is drying up in my area. I need to drive over an hour for a decent tournament these days. In any case, I hope what I said helps put things in perspective and offers you some avenues to get value out of your league, and perhaps an appreciation of those guys who are interested in their averages. I think it would be reasonable to consider the APA or other league average a nice stepping stone, and a measure of progress up through the B level. After that, it has little meaning except to compare yourself to the other B and A players that happen to play in your area.

Hope this helps, and please--keep your great attitude about questioning!

KMRUNOUT
 
I think league ratings play one important role, aside from handicapping the league matches themselves: they give developing players a way to track their progress. Going up a level and learning to win at the higher level is a really good feeling for a player who's trying to graduate from beginner to intermediate.

-Andrew
 
Rob,

Like justadub, I too used my ranking to compare myself to others, but that comparison was only internally. I wanted to see how far up the ladder I could go and used my ranking as a way to show myself progress. I am just a banger. I also used it as a motivational tool. If I was playing a higher skill level, I would really try to push myself to see if I could beat that person. By that, I mean I would try to play as smart as I could (within my own abilities) and see what would happen. Sometimes I won, sometimes I didn't (just like everyone else, I have my up days and down days).

I think you have a GREAT attitude about how to use your skill level. I have met one or two people that thought their skill level was the end all be all of the game, and felt sorry for them because I think they are missing out on one of the true joys, and that is trying your best.

Hope this helps you along on your journey.

D
 
I'd like to start by saying thank you for the positive feedback and the well thought out explained answer. It actually does help me understand a lot and hopefully I can use your attitude going in to this summer league it will probably make me care a whole lot more and make me really want to win. I also really like hearing positive results, I am glad to hear your game improved so much playing in leagues.

I think the reason why I have a negative attitude towards league is because I always hear these stories of how pool used to be. You walk in to a pool room and you might hear that guy plays really well so you think alright time to go see how well he plays. There is more action to be had and it's the purest form of competition in my opinion, you hear some one is better than you and you go play them whether it's for money or not. You beat them consistently then someone else is after you and so on. The thing that league does in my opinion is tell people who is better than them by use a ranking system and it just scares them off. Almost everyone I play with and even gamble with are better than me but I don't mind I play them to learn how to beat them then I move on to someone else. This is like 80% of the excitement in pool for me which is why I love going out of town and playing new people. I don't want to try and paint a false image of myself I usually only play 10$-20$ sets but I can do this for hours and have a great time. I have friends that play in league and they let their stupid rating system tell them who they are, I will be like hey that guy over there is kind of cocky let's go gamble and it's like well he is a 6.5 or whatever so I can't beat him. I just think that's a bad attitude to have or it's like well I'm not that good yet and they play so much better than they think they do but they let their ranking hold them back in some ways.

Everything you said however helps me to realize it's not all bad though, you got a lot better by playing competitively in your league and it gave you that drive to play better. I guess I was just misinformed or had a negative view on league's because I didn't understand completely. I will try and remember what you said here when I play in my league this year and see if maybe I can use it for motivation to want to play harder.

Thanks again for taking the time to explain it all to me from your perspective and remind me to not play you if I come across you one day I now know your league rating :P lol jping keep shootin straight.
 
Andrew Manning said:
I think league ratings play one important role, aside from handicapping the league matches themselves: they give developing players a way to track their progress. Going up a level and learning to win at the higher level is a really good feeling for a player who's trying to graduate from beginner to intermediate.

-Andrew
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I agree and I think it's a great tool for starting players and masters alike.. I just hate when people start letting there rating tell them who they can and can't beat.
 
Sometimes people would tell me "hey, I moved up to this!" and "man this is crap I got bumped down to this". That strongly set off my urge to say "Who gives a f..." but I didn't want to seem rude. Like you Rob, I do feel a little puzzled when people care a lot about some stat that is never quite accurate.

Probably the better you get, the less it matters. I was high up in league rankings and got a little kick of pride seeing my name at the top of the stat lists. But I couldn't tell anyone off the top of my head what my rating was. I actually went an entire season not really being clear on whether you want a higher number or a lower number. The people I see sweating this are lower on the totem pole.

There's no need to overthink it or get upset about ratings. Your goal is always the same - play hard every game. If you do that then the rating will probably reflect it. If it doesn't, you're lucky... you're underrated and will have easier matches in a handicapped league. That helps your team out. If you're overrated somehow, you have a goal to work towards... to keep that rating even though you may not be there yet.
 
rackem0315 said:
Rob,

Like justadub, I too used my ranking to compare myself to others, but that comparison was only internally. I wanted to see how far up the ladder I could go and used my ranking as a way to show myself progress. I am just a banger. I also used it as a motivational tool. If I was playing a higher skill level, I would really try to push myself to see if I could beat that person. By that, I mean I would try to play as smart as I could (within my own abilities) and see what would happen. Sometimes I won, sometimes I didn't (just like everyone else, I have my up days and down days).

I think you have a GREAT attitude about how to use your skill level. I have met one or two people that thought their skill level was the end all be all of the game, and felt sorry for them because I think they are missing out on one of the true joys, and that is trying your best.

Hope this helps you along on your journey.

D
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Thank you for the positive feedback, I am really satisfied with all the great responses I am getting to this thread and will take a piece of everyone's opinions with me in to my summer league next month. I like that you said do everything you can within your own ability, that is such an important thing to remember. I miss running out sometimes because I try and do shot's I can't do at my current skill level. I definitely have to remember your post specifically next time I try to mimic that stupid corey deuel draw shot we all love for the 900th unsuccessful time. I wish I never seen that shot by the way.. it's so grosse. Thanks, your response has definitely helped. Good luck in future league seasons.
 
CreeDo said:
Sometimes people would tell me "hey, I moved up to this!" and "man this is crap I got bumped down to this". That strongly set off my urge to say "Who gives a f..." but I didn't want to seem rude. Like you Rob, I do feel a little puzzled when people care a lot about some stat that is never quite accurate.

Probably the better you get, the less it matters. I was high up in league rankings and got a little kick of pride seeing my name at the top of the stat lists. But I couldn't tell anyone off the top of my head what my rating was. I actually went an entire season not really being clear on whether you want a higher number or a lower number. The people I see sweating this are lower on the totem pole.

There's no need to overthink it or get upset about ratings. Your goal is always the same - play hard every game. If you do that then the rating will probably reflect it. If it doesn't, you're lucky... you're underrated and will have easier matches in a handicapped league. That helps your team out. If you're overrated somehow, you have a goal to work towards... to keep that rating even though you may not be there yet.
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I would like to first tell you that every single time I play pool now and fall on the 14 ball I always see your avatar in my head (not trying to sound creepy sorry lol) Getting past that though I am going try something because I liked your response here. I am going to play all summer in league the best I can and not check my stats until it is over and see where I end up. I will let you know how it goes whenever league is done ok? If it is really low though I am going to find an awesome excuse like "stupid barbox garbage.... 9 footer *rubble *rubble. This should be interesting though, thanks for the response to the thread and I will try to bite my tongue more when league stats come up around me.
 
I think Andrew pretty much got it right. League ratings mean absolutely nothing outside of league. They are a necessity to have a handicap system, and it does give the lower ranked players the opportunity to see how they are progressing through the different rankings.

Personally, I don't care what number they put on me. In fact, I don't really get too concerned with won/loss records or anything else like that.

I go to league to have fun. My goal is not necessarily to win, but it is to play my very best game every time. If my game is good enough to win, so be it. I would rather play up to my own expectations and lose, than to play like crap and end up winning anyway.

I don't play to impress others. I play for the inner satisfaction I get from performing at my best.

Steve
 
RobDeBank said:
Now before replying to this make sure you understand everything I am trying to say very clearly because there is no need to be super defensive. I am from a small town that has a few pro's or shortstops about 30 minutes to an hour any direction... Like Adam Smith or John Morra.. etc. I don't play in leagues besides being a spare here or there although I just joined a summer league because some friends are gonna be on my team and it seemed like a fun night out. I don't care for many of the things league has to offer because as everyone knows pool has a lot to do with preference. I like 9 footers and mostly rotation games even though I just recently started playing more straight pool and learned snooker on a 12 footer this week.

This however is one thing I do not get about league, Almost everyone in this city likes to talk about it and compare league ratings. Which of course then leads to people feeling that their rating is not accurate and they feel they are better than that and so and so are rated higher but they don't play as well. A lot of people feel that league matters at all in the real world and your league ratings mean something. I don't play very well but I like gambling here and there and trying to find tourney's to play in so I can try and get better and maybe win some decent little event's maybe even knock out a shortstop or two along the way.

I guess what I am really trying to ask is (and this is a serious question) Does anyone at all actually really care about such tedious things like APA or BCA or VNEA league ratings.. or whatever the league. I thought pool was about either having fun or trying to accomplish something actually worth while like winning a good event or maybe destroying a world beater for the cheese.

Being a 9.0 or whatever a good rating is probably does not matter if you can't string racks together and play some real pool players.

Disclaimer time: I am in no way trying to send any disrespect to people who enjoy playing in leagues or have done really well in leagues. I am sure it is not easy and I am not trying to sound condescending. Any feed back on the topic would be great maybe I just don't understand clearly or don't know certain things which make me ignorant to the topic. Sorry for the lengthy post just wanted to be clear and try not to insult anyone.

Thanks.
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A number of years ago I played both APA and 2 of the regional tours on a regular basis. I didn't worry abouth the handicap or rating systems either in league or on the 1 tour that had a handicap aspect to it.
I currently only play in a legaue now and once again never really worry about the handicaps outside of the 23 maximum rule.
The league, for me, is about a social event where i can go out with people I know and have a great time. I met my wife playng in the league and most of my friends are legaue players.

The legaue gives me the social aspect while maintaining a somewhat competive nature while the tours gave me the competetive part of the game and allowed me to improve. I no longer play tours anymore simply the odd legaue tournament but that has more to do with time and family than anything else.
In short, the league and the handicaps give me achance to compete and play in an relatively social enviroanment where otherwise I would not at this point.

That is why I support leaguye structure. Not everyone has the time or ebergy to play tours, or events and this keeps my game at a reasonable level while having fun doing it.
 
Rob, sounds like a good plan. Focus on the game in front of you. Don't even sweat shooting order, or how many balls are needed to win, etc. Just play the table in front of you. Difficult to put up that level of focus every week. But if it starts working for you, I bet you won't even need to look at the stats. Someone will tell you "hey, did you know you're ____?" Without even checking the stats, I bet someone will find a way of letting you know it if you somehow go to the top of the list.
 
This thread helped

Me understand why my league play has lost my interest. Six years of league play and it all came down to statistical BS! Tracking progress is a good thing until you begin the WHAT IF or YOU NEED TO DO THIS frame of mind to the table. I will be playing as a sub until I get my head on straight. Thanks
 
Rob,

Ratings - even in a league is a good thing if rated fairly as possible.

I know that there are generally 2 types of league players.

1) Social: to come out and play few games with friends and hang out. It doesn't matter if they win or loose as long as having a good clean fun;)

2) Completive: these are the die hard players who will compete locally and nationally.

Whether you are type one or two, it's a human nature to seek improvements or goals of ourselves. Generally, people like compliments and going up in rating is a form of compliment.

Rating system was generated as a positive tool for even strangers to match up and have a competitive fun with the game we love but it has been abused by many greedy people who only cares about winning.

S.
 
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