learning english

northman

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Hi all, I have been serious about learning to play better for about 6 months or so, my game is improving (more slowly than I'd like sometimes). I've just started playing around with english, primarily adding just a touch of outside to my cut shots. Seems like my shotmaking percentage with OSE is at least as good as without, so with a bit more learnin it should just keep getting better.

So are there any tips or insight you guys (and gals) are willing to share that will help me out? I have a technical background, so I can talk about throw and deflection and swerve if need be, but also more general advice is welcome. Some types of questions that come to mind:

How often to you use english on a shot, if cueball control is not the main issue?
Are there certain angles of cuts where you do or do not use english, as a rule?
Do you use parallel english, backhand, or maybe a touch of both?
Is there a maximum length shot where you rule english out?
Any other bits of wisdom?
 
northman said:
Hi all, I have been serious about learning to play better for about 6 months or so, my game is improving (more slowly than I'd like sometimes). I've just started playing around with english, primarily adding just a touch of outside to my cut shots. Seems like my shotmaking percentage with OSE is at least as good as without, so with a bit more learnin it should just keep getting better.

So are there any tips or insight you guys (and gals) are willing to share that will help me out? I have a technical background, so I can talk about throw and deflection and swerve if need be, but also more general advice is welcome. Some types of questions that come to mind:

How often to you use english on a shot, if cueball control is not the main issue?
Are there certain angles of cuts where you do or do not use english, as a rule?
Do you use parallel english, backhand, or maybe a touch of both?
Is there a maximum length shot where you rule english out?
Any other bits of wisdom?


Personally, I think the key to using english is to not think about it. In the beginning, you just want to get comfortable with it. It's tough because you spend a moment in your preshot routine, looking at the cue-ball but try not to focus on it too much. Just get down, use a natural stroke and allow whatever is going to happen to happen. The balls will eventually drop for you. Just don't spend too much time worrying about it and you'll make the adjustments naturally.
 
From the end of the pool table table....

Shoot just the cue ball at the far center diamond 10 times with a dead center hit.

Then shoot 10 times more using left english.

Notice how the cue ball does not hit the center diamond when using english?

Before using english, I would search for the terms; Predator, low deflection, squirt, backhand english, and aim and pivot. Then read all you can about this.

Search here...
(Enter a specific term in the lower "Search this group" box at the following link.)
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.sport.billiard?lnk=sg
 
northman said:
I've just started playing around with english, primarily adding just a touch of outside to my cut shots. ---- So are there any tips or insight you guys (and gals) are willing to share that will help me out? ---How often to you use english on a shot, if cueball control is not the main issue?
----Any other bits of wisdom?

I was always taught, unless you have to use English, to throw an object ball into the pocket or add some special effects to the cue ball, don't use it. The normal use of English is to modify the cue ball's travel after impact with the object ball.

Draw is not considered English, neither is Follow. Any kind of side spin is considered to be English. Follow is just a cue ball with a speedy roll to get where you want it to go. Draw is a reverse spinning cue ball that may or may not affect the path of the object ball. Learn to make the ball & let the cue ball roll to position on the next shot.

Fancy shooting is great, but it may not win for you. Good Luck.
 
northman said:
Hi all, I have been serious about learning to play better for about 6 months or so, my game is improving (more slowly than I'd like sometimes). I've just started playing around with english, primarily adding just a touch of outside to my cut shots. Seems like my shotmaking percentage with OSE is at least as good as without, so with a bit more learnin it should just keep getting better.

So are there any tips or insight you guys (and gals) are willing to share that will help me out? I have a technical background, so I can talk about throw and deflection and swerve if need be, but also more general advice is welcome. Some types of questions that come to mind:

How often to you use english on a shot, if cueball control is not the main issue?
Are there certain angles of cuts where you do or do not use english, as a rule?
Do you use parallel english, backhand, or maybe a touch of both?
Is there a maximum length shot where you rule english out?
Any other bits of wisdom?
My personal philosophy is work more on your speed control than using english. A shot that is made using only vertical axis english will always have better odds of dropping than a shot with even a tiny bit of english applied.

I may use a little "natural english", (half tip of running english) just to help the cueball round the table, but other than that I stay on the vertical plane 80% of the time. I also cut the object ball to the big side of the pocket, otherwise known as "overcutting" to minimize the effect of "cueball throw".

I focus on only hitting a shot as hard as is required to make the pot and get the position. I focus on choosing the angle the next shot requires before making a shot, and plan how to get that angle without using sidespin. If sidespin is required I try to use half a tip and no more.

Work the natural path of the cueball. Too often people don't trust their ability to roll a cue ball past where the object ball is and back up into position. Sometimes they try to stun the cueball and force it to go against it's natural path. A good follow stroke, draw stroke and punch stroke are the truly important things to work on.

Just remember, using outside english, (running english) will add a lot of speed to the cueball and widen it's natural path. Inside english, (reverse english) will reduce the angle and kill the cueball's speed. If you need to make the cueball roll a great distance with reverse english, you need to stroke it very firmly which lowers accuracy and increases the risk of miscueing. If you use too much force with running english it is very easy to over roll the cueball past position.

Willie Mosconi said that 85% of shots can me made hitting the center axis only, and what would he know right?.

There's a great article that may help you out, it really did wonders for my game. http://www.azbilliards.com/tomsimpson/tom8.cfm
 
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northman said:
How often to you use english on a shot, if cueball control is not the main issue?
15-20% of the time, but only when absolutely needed. Other than for "throwing" an object ball or making a bank shot that would otherwise be off, english should only ever be used to control the cueball. It usually does nothing to improve the object balls roll, (see above exceptions), only benefits the cueball. I spend more time trying to talk myself out of using it in reality. It's a double edged sword, and usually does more harm then good. People tend to overuse it because they think that's what the game of pool is about. I thought it was about sinking balls into a pocket until there were no more to sink, silly me!. :D
northman said:
Are there certain angles of cuts where you do or do not use english, as a rule?
As a rule, I don't use any english when I'm making a very long shot, whether that means the cue/object balls are far apart or just means the object ball has far to go before the pocket. Whatever english you put on the cue applies the opposite english to the object ball. This can really have a negative effect on longer shots escpecially if you don't account for the deflection.

If I'm making a bank shot I use only vertical axis spin and play at pocket speed. if I need to make a bankshot that isn't "on", (for example make the object ball curve to the right), I will put left english on the cueball. Every action has an opposite and equal reaction. Playing bank shots too hard changes the angle, even if you measured it up correctly.
northman said:
Any other bits of wisdom?
English is best used at close proximity to the object ball and at medium speed. If you have to play violently hard to make the ball do what you require you are playing against yourself.

The cloth is always trying to "rub" the english off, the greater the distance between cue & object ball, the harder you must stroke to keep the cueball "on line". If you play a long shot with a lot of english softly, you will get a great deal of drift.

As a general rule, try to avoid mixing your englishes as much as possible. If you need bottom, use only bottom. If you need follow, use only follow. If you need side, use center/side. Mixing english makes for more unpredictable outcomes and increases miscueing.

Whenever you are playing a very difficult shot, make it easier on yourself and take all english off. Simplify the shot, play center ball and settle for less than perfect shape on your next shot. If you sacrifice the pot by using extreme english, what good does perfect shape get you?. If you make the shot and get poor position, you at least have the opportunity to come up with a great out, (or a great safety). Bottom line, you're still at the table.
 
northman said:
Hi all, I have been serious about learning to play better for about 6 months or so, my game is improving (more slowly than I'd like sometimes). I've just started playing around with english, [...]

This was my response to a "when do I use english" question in RSB a few years ago:

Aiming With English

You're asking an excellent question that unfortunately has a bit of a
complicated answer. *First, a shot hit with sidespin is a fair amount
tougher than the same shot hit without sidespin, so consider adding
english only when the object ball is fairly close to the pocket and the
cueball is not too far from the object ball. *The primary objective of the
english is to alter the angle of the cueball rebounding off the cushion. *

There are three new things to consider when hitting with sidespin:
spin-induced throw, swerve, and squirt. *

spin-induced throw: *when a spinning cueball hits an object ball straight
on, the cueball rubs across (not "grabs") the object ball and "throws" it off
course a little bit. *This is a small effect (due to the friction between
the balls), but it's not small enough to be ignored. You will see this
effect plain as can be if you set up a shot with the object ball six feet
from the pocket and the cueball just four or five inches from the object
ball. *

swerve: *IF a cueball is hit with sidespin using a level stick, it will
move in a straight line. *However, even though as-level-as-possible is the
goal, the stick is never really level. *You are always hitting down on the
ball at least a little. *Hitting down on the cueball when applying
sidespin generates "swerve." *The cueball actually curves to the side you
are hitting on. *If you hit easy, the cueball will curve a little bit
within the first few inches and then move in a straight line along the new
direction. *If you hit harder, it will go further before curving. *If you
hit harder still, or if the object ball is close, it may *get it's job
done before curving. *Adjusting for this is complicated and depends on the
cloth on the table. *This is the reason I advised against using english
when the cueball has far to travel before hitting the object ball. * You
will see swerve plain as can be just by hitting the cueball not too hard
the length of the table with an elevated cue and sidespin.

squirt: *(also called cue-ball deflection) This is a tough one, in part
because it is different for different sticks. *Imagine you hit a cueball
at 9:00 with a completely level cue (so there's no swerve), and you got to
the aim by lining up for a centerball hit and moving the whole cue
parallel till the tip is pointing at the 9:00 spot (your second
suggestion). *IFF there was no squirt, the cueball would go in exactly the
same direction as the centerball shot would have (parallel to the line of
the stick). *However, because the front of the stick on sidespin shots is
driven even more off to the side during the stick-ball collision, the
cueball must go off to the other side a bit. (Every action has an equal
and opposite reaction, or conservation of sideways momentum, or whatever
you want to call it). *The result is the cueball goes off in a straight
line that is angled off a bit (as much as 3 or 4 degrees) from the line of
the stick. *The magnitude of this effect is different for different
sticks.

So how about aiming? *For the conditions I recommended as ripe for
english, squirt is the main problem. * The move-the-stick-parallel
approach (your second suggestion) is not right for any cue. *Your first
suggestion *(pivot about the butt of the cue) is close to correct for the
extreme lowest squirt sticks available. *The correct aim for most sticks
would be achieved by beginning with a stick lined up centerball, and then
pivoting the stick about some point between your bridge hand and the joint
of the cue. *The optimum point is different for different sticks. *If it
is, say, 15 inches back from the tip, then you would apply left english by
leaving that 15-inch point fixed and moving the butt of the cue to the
right until the tip is where you want it. * Many sticks "pivot points" are
not too far behind the bridge hand for a longish bridge. *So some people
actually aim centerball and then pivot about their bridge hand. *This is
called aim-and-pivot (or sometimes backhand english). *

Most strong players do not use any such system, in part because it's
awkward to pivot about the correct point, and in part because there are
swerve and throw to consider as well on many shots. *Many strong players
who have been using the same cue for a long time have probably hit 100,000
shots with english using that cue. *They develop a memory *(an intuition)
of how to adjust depending on the the shot and the speed, etc. *In fact
there are many strong players who would not be able to explain coherently
these effects and what they depend on, but they have a working knowledge
of what they need to do in actual situations. *Some people swear by the
intuition/working knowledge as the true path to salvation and are
downright antagonistic of efforts to break it down and understand the
different effects. *But the correct opinion [ :-)] is that enlightenment
is a harmonic convergence of the yin and yang of knowledge and intuition.
Your knowledge and understanding is a guide for developing that intuition
and is profitably kept close by.

--
mike page
fargo
 
mikepage said:
So how about aiming? *For the conditions I recommended as ripe for
english, squirt is the main problem. * The move-the-stick-parallel
approach (your second suggestion) is not right for any cue. *Your first
suggestion *(pivot about the butt of the cue) is close to correct for the
extreme lowest squirt sticks available. *The correct aim for most sticks
would be achieved by beginning with a stick lined up centerball, and then
pivoting the stick about some point between your bridge hand and the joint
of the cue. *The optimum point is different for different sticks. *If it
is, say, 15 inches back from the tip, then you would apply left english by
leaving that 15-inch point fixed and moving the butt of the cue to the
right until the tip is where you want it. * Many sticks "pivot points" are
not too far behind the bridge hand for a longish bridge. *So some people
actually aim centerball and then pivot about their bridge hand. *This is
called aim-and-pivot (or sometimes backhand english). *
--
mike page
fargo


You didn't cover everything. Can you explain what happens if you aim off center to begin with and move your backhand so that the tip is now anywhere on the vertical center? How does that affect squirt, etc.?
 
drivermaker said:
You didn't cover everything. Can you explain what happens if you aim off center to begin with and move your backhand so that the tip is now anywhere on the vertical center? How does that affect squirt, etc.?

When you say "aim off center to begin with," are you talking aiming parallel off center, or is your back hand pivoted to get it off center to begin with?

Jeff Livingston
 
chefjeff said:
When you say "aim off center to begin with," are you talking aiming parallel off center, or is your back hand pivoted to get it off center to begin with?

Jeff Livingston


It ain't the latter...
 
drivermaker said:
It ain't the latter...

Let me guess: The cueball would squirt down the [normal, straight hit] aiming line, and depending on the angle of the cue, would curve away from you.

Why might a player wish to do this?

Jeff Livingston
 
drivermaker said:
You didn't cover everything. Can you explain what happens if you aim off center to begin with and move your backhand so that the tip is now anywhere on the vertical center? How does that affect squirt, etc.?

If you're hitting on the vertical center of the ball, there is no sidespin, no squirt, and the cueball goes in the direction the stick is pointing. The cueball doesn't care how you got to that aim.

mike page
fargo
 
chefjeff said:
Let me guess: The cueball would squirt down the [normal, straight hit] aiming line, and depending on the angle of the cue, would curve away from you.

Why might a player wish to do this?

Jeff Livingston


Efren and Bustamante have the tip of their cue ON the CLOTH at various times when they're aiming and setting up. It could also be on the right or left side of the CB. Yet, when they strike the CB they may in fact be hitting it ABOVE horizontal center and on the opposite side from where they initially lined it up.

Why might a player wish to do this?

I've always liked the name of an old TV/movie actor by the name of
CLU GULAGER...http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0347656/

but I even like yours better...CLUELESS JEFF.
 
BrianK74 said:
My personal philosophy is work more on your speed control than using english. A shot that is made using only vertical axis english will always have better odds of dropping than a shot with even a tiny bit of english applied.



Willie Mosconi said that 85% of shots can me made hitting the center axis only, and what would he know right?.

It's too bad people are forever misleading posters by quoting Willie's misunderstood sentence. Willie Mosconi played straight pool. And even at that, Willie used english as often as any other player. If he played 9-ball, it would be pretty obvious that he would use even more english as compared to straight pool.

I've always said that those who say "don't use english" or similar are doomed for mediocrity. The vast majority of good to great players know how to use english. When someone asks about the use of english, I think that "stay vertical" is about the worst advice to give. People who want to know the nuances of english have the right to know. For those that have troubles using english, they may actually find some good information from posters who are willing to share what they know about using english.

Swerve first
Squirt next
Throw last (very last)

Fred <~~~ IMO, of course
 
When I first learned ...

English, I did it the old tried and true method.

I divided the cue ball into 12 equal parts, and
every shot I shot on the Pool table, I shot 12 different
times using the english from one of the 12 sections
of the cue ball. I made mental notes about the shot,
how the object ball reacted, and where the cue ball
went after each shot. Tedious, yes, but it is a good
learning tool, and one that stays with you.

Being able to get shape, even today, is considered one
of my strengths in playing. I am old school now, but I
tell you, sometimes the old school method of learning
will beat out all of those 'new' methods that claim to be
so good.

Kind of like all the 'new' exercise methods today, that are
just 'reworked' versions of what Joe Weider and Charles
Atlas advocated 50 years ago.
 
Fred Agnir said:
It's too bad people are forever misleading posters by quoting Willie's misunderstood sentence. Willie Mosconi played straight pool. And even at that, Willie used english as often as any other player. If he played 9-ball, it would be pretty obvious that he would use even more english as compared to straight pool.

I've always said that those who say "don't use english" or similar are doomed for mediocrity. The vast majority of good to great players know how to use english. When someone asks about the use of english, I think that "stay vertical" is about the worst advice to give. People who want to know the nuances of english have the right to know. For those that have troubles using english, they may actually find some good information from posters who are willing to share what they know about using english.

Swerve first
Squirt next
Throw last (very last)

Fred <~~~ IMO, of course
Something tells me you only read my first paragraph and the Willie Mosconi sentence. :D

Kidding aside, I did an experiment over a 5 month period. I stopped using any kind of sidespin english, I only used vertical axis spin. I was still able to get the position I required but made far more balls and won far more games.

I know what you'll reply to this, that I didn't understand how to use english in the first place. And you'd be dead wrong.

Fact of the matter is, english is a double-edged sword. For every benefit english offers, there are just as many negative reactions.

Most of the time a player needs english because they left themselves a bad angle. Most of the time that same bad angle was caused by the english on the previous shot. Do you see my double-edged sword point?.

When a person misses a shot, it is rarely because of bad sighting or bad cueing. Not compensating for complications resulting from using english is almost always the culprit.

You personally may be able to counter-react against most of these "negative reactions", but no one can avoid every single one. I chose to simplify my game in order to increase my odds of potting/winning. Increased odds means increased success.

If using a lot of english works for you personally, congratulations, but please don't say that my advice is bad simply because you disagree. I'm offering another viewpoint which has been game tested and does hold validity.

Truth be told, over time so many players start using english out of habit rather than out of necessity. English should always be considered as a last resort. Why would someone want to reduce their chances for success unless they absolutely needed to do so?.

As far as Willie's point, straight pool or not - to this day it still holds true to any billiard sport. Maybe you could try my little experiment?. You may gain an appreciation of where I'm coming from, I'm not just talking out of my butt.

During my "experiment", I learned a lot about how to achieve angles without english. Would you consider this to be a bad thing?. After all, most people need english to get those angles and I do it with vertical axis cueing.

To this day I still use english, (as my post states), but only when the benefits far outweigh any possible negative outcomes.

I was never trying to say that Northman shouldn't bother to learn english, just the opposite in fact. I was simply attempting to say that english should be taken with a grain of salt. To respect it's good and it's evils, and to realize the trade-offs of using it. I wasn't explaining when to use english, only when not to use it. The distinction is important.

Northman doesn't have to heed my advice, but it won't kill him to be exposed to it. I'm assuming he's a big boy and doesn't need you to protect him from my "subversive" viewpoints.

I do respect where you are coming from, and agree with most of what you stated. However, people who use english inappropriately are doomed to mediocrity as well. The door of fate swings both ways.

Peace my brother, we can both live in the same world with different ideas! :)
 
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BrianK74 said:
When a person misses a shot, it is rarely because of bad sighting or bad cueing. Not compensating for english is almost always the culprit.

Not trying to offend you but you are absoloutely wrong here. I strongly suggest you research this a bit further and you will see that bad cueing and improper alignment/aiming are by far the main cause for anyone to miss.

On the subject of using sidespin, it's used on a majority of shots by professionals. Just because you didn't use sidespin for a few months and your game improved doesn't mean that applies to everyone. Good players use sidespin because they know how to use it. They use the center vertical axis of the cueball when it gives them better position than sidespin would, plain and simple.
 
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LastTwo said:
Not trying to offend you but you are absoloutely wrong here. I strongly suggest you research this a bit further and you will see that bad cueing and improper alignment/aiming are by far the main cause for anyone to miss.
Matter of personal opinion and experience. Doesn't mean either one of us is right or wrong. With an amateur player, yes stroke mechanics can be the culprit. With the pros, it's almost always related to extreme english.

LastTwo said:
On the subject of using sidespin, it's used on a majority of shots by professionals.
My point still remains, those very same professionals only use english when it is absolutely needed. This is my point, the one everyone is missing. A pro who can get perfect position without the aid of english has the edge over a pro who requires english.

LastTwo said:
Just because you didn't use sidespin for a few months and your game improved doesn't mean that applies to everyone.
Which is precisely why I congratulated Fred on his preference/success with english. Whether this experiment applies to "everyone" is irrelevant, but for someone to try it will not ruin their game. It may help them in fact. Using english on every single shot may not apply to everyone either, but that's not my point. Selectivity is my point.

LastTwo said:
Good players use sidespin because they know how to use it. They use the center vertical axis of the cueball when it gives them better position than sidespin would, plain and simple.
"Good players" think the other way around I'm afraid. Good players use sidespin only when they can't get the shape they need using centerball hits. Centerball hits are far easier to make and are therefor the preferred shot. If one can't get where they need to go using center, they resort to english. Automatically using english shows a lack of creativity.

My last point is this, (as I've grown tired of this post). What works for me may not work for you, but it doesn't make it wrong. Offering someone advice that is considered outside the usual realm of thinking is not detrimental to that person.

Give this article a glance http://www.azbilliards.com/tomsimpson/tom8.cfm
 
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ESPN ran the Archer-Hohman match the other day, where Johnny gets shut out 7-0.

Near the end of game six, Archer kicked at a 7-8 combo and missed. As he gets back to his chair, you could hear him say "every time I use English, it squirts off."

Anyone else catch that? Was he using his regular shaft, or trying something new?
 
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