Legal or foul?

M

MitchAlsup

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
A ball is frozen to the rail. The Cue ball rolls up to it, there is a definate double click sound at the moment of contact, the object ball remains on the rail, while the CB rolls away. Is this a legal shot or a foul?

{I believe that it is a definate foul if there was not the double click sound at the moment of impact.}
 
my understanding was that when a ball is frozen, driving THAT ball to THAT rail doesn't count as a good hit.

If you skim off it and hit that rail, you're good.

If you drive / bank that ball to another rail, you're good.
 
In this case, I do not think the sound it makes makes a difference to the call. If the object ball was called frozen and the cue ball doesn't hit a rail after contact, or the object ball doesn't hit a different rail (or any other ball for that matter hits a rail), it is a foul.

Dave
 
Due to compression of the rails, you can not be certain the OB left the rail before the second contact with the CB. Therefore, saying the second click is definite proof that the OB left the rail & was sent back to it by the second contact with the CB is not necessarily vaild.

EDIT: A wonderful paint pic might make the words make sense.
Double-click.jpg
 
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.

while were on the topic.

If I hit the cue ball off the rail and back and make contact with the 8ball.(playin 8ball and I'm on the 8) Is that a foul? So if I'm kicking at the 8 either the 8 or the CB must be driven to another rail?
 
I've always understood the frozen ob rules as ....the ob must be driven to another rail or the cueball must hit a rail.

One of these must occur for it to be a legal hit.
 
Since the OB was considered froze to the rail, and never left the rail, it never re-contacted the rail.

The 'Double click' sound can be caused by the cue ball hitting the OB, which then compresses the rail, and then hit's the CB as it's coming off the rail.

To be a legal hit, one of the following has to happen.
1. After contact, a ball must be pocketed.
2. After contact, the CB must contact any rail.
3. After contact, any other ball, must contact any rail.
4. After contact, the OB that was froze to a rail must leave the rail it is froze against, and then it can contact any rail. (Including the one it was originally in contact with, if it hits another ball that is not froze to the rail and it caroms back into the original rail.)

See: http://www.bca-pool.com/play/tournaments/rules/rls_gen.shtml
3.38 OBJECT BALL FROZEN TO CUSHION OR CUE BALL
This rule applies to any shot where the cue ball’s first contact with a ball is with one that is frozen to a cushion or to the cue ball itself. After the cue ball makes contact with the frozen object ball, the shot must result in either:

(a) A ball being pocketed, or;

(b) The cue ball contacting a cushion, or;

(c) The frozen ball being caused to contact a cushion attached to a separate rail, or;

(d) Another object ball being caused to contact a cushion with which it was not already in contact. Failure to satisfy one of those four requirements is a foul. (Note: 14.1 and other games specify additional requirements and applications of this rule; see specific game rules.) A ball which is touching a cushion at the start of a shot and then is forced into a cushion attached to the same rail is not considered to have been driven to that cushion unless it leaves the cushion, contacts another ball, and then contacts the cushion again. An object ball is not considered frozen to a cushion unless it is examined and announced as such by either the referee or one of the players prior to that object ball being involved in a shot.
 
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Maybe...maybe not

Here's the rule...according to WPA...

8.4 Driven to a Rail
A ball is said to be driven to a rail if it is not touching that rail and then touches that rail. A ball touching at the start of a shot (said to be “frozen” to the rail) is not considered driven to that rail unless it leaves the rail and returns. A ball that is pocketed or driven off the table is also considered to have been driven to a rail. A ball is assumed not to be frozen to any rail unless it is declared frozen by the referee, the shooter, or the opponent.

I would say that if you can see the OB come off the rail and then return to the same rail...it's a good hit. But that probably didn't happen in this case since you are relying on sound...so I'd go along with Mosconiac (and the rest) here...foul...a simple double kiss won't prove it.

FWIW, I think if you're going to hit it hard enough to be able to see it come off the rail, you'll probably hit a rail with the CB anyway.

L8R...Ken
 
MitchAlsup said:
A ball is frozen to the rail. The Cue ball rolls up to it, there is a definate double click sound at the moment of contact, the object ball remains on the rail, while the CB rolls away. Is this a legal shot or a foul?

{I believe that it is a definate foul if there was not the double click sound at the moment of impact.}
Click to expand...

Did either you or your opponent state the ball was frozen to the rail prior to the shot?
 
Apocalypse2012 said:
while were on the topic.

If I hit the cue ball off the rail and back and make contact with the 8ball.(playin 8ball and I'm on the 8) Is that a foul? So if I'm kicking at the 8 either the 8 or the CB must be driven to another rail?
Click to expand...

It depends.

You said:
If I hit the cue ball off the rail and back and make contact with the 8ball.(playin 8ball and I'm on the 8) Is that a foul?
Click to expand...

It is a foul if, after contact, neither the OB, CB, or another ball goes to a rail.

So if I'm kicking at the 8 either the 8 or the CB must be driven to another rail?
Click to expand...

Yes, after contact either the CB, the 8 ball (in this case) or another ball must hit a rail.


Hope this helps.
 
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