Legal shot on frozen ball ?

M

mamics

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Hi All,

Lets assume we're playing 8-ball (see pic).
Cueball is frozen to the 10-ball.
Its stripes turn to shoot. (legal object ball is the 10-ball - the frozen ball)

With respect to the BCA rules :-
Is it a foul to play a stroke in the direction of "A" ? (double hit / push shot foul)

Is it legal to play a stroke in the direction of "B" ? (hopefully avoids double hit / push shot)


BCA rules state...
"However, if the cue ball is touching an object ball at the start of the shot, it is legal to shoot towards or partly into that ball (provided it is a legal target within the rules of the game) and if the object ball is moved by such a shot, it is considered to have been contacted by the cue ball."
http://c.ymcdn.com/sites/bca-pool.co...anuary2008.pdf

Though its a bit unclear if you may ONLY shoot PARTLY into the frozen ball ? (direction "B")
or can you blast straight into the frozen ball with a full ball hit ? (direction "A")

If A is a foul & B is legal - where is the limit between the two & how would one objectively rule on it ? (45 degrees from parallel to shot line 'A' perhaps is the magic limit ?)

Sorry if this is a noob question...
Thanx
Cheers.
 

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Both shots are legal according to BCAPL rules and also according to the World Standardized Rules.
 
Excellent - thanx for clearing that up.
I am surprised (its news to me ?) - but it's a simple & 'argument proof' rule at least. (arguing over whether its frozen or not is still possible though - heh)
Cheers.
 
Bob Jewett said:
Both shots are legal according to BCAPL rules and also according to the World Standardized Rules.
Click to expand...

Yes, but if the game was 10-ball and that 10 moved even the slightest bit it would be a foul.

I understand the difference between a clean hit that occurs when the balls are frozen compared to the double-hit that occurs when there is a slight separation, but I don't like the rule that allows you to hit straight through frozen balls. I think you should always have to hit away so that the OB doesn't move. Why should a player be penalized because he got a roll that leaves the CB 1/32" away instead of frozen to the OB when the result of the hit in both cases would be basically the same?
 
Sloppy Pockets said:
I think you should always have to hit away so that the OB doesn't move.
Click to expand...

That's the rule in snooker.. but if you had that rule in rotation pool, everytime the cue ball were frozen to the lowest ball, people would just shoot the game ball in for the win.
 
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victorl said:
Wut? :confused:
Click to expand...

Maybe not? I'm probably confused myself. I thought moving the 10 would constitute hitting the ball that wasn't "on" in rotation order. If not, then I think it's one more reason you shouldn't be allowed to hit through a frozen CB.
 
Sloppy Pockets said:
Yes, but if the game was 10-ball and that 10 moved even the slightest bit it would be a foul.



I understand the difference between a clean hit that occurs when the balls are frozen compared to the double-hit that occurs when there is a slight separation, but I don't like the rule that allows you to hit straight through frozen balls. I think you should always have to hit away so that the OB doesn't move. Why should a player be penalized because he got a roll that leaves the CB 1/32" away instead of frozen to the OB when the result of the hit in both cases would be basically the same?
Click to expand...


Because one situation results in a double hit and the other does not. The rule is simply: the CB must be stricken exactly one time.

All the special situations described regarding frozen balls and nearly frozen balls are only in the rule book at all to help clarify if the CB was struck exactly once.

Btw, why do you say If the game was 10 ball the shot in question would be a foul? I wasn't sure if you were being sarcastic or not? You obviously know how to shoot in close quarters from the video in the other thread you made...
 
iusedtoberich said:
Btw, why do you say If the game was 10 ball the shot in question would be a foul? I wasn't sure if you were being sarcastic or not? You obviously know how to shoot in close quarters from the video in the other thread you made...
Click to expand...

Maybe a lack of complete understanding of the rules?

"However, if the cue ball is touching an object ball at the start of the shot, it is legal to shoot towards or partly into that ball (provided it is a legal target within the rules of the game) and if the object ball is moved by such a shot, it is considered to have been contacted by the cue ball."
Click to expand...

According to the bolded phrases, isn't the 10 considered to have been contacted by the CB before it contacted the 1-ball (the legal target)?
 
Sloppy Pockets said:
Maybe a lack of complete understanding of the rules?



According to the bolded phrases, isn't the 10 considered to have been contacted by the CB before it contacted the 1-ball (the legal target)?
Click to expand...


Well yes:) I thought you were implying the shot would be a foul in 10 ball because of the hit, not because it's not the lowest ball on the table. Time for bed...
 
Sloppy Pockets said:
Yes, but if the game was 10-ball and that 10 moved even the slightest bit it would be a foul.

I understand the difference between a clean hit that occurs when the balls are frozen compared to the double-hit that occurs when there is a slight separation, but I don't like the rule that allows you to hit straight through frozen balls. I think you should always have to hit away so that the OB doesn't move. Why should a player be penalized because he got a roll that leaves the CB 1/32" away instead of frozen to the OB when the result of the hit in both cases would be basically the same?
Click to expand...

I'm a bit confused what you are saying here. If you hit away from the ball so the OB does not move, that is a foul as you are not hitting the ball. If you are frozen to the 10 and you shoot the same shot, it's legal even if it's the last ball you are shooting.

Or are you saying it would not be legal because there are other balls on the table? If so that does not really make sense posting this as the game in the example is 8 ball and obviously if you hit the 10 first but have the 9 or something on the table it's a foul not matter what stroke you use.

It would be like someone asking if going to bed at 10 pm was OK or too late, and you said "if you go to bed at 10 but in someone else house after you kill them and steal their house that would not be OK". Totally different situations and not related to the question.
 
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mamics said:
With respect to the BCA rules :-
Is it a foul to play a stroke in the direction of "A" ? (double hit / push shot foul)
Click to expand...
As others have pointed out, it is legal to use a normal stroke into a frozen-ball shot. And, FYI, this sort of shot does not create a double hit, nor is it a push shot.

Fore more info, including videos showing why these sorts of shots are legal, see the frozen-ball shot resource page.

Enjoy,
Dave
 
The game in question was eight-ball, read the first sentence of the OP's question.
iusedtoberich said:
Well yes:) I thought you were implying the shot would be a foul in 10 ball because of the hit, not because it's not the lowest ball on the table. Time for bed...
Click to expand...
 
The key question here is "are the cue ball and object ball actually frozen"? If so, you can shoot straight through with no foul.

The way the balls are sitting there is actually no shot to a pocket. The best shot may be to thin the 10 and play safe...just sayin :)
 
mamics said:
Hi All,

Lets assume we're playing 8-ball (see pic).
Cueball is frozen to the 10-ball.
.
Click to expand...

Sloppy Pockets said:
Yes, but if the game was 10-ball and that 10 moved even the slightest bit it would be a foul.
Click to expand...

Sloppy Pockets said:
Maybe a lack of complete understanding of the rules?



According to the bolded phrases, isn't the 10 considered to have been contacted by the CB before it contacted the 1-ball (the legal target)?
Click to expand...

You smoking some funny stuff man. Not legal anywhere funny stuff. The game is 8 ball. Yes it is legal to shoot directly into the 10 and not double hit. That is assuming you don't follow through 2 feet and double hit the cue ball.

Now if this was 10 ball, which it's not. There is no question that you must shoot away from the 10. If you shoot the cue ball away from the 10 ball, and the 10 ball still moves by settling into the felt it's not a foul.
 
claymont said:
The game in question was eight-ball, read the first sentence of the OP's question.
Click to expand...

"iusedtoberich" is aware of that. I'm the one that brought up whether it would be a legal hit or not in 10-ball given the same layout shown in the OP. Which I don't believe it would be, nor should it be.

Sorry, I didn't mean to cause so much confusion, nor did I intend to derail an 8-ball thread. I looked at this as a "frozen ball thread" and was looking for a way to get clarification regarding what conditions hitting into a frozen ball would constitute either a foul or a legal hit. Just cuz there's no double-hit or push doesn't necessarily make it legal to shoot at it.
 
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